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The Strange Thing about Creationism

camanintx

Well-Known Member
Since they're finding new ones, I can't tell ya the exact count. What's the current as of now?
As of June 2006, 40 of the 42 families of chimpanzee endogenous retroviruses were found to have orthologs in humans.

Identification, characterization and comparative genomics of chimpanzee endogenous retroviruses

The odds of independent insertions into similar locations is....pretty likely I'd say, with the Gorilla in the room in agreement.
It's not just the number of homologous ERV's we share with chimps that proves common ancestry. The mutations which have accumulated in these ERV's also follow the same nested hierarchies and exhibit proportional ratios of discontinuity. Something that can only be explained by decent with modification from a common ancestral species.

ERVs - Evidence for the Evolutionary Model
 

Shermana

Heretic
As of June 2006, 40 of the 42 families of chimpanzee endogenous retroviruses were found to have orthologs in humans.

Identification, characterization and comparative genomics of chimpanzee endogenous retroviruses


It's not just the number of homologous ERV's we share with chimps that proves common ancestry. The mutations which have accumulated in these ERV's also follow the same nested hierarchies and exhibit proportional ratios of discontinuity. Something that can only be explained by decent with modification from a common ancestral species.

ERVs - Evidence for the Evolutionary Model

As I showed with Parvoviruses, they develop the same way in the same fashion with different species, they are engineered to attach and insert the same ways.
 

Amill

Apikoros
That is exactly the claim I am making, and it is a rebuttal to the OP.

I am saying that in any other situation, such a theory filled with such gaping holes and inexplainable phenomena wouldn't be given a single credence of respect, but since it supports their agenda, they rally to it like it one of those Pakistani trains covered with people.
Lol

What agenda is a bible believing christian biologist such as Ken Miller, college professor of Brown(i think), following exactly? What about the many millions of other Christians who believe the theory of Evolution to be a more accurate explanation of the diversity of life? Why would they purposely pursue an anti-biblical explanation for life? You really need to delve a little deeper into the issue before you make claims like that lol.

Baby chickens use their "teeth" to break out of their shell. I don't see anything on that video which shows anything conclusive on why a dinosaur's skeleton resembles a bird's. They even went out of their way to make up the "Archaeoraptor" to try to fill in the gap. There's only so many ways to make a weight-bearing hand, and each specimen would require massive random mutations to support entire bone-structure changes. Let me know when you show the transition of blow-holes. I will return to this.
Lol so there's one huge hoax and now all the fossil specimens we have found showing characteristics of both birds and tetrapods are fakes too? And since all evolutionary biologists are following some agenda so they don't have to believe in genesis(so you claim), it must have been creationists that debunked the fossil right?! The finding and naming of the specimen in a popular journal instead of a peer reviewed journal ****** a lot of people off, and even like 5 or 6 months after the release of the news of the find Nat Geo said the fossil could be a composite and started to investigate it. But I'm sure you think Microraptor and Archeopteryx are fakes too lol.
 
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Shermana

Heretic
CC351: Archaeopteryx is a fake.

The feather imprints of the London Archaeopteryx specimen were forged. Evidence for this is that
  • The feather impressions appear only on the slab, not on the counterslab.
  • The surface texture is different between the feathered and unfeathered areas.
  • Slightly elevated "blobs" appear which are not always matched by depressions on the counterslab.
  • The feathers show "double strike" impressions.
  • Hairline cracks which pass through both bones and feathers could have formed by slight movements to the slab after the cement was in place.
  • Under magnification, the limestone appears different in fossil and non-fossil areas of the specimen.
  • Unknown material appears within the matrix in the fossil area.
  • An x-ray chemical analysis showed chemical differences, including silicon, sulfur, and chlorine in the fossil area that were not present in the non-fossil area.

These points indicate that the feather impressions were made by someone impressing feathers in a cement-like matrix that was added to the stone. Without the feathers, Archaeopteryx would be identified as the dinosaur Compsognathus, not as a transitional fossil. Source:

Watkins, R. S., F. Hoyle, N. C. Wickramasinghe, J. Watkins, R. Rabilizirov, and L. M. Spetner, 1985a. Archaeopteryx -- a photographic study. British Journal of Photography 132: 264-266.
Watkins, R. S. et al., 1985b. Archaeopteryx -- a further comment. British Journal of Photography 132: 358-359,367.
Watkins, R. S. et al., 1985c. Archaeopteryx -- further evidence. British Journal of Photography 132: 468-470.
Hoyle, Fred, N. C. Wickramasinghe and R. S. Watkins, 1985. Archaeopteryx: Problems arise -- and a motive. British Journal of Photography 132(6516): 693-695,703.
Hoyle, Fred and C. Wickramasinghe, 1986. Archaeopteryx, The Primordial Bird, Christopher Davis, London.
Spetner, L. M., F. Hoyle, N. C. Wickramasinghe and M. Magaritz, 1988. Archaeopteryx -- more evidence for a forgery. British Journal of Photography 135: 14-17
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
The point is that Endogenous viruses can have independent, near-exact similar effects across a wide range of animals in similar locations.
????? None of the material you linked to said that at all. All it said was that more types of viruses can become endogenous than at first thought. Nothing in that leads to "Therefore, shared ERV's among humans and other primates is mere coincidence".

When you show proof of actual transitions from fish and reptiles to birds, and the root ancestor of the Platypus and Echidna, let me know.
Ah yes, keep trotting those goalposts right out of the stadium. But, I'll take your moving target as a concession that the original one was hit.

So tell me, what sort of fossil specimens would you expect to see if basal reptiles evolved from ancient fish-like organisms? And what sort of patterns in the overall record would you expect to see?

What has been proven so far is exactly what I advocated when I made my first 3 links of Lamarckianism, which is Epigenetic transition.
Um...where? And if so, why are you wasting your valuable time in religious message boards instead of getting this paradigm-shifting material published? Good Lord man, get off your butt and get to work!! :yes:
 

Shermana

Heretic
????? None of the material you linked to said that at all. All it said was that more types of viruses can become endogenous than at first thought. Nothing in that leads to "Therefore, shared ERV's among humans and other primates is mere coincidence".


Ah yes, keep trotting those goalposts right out of the stadium. But, I'll take your moving target as a concession that the original one was hit.

So tell me, what sort of fossil specimens would you expect to see if basal reptiles evolved from ancient fish-like organisms? And what sort of patterns in the overall record would you expect to see?


Um...where? And if so, why are you wasting your valuable time in religious message boards instead of getting this paradigm-shifting material published? Good Lord man, get off your butt and get to work!! :yes:

You hit the target the Micro-evolution by showing this "Complete fossil record" of a subspecies from the original species. One issue of my rebuttal is that the Macro-evolutionists distort the goalposts by referring to Sub-speciation ("Micro") as evidence of Macro-theory.

Indeed I've shown that it's "mere coincdence" for one Endogenous virus to affect the structures of other species similarly, let the reader decide.

Show something about getting out of the water and being able to bear weight. Tiktaalik couldn't bear any weight, it was for water skimming. The hind legs of Rhodocetus prove that it was more of a land-walker. Show the evidence for the aquatic-land transition for both fish and cetaceans.

The links I posted are not my own writings, I am merely relaying the data.
 
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Shermana

Heretic
So why didn't you copy the response?

Figured you would pick one to go with.

Here's the Creationist's arguments to issues raised, show what's wrong with their disputes.

Problems with theory

There are numerous factual reasons why the dinosaur-to-bird evolution doesn't make logical sense. For example, dinosaurs, being reptiles, have scales which are folds in the epidermis. Birds have feathers which grow out of follicles. Feathers and scales are completely different in make-up and appearance. There are no known fossils presenting a transitional stage of a scale to a feather. For this even to be possible new genetic information would be necessary. Scientifically, the only way to change genetic information would be through a mutation. A major flaw in this theory is that mutations have never been recorded to increase genetic information, rather they just reduce it. Scales to feathers aren't the only characteristics needed for a dinosaur to evolve, it must also gain flight muscles, hollow bones, and a complex lung system.[2]
The digits in the forelimbs of a theropod dinosaur and those in the wings of birds are also different. Though at first scientists believed that they both shared the same digits, I-II-III, it has recently been proven otherwise. New findings have shown that birds actually have digits II-III-IV in their wings unlike their supposed prehistoric counterparts. While the theropods lost digits IV and V, the birds lost digits I and V. Through evolution the theropods would have had to morphologically regenerate. While evolving into a bird, they would have lost digit I and then regain digit IV.[2]

Deinonychus with feathers and without, two different views of the same type of dinosaur exposed in the museum.


The avian lung is structurally unlike any other organism's. It is considered to be an irreducibly complex system, in which every part must function properly in order for it to work. The lung is dependent on both the parabronchi system and the air sac system for full working capabilities. This poses a problem for the step-by-step process of evolution because there is no possible way for an avian lung to survive the process with only certain parts. Through evolution all three systems would not be in full working order for each organism, and if not, the organism wouldn't be able to survive. The vertebrate lung would not be able to evolve fast enough into an avian lung for an organism to live.[2]
Fossils

When dinosaur fossils are extracted, some are found very detailed. For some fossils thought to be feathered dinosaurs, there are dark filaments found with them. Although they could possibly be actual feathers, a scientist cannot rule out other speculations. For example these filaments could be plant remains buried alongside the animal. During an in depth study of a fossil they found that through ultraviolet imaging there was a specific contrast in the colors of the bones and the supposed feathers. This tells that the 'feather' and the bones could have come from two completely different origins.[4]
There is also a chance that these filaments could be actual bird feathers fossilized alongside the dinosaur. At the same location where the dinosaur fossils were found there were also preserved bird fauna that was discovered there. Thus it is assumed that there would have been many nests. Since birds create their nests out of feathers it is postulated that during the time a natural disaster could have stirred the nests and distributed the feathers throughout the area causing them to land amongst the dinosaurs and therefore be fossilized with them. It might also be said that small dinosaurs could have also used bird feathers to build their nests, thus dying with their nests could mean they were fossilized with the birds' feathers.[4]
Research by Alan Feduccia and colleagues in 2007 was published in Proceedings of the Royal Society B. They found that the fibers associated with these Chinese fossils is consistant with collagan fibers found in sharks, modern-day reptiles, ichthyosaurs and dinosaurs as well as individual mammalian collagen fibrils.
Other evidence from the fossil record against feathered dinosaurs is the fact that fossil birds (e.g. Protoavis) appear in the Triassic ~80 million years before the predicted origin of birds. Many scientists reject the credibility of Protoavis because it was found disarticulated, but one of the fragments was a keeled sternum, which is only found in strong flying birds.
The fossil find is also corroborated by late Triassic Bird Tracks (Ricardo N. Melchor, Silvina de Valais & Jorge F. Genise, Nature 2002). There is also evidence of bird tracks in the Permian Hermit Shale, which predate the Triassic tracks (Gilmore 1927) and tracks from the Carboniferous of Nova Scotia (Sternberg 1933).
Biblical View

From a Biblical standpoint it is known that all flying creatures were created on the fifth day of creation. It is also stated in the Bible that all land animals, dinosaurs included, were created on day six. Therefore, they were completely different organisms from the very beginning. Creationists must be careful of the media and what is printed because they are usually biased towards evolution and against religion and thereby God. There is nothing stated in the Bible that says that dinosaurs could not have had feathers back in prehistoric times, but there is currently no evidence for a definitive statement. Even if they there were such a thing as feathered dinosaurs, there is still no proof that feathers would have evolved from scales, for they are completely different.[5]
From a Biblical view, the previously stated fossilized feathers in amber are likely to have come from a chick and then encased in amber during the Great Flood of Noah recorded in Genesis.[1]
Examples

Archaeopteryx

Main Article: Archaeopteryx
Archaeopteryx fossil, supposedly the link between reptiles and birds.
 
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Shermana

Heretic
Feathered dinosaur - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science

The archaeopteryx is one of the most famous and well-known specimens in the dinosaur-to-bird evolutionary theory. By evolutionists it is said to be one a primary example of a dinosaur in a transitional phase. Others believe it to be merely another hoax, like that of the archaeoraptor in which pieces of different animals were put together to form another species.[6]
Leading experts in both the creationist and evolutionary worlds agree that the archaeopteryx is indeed a true organism. Dr. David Menton, a creationist anatomist, shows how it is a true bird with feathers capable of flight. He says it is neither a transitional form nor a feathered dinosaur, but a bird. Dr. Alan Feduccia, an evolutionist, is a bird expert at the University of North Carolina. He too agrees that the archaeopteryx is a perching bird, not a dinosaur like many others claim.[6]
Menton highlights tiny bumps that were found on the fossilized bones proving that there were, in fact, feathers attached to them by ligaments. These bumps would be impossible to create on a forgery when they were not thought to be found in the first place. It would take more than feathers to just appear on a dinosaur, they must be embedded in the bones. Feduccia also discovered a unique dendritic patterns formed in the limestone rock that the fossils were found in. These patterns are formed by precipitating manganese dioxide. These designs were found on both slabs of the fossil and when the photograph negatives were compared, the dentrites corresponded with each other. This proves that the fossil is authentic because the dentrites had to form before the stone was split.[6]
Recent discoveries have also deepened the authentication of the fossils and disproved the hoax theory. The skeletons found have pneumatized vertebrae and pelvis containing a cervical and abdominal air sac. In modern times, birds have five air sacs. It also proves that the complex avian lung had already developed in what was said to be the earliest bird, putting to question the "transitional phase". For creationists, it helps to support the Biblical standpoint that birds were created as birds and they were not meant to evolve from another organism. New computer tomography scanning gives scientists a look at the brain and shows how, although smaller than modern birds', they are three times as large as a dinosaurs and similar to that of birds. Also their ears share another similarity such as the arrangement of the cochlea length and semicircular canal proportions. The archaeopteryx was also found to have large optic lobes that are necessary for visual data when flying.[6]
Caudipteryx


This is a Caudipteryx fossil.


Dated at 120 -136 millions of years, Caudipteryx was a flightless bird.[7]
Protarchaeopteryx

Dated at 120-150 millions years, Protarchaeopteryx was a flightless bird.[7][8]
Sinosauropteryx and Sinocalliopteryx

Dated at 140 - 120 millions years, Sinosauropteryx and Sinocalliopteryx were dinosaurs. The "feathers" were called frayed collagen fibers by evolutionist Feduccia, a claim described as "without merit" by other evolutionists, thus demonstrating even evolutionists don't agree. However, it should be noted collagen fibers are thick and furry, while these dinosaurs have a branching integument, which is probably a muscle fiber.[9][8]
Microraptor gui


This is a Microraptor Gui, notice the feather-like markings.


Dated at 128-124 million years ("Early Cretaceous"), Microraptor gui was a four winged animal. If it is not a fake, it would seem to be a type of gliding bird (or perhaps a bit like a flying squirrel). This is supported by the three misidentified birds given above. It is also supported by the fact that for this animal to glide it would need to spread its hind legs in a manner not possible for a dinosaur.
There are reasons to question the validity of this find. All but one of the Microraptor gui fossils were purchased from a dealer. Given the proven fake fossil business in China, such fossils are suspect without extensive study, such as X-Ray and under UV light. The one fossil acutely found by the discoverers of Microraptor gui, had only one feather, and there seems to be some doubt about it actually being part of the fossil, thus its provisional status as a 'bird'.[10][11]
Shuvuuia

August 15, 1999. A small flightless bird with badly preserved integument. Chemical analyzes have supported these as feathers, but the conclusion reached was that Shuuvia was a bird. [12]
Gigantoraptor erlianensis

Dated at 70 million years, Gigantoraptor lacks any material evidence of feathers. Claim of feathers rests on presumed relationship to oviraptorosaurs. Gigantoraptor does not even fit the evolutionist prediction that dinosaurs shrank as they evolved feathers, since the fossil is 16 feet tall and weighed an estimated 1.5 tons in life. Discovered in China.[13][14]
Velociraptor

Main article: velociraptor

Evolutionists have recently claimed velociraptor had feathers because of 'quill-knobs'.However, if you were to study these 'quill-knobs' under a high-power electron microscope then you would find that they are found in other extinct reptiles,like Leiocephalus eremitus, and that they don't actually show feathers and they are naturally occurring phenomena formed in Rigormortis.Atheists, however, are currently either unaware of this or are hiding it to prove their point.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
You hit the target the Micro-evolution by showing this "Complete fossil record" of a subspecies from the original species.
Again, all you're showing is that you don't read the material you demand to be shown (even the text copied into the forum). The complete fossil record I linked to and pasted information about was of the evolutionary history of an entire family.

Also, as I said before, I know you consider yourself the world's foremost authority in evolutionary biology, but even so that doesn't give you the power to redefine common terminology and expect the rest of us to follow along.

Indeed I've shown that it's "mere coincdence" for one Endogenous virus to affect the structures of other species similarly, let the reader decide.
LOL! You think so, huh? So in your mind, posting information that shows more types of viruses can become endogenous than previously thought = "the shared ERV's between humans and other primates are merely coincidence"?

Show something about getting out of the water and being able to bear weight. Tiktaalik couldn't bear any weight, it was for water skimming. The hind legs of Rhodocetus prove that it was more of a land-walker. Show the evidence for the aquatic-land transition for both fish and cetaceans.
You didn't answer the questions. Again, what sort of fossil specimens would you expect to see if basal reptiles evolved from ancient fish-like organisms? And what sort of patterns in the overall record would you expect to see?

The links I posted are not my own writings, I am merely relaying the data.
Yet the ones that are published don't support your argument, and the ones that do are merely to creationist websites. Thus, there is a clear opportunity to assimilate this information into a paper and get it published. Again, what are you waiting for?

Figured you would pick one to go with.

Here's the Creationist's arguments to issues raised, show what's wrong with their disputes.
You didn't answer the question. I personally don't care what some random creationist website says about a fossil. I asked you why you didn't post the "response" portion of the TalkOrigins article on archaeopteryx. Your reason was......?
 

Shermana

Heretic
I asked you earlier to show the exact evidence from your quote that is the evidence of this "Whole family" you speak of. I will post the article chopping out the first half of blah blah Darwin was great blah blah and starting with the data (unless you feel there is something in the first half). Point out where it shows the evidence of the whole transition conclusively .


foram_work.gif


ma == million years before present varieties and their ability to withstand environmental pressures eventually lead to populations that are so profoundly different that they become reproductively incompatible with populations other than themselves. And voil�, a new species is born.
Darwin termed the process gradualism, a theory that invokes the slow accumulation of small evolutionary changes over a large period of time, as a result of the pressures of natural selection. What Arnold and Parker found is almost a textbook example of gradualism at work.
We've literally seen hundreds of speciation events," syas Arnold. "This allows us to check for patterns, to determine what exactly is going on. We can quickly tell whether something is a recurring phenomenon--a pattern--or whether it's just an anomaly. This way, we cannot only look for the same things that have been observed in living organisms, but we can see just how often these things really happen in the environment over an enormous period of time.
Such a revelation flies in the face of latter-day rethinking of Darwinian evolution, which during the past 20 years has tended to gravitate toward a new theory called punctuated equilibrium. First postulated in the early 1970s by paleontologists Niles Eldredge and Stephen J. Gould, this idea refutes the central premise that great amounts of time are necessary to create new species.
Punctuated equilibrium holds that new species may arise fairly quickly (over thousands instead of millions of years) from small animal populations that somehow become isolated. Intermediate stages are too fleeting to become fixed in the fossil record--thus the conspicuous gaps or so-called missing links. (Darwin blamed the "imperfection in the geological record" for the gaps in the fossil record.)
But in the near-perfect record exhibited by the forams studied at FSU, the highly touted Eldredge-Gould theory of punctuated equilibrium apparently doesn't work. The record reveals a robust, highly branched evolutionary tree, complete with Darwin's predicted "dead ends"--varieties that lead nowhere--and a profusion of variability in sizes and body shapes. Transitional forms between species are readily apparent, making it relatively easy to track ancestor species to their descendants. In short, the finding upholds Darwin's lifelong conviction that "nature does not proceed in leaps," but rather is a system prepetually unfolding in extreme slow motion.
In the hands of less scrupulous observers, the foram record may have been construed to support Gould's hypothesis about the suddeness of speciation. Darwin would have been shocked to find out just how fast the great family of forams churns out new species, says Parker. Through dating analysis, he and his colleague showed that the forams could produce a whole new species in as little as 200,000 years--speedy by Darwinian standards. "But as fast as this is, it's still far too slow to be classed as punctuational," says Arnold.
Other curiosities are beginning to emerge from the probe into the forams' past. One finding is being described--perhaps too hastily--as disproving Cope's Rule, named for its synthesis by American paleontologist Edward Drinker Cope. His time-honored evolutionary principle holds that, within a group, animals teend to start out small and increase in size over time.
"We've found out that apparently, lineages don't exactly work that way," says Arnold. "Many of the forams start out small, and essentially stay that way until extinction. Others do manage to wander into dramatically larger sizes, but they're the rare ones."
This find doesn't necessarily contradict what Cope said, only what many scientists think he said, says Parker. "Cope's observation was simply that there are a few extremely large examples (of individuals) in any given lineage, and these examples always occur at the later stages of the organism's development. And that's apparently true. But our findings show that the vast majority of forams start small and end small, even though the mean size increases somewhat due to a few very large specimens. As you get more and more species evolving, some of them eventually manage to get moderately to very large, but most of them don't increase in size at all."
It may be in what the foram record suggests about how life copes with mass annihilation that eventually draws the most attention to the FSU paleontologists' work. The geologic record has been prominently scarred by a series of global cataclysms of unknown, yet hotly debated, origin. Each event, whether rapid or slow, wreaked wholesale carnage on Earth's ecology, wiping out countless species that had taken millions of years to produce. Biologists have always wondered how life bounces back after such sweeping devastation.
One of the last great extinctions occurred roughly 66 million years ago and, according to one popular theory, it resulted from Earth's receiving a direct hit from a large asteroid. Whatever the cause, the event proved to be the dinosaurs' coup de grace, and so wiped out a good portion of the marine life--including almost all species of planktonic forams.
This period of massive death, which ended the Cretaceous Period, ushered in the modern chapter of biological development. Earth entered the new era, the Cenozoic, with a wide range of ecosystems virtually devoid of life (and thus competition between species), yet quite fertile and primed for repopulation.
Some observers, perhaps following Darwin's lead, have envisioned a sedate repopulation sequence, with speciation occurring at an immensely slow rate. None of the species die off until their numbers begin to saturate the environment, exhausting its capacity to sustain such proliferation of life.
Other scientists have theorized, but never been able to demonstrate, that in the absence of competition, an explosion of life takes place. The evolution of new species greatly accelerates, and a profusion of body shapes and sizes bursts across the horizon, filling up vacant spaces like weeds overtaking a pristine lawn. An array of new forms fans out into these limited niches, where crowding soon forces most of the new forms to spin out into oblivion similar to sparks from a bonfire.
The ancient record of foram evolution reveals that the story of recovery after extinction is indeed busy and colorful. "What we've found suggests that the rate of speciation increases dramatically in a biological vacuum," says Parker. "After the Cretaceous extinction, the few surviving foram species rapidly evolved into new species, and for the first time we're able to see just how this happens, and how fast."
As the available niches fill up with these new creatures, the speciation rates slow down, and the pressure from competition between species appears to bear down in earnest. The extinction rate then rises accordingly. This scenario, says Arnold, suggests that the speciation process is sensitive to how fully packed the biosphere is with other species, not the number of individuals. Ecologists, in referring to a given environment's ability to sustain life as its carrying capacity, generally mean the natural limit, in shear numbers, of individual organisms that any environment can support, as opposed to the number of different kinds of organisms or species. "This is an intriguing concept--a species carrying capacity, so to speak," says Arnold. "This implies that the speciation process is sensitive to how many spesies are already out there."
Perhaps if life were any less strange, its fundamental processes any simpler to fathom, scientists would not be so sensitive about their inability to write the definitive book on evolution. It may well be in the abyssal depths of the mystery itself that scientists find their innate compulsion to explain things magnified.
Exactly what new light the findings of Arnold and Parker shed on the evolutionary riddle as a whole is still unclear. Punctuated equilibrium can be a real process impinging on the evolution of other groups of organisms. Critics may argue that, while the FSU findings are interesting, they apply only to a rather peculiar organism and therefore do little to unmask the grander, biological scheme of things.
Arnold and Parker concede that evolution may in fact be little more than a collection of developmental options, all tailored along the same lines, presented in haphazard fashion before a sea of struggling life. One option may work splendidly for this organism, and fail miserably for that one.
"It's very likely that there are going to be some differences between species in the way evolution works," says Arnold. "There are particular guiding principles, however, that we believe should work for all spesies."
No doubt the relentless search for a better understanding of how life came to be will lead scientists into many ecosystems not yet known or fully explored. Scientists might do well to follow the fossil trail, no matter how hard to track, to its timeless beginnings in the sea.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Again, all you're showing is that you don't read the material you demand to be shown (even the text copied into the forum). The complete fossil record I linked to and pasted information about was of the evolutionary history of an entire family.

Also, as I said before, I know you consider yourself the world's foremost authority in evolutionary biology, but even so that doesn't give you the power to redefine common terminology and expect the rest of us to follow along.


LOL! You think so, huh? So in your mind, posting information that shows more types of viruses can become endogenous than previously thought = "the shared ERV's between humans and other primates are merely coincidence"?

I have proven that viruses can specifically target the same kinds of systems on multiple species, Parvoviruses are not the only form, but they are a basis in example of how a single-strand DNA can specifically target a specific location.


You didn't answer the questions. Again, what sort of fossil specimens would you expect to see if basal reptiles evolved from ancient fish-like organisms? And what sort of patterns in the overall record would you expect to see?


Yet the ones that are published don't support your argument, and the ones that do are merely to creationist websites. Thus, there is a clear opportunity to assimilate this information into a paper and get it published. Again, what are you waiting for?


You didn't answer the question. I personally don't care what some random creationist website says about a fossil. I asked you why you didn't post the "response" portion of the TalkOrigins article on archaeopteryx. Your reason was......?

If you don't even want the factual issues raised on a Creationist website just because of its source, then I guess you concede on the assertions and claims and they go uncontested. Let the reader decide.

What are you talking about? I posted links to the Lamarckian Epigenetic arguments not because they agreed with my conclusion but because they show the current standing of the basis of my conclusion and that they are showing that Darwin was...wrong.


http://www.chd.ucsd.edu/seminar/documents/Fodor.Chapter3.pdf

An interesting Randi forum discussion on it.

Epigenetics. "What if everything you knew about evolution is wrong"? [Archive] - JREF Forum
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
What exactly do you think "hundreds of speciation events" refers to? Surely you're not expecting something like "We saw one species give rise to an entire new family in one reproductive event", are you?

Can you show me any other taxa in which "hundreds of speciation events" occur over such a long period of time, yet all the descendant species are in the same genera as the original ancestor? And did you read the actual paper?
 

Amill

Apikoros
Lol why would you use a source for the claim that provides the debunking along with it? Did you read through the response? There's also more than one Archeopteryx specimen...

I bolded the particular response that I like to the fake allegation.
Response:


  1. There are nine other Archaeopteryx fossils discovered at different times and places under well documented conditions. At least six of these also have unequivocal feathers (Charig 1986; Wellnhofer 1993; Mayr et al. 2005). On the Maxburg specimen, the feathers continue under the bones and are overlain with dendrites that sometimes form within bedding planes, precluding the possibility of forgery (Charig 1986). In addition, several other feathered dinosaurs have been discovered.
  2. Tiny fractures, infilled with calcite, extend through both feathers and bones, showing that they have the same source. They also match perfectly from slab to counterslab, proving that the two fit together (Charig 1986). These fractures are invisible to normal vision; a nineteenth-century forger would not even know they existed, much less be able to replicate them.
  3. The "double struck effect" on the counterslab is due to the fossilization method. Feather-degrading bacteria grew under the feathers, causing the sediments beneath to lithify, and so preserving a hardened feather impression. When the feathers decayed away, the sediments above pressed down to create a cast of the surface below (Davis and Briggs 1995). Evidence of this process, including lithified bacteria, is visible under high magnification and could not plausibly be forged.

    Other lack of detailed impressions results from the Archaeopteryx body resting on a flat surface without sinking into it much. The bulk of the fossil projected above the sea floor into the sediments that settled around and over it. When the shale split along the original seafloor surface, the upper part contained the bulk of the fossil, while the lower part showed only the impression which the body made on the sea floor. This pattern is typical of Solnhofen fossils. (Swinburne 1988)
  4. The difference in surface texture in the area of the fossils is due to the impression of the animal body (Charig 1986).
  5. The elevated "blobs" are natural irregularities. There are none which don't have corresponding depressions on the counterslab. The two halves fit together well except where one surface has been destroyed by subsequent preparation. (Charig 1986)
  6. The double-strike impressions are not imprints; they are underlying feathers. A double-strike impression would be harder to forge than a single impression.
  7. The hairline cracks are infilled with calcite both in the original slab and in the area Spetner claims was cement. Plus, the cracks match between the slab and counterslab (Charig et al. 1986). None of this would be possible if the cracks formed after a cement layer were applied.
  8. Differences in appearance are due to different resolutions used in the SEM photography (Nedin 1997).
  9. The unknown materials are clearly not within the limestone matrix (Spetner et al. 1988, Figs. 4b-f). The carbonate grains on top of them are simply dust.
  10. The chemical differences between the fossil and non-fossil areas are likely due to residues of preservatives applied to the fossil areas. (Nedin 1997)
 
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Jose Fly

Fisker of men
If you don't even want the factual issues raised on a Creationist website just because of its source, then I guess you concede on the assertions and claims and they go uncontested. Let the reader decide.
First, any 10-year old with a computer can Google and link to creationist websites. The fact that you don't even appear to understand the contents of the links to legitimate scientific sources speaks for itself. Second, what "reader" are you referring to? In case you haven't noticed, there's a pretty strong consensus opinion about you in this forum, and it ain't good.

What are you talking about? I posted links to the Lamarckian Epigenetic arguments not because they agreed with my conclusion but because they show the current standing of the basis of my conclusion and that they are showing that Darwin was...wrong.

http://www.chd.ucsd.edu/seminar/documents/Fodor.Chapter3.pdf
That excerpt from the book says nothing about Lamarck. And if you honestly think throwing out the term "epigenetics" means you're on to something that the rest of us aren't aware of, you're more delusional than I thought.

Yeah great...so what? Again, it seems more like you've latched on to a new buzzword and think by repeating it over and over, you're making yourself appear intelligent. Just a hint...it isn't working. :no:
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
I smell newhope
It's possible that NewHope/Astrid is back under a new name, but I'm not sure. The pattern of posting links that don't support his/her arguments is the same, but other than that, I don't see any other similarities. But, I'll keep my eyes open.

Off to bed now. :sleep:
 

Shermana

Heretic
First, any 10-year old with a computer can Google and link to creationist websites. The fact that you don't even appear to understand the contents of the links to legitimate scientific sources speaks for itself. Second, what "reader" are you referring to? In case you haven't noticed, there's a pretty strong consensus opinion about you in this forum, and it ain't good.


That excerpt from the book says nothing about Lamarck. And if you honestly think throwing out the term "epigenetics" means you're on to something that the rest of us aren't aware of, you're more delusional than I thought.


Yeah great...so what? Again, it seems more like you've latched on to a new buzzword and think by repeating it over and over, you're making yourself appear intelligent. Just a hint...it isn't working. :no:

If you can't actually dispute their claims, anything else is a cop-out.

If the issue of the use of the word "evolution" between observed Micro and Macro wasn't so blurred I wouldn't keep using it, it's like you haven't read anything I posted.
 

Amill

Apikoros
There are numerous factual reasons why the dinosaur-to-bird evolution doesn't make logical sense. For example, dinosaurs, being reptiles, have scales which are folds in the epidermis. Birds have feathers which grow out of follicles. Feathers and scales are completely different in make-up and appearance. There are no known fossils presenting a transitional stage of a scale to a feather.
1. There's a lot of debate around whether or not dinosaurs can really be classified as reptiles, or whether or not they were even cold-blooded. Many think they were warm blooded or had some temperature regulation.
2. Even birds have scales.
3. American Museum of Natural History | Press Release
- if dinosaurs already had primitive feathers there would be no need of a scale -> feather change from dinosaurs to birds at that point in time.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/03/090318-new-dinosaur-feathers.html
So when exactly did dinosaurs develop feathers and how? I don't know, but the evidence suggests feathers were already present before the transition to flight.

A major flaw in this theory is that mutations have never been recorded to increase genetic information, rather they just reduce it.
1. CB102: Mutations adding information
2. http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/15/8/931.full.pdf

Scales to feathers aren't the only characteristics needed for a dinosaur to evolve, it must also gain flight muscles, hollow bones, and a complex lung system.[2]
1. Therapods had hollow bones
Theropod Dinosaurs
2. There's evidence of respiratory similarities between therapod dinosaurs and birds.
Evolution of the respiratory system in nonavian theropods: evidence from rib and vertebral morphology (Emma Schachner) - Academia.edu

The digits in the forelimbs of a theropod dinosaur and those in the wings of birds are also different. Though at first scientists believed that they both shared the same digits, I-II-III, it has recently been proven otherwise. New findings have shown that birds actually have digits II-III-IV in their wings unlike their supposed prehistoric counterparts. While the theropods lost digits IV and V, the birds lost digits I and V. Through evolution the theropods would have had to morphologically regenerate. While evolving into a bird, they would have lost digit I and then regain digit IV.[2]
http://www.nature.com/news/2009/090617/full/news.2009.577.html?s=news_rss
Some new info to take in.
2 Quote from article on possibilities
The species, a ceratosaur named Limusaurus inextricabilis, is a beaked and herbivorous early theropod with two remarkable characteristics: a reduced first digit and a metacarpal (lower finger bone) at the base of the second digit that matches those found at the base of the first digits in tyrannosaurids and dromaeosaurids1. These two features suggest that the first digits in late theropods are in fact the second digits, the researchers report today in Nature. We believe that late theropod dinosaurs "had digits 2, 3 and 4, but that these have long been misidentified as digits 1, 2 and 3", says Xu.
or birds could actually have digits 1 2 and 3
If the tissue that forms the second digit is bombarded by genes telling it to form in the shape of a first digit, it will appear to be a first digit - but growing in the location where a second digit normally forms. And experimental evidence suggests this is happening inside modern bird wings, Wagner says.
 
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CaptainBritain

Active Member
You get credit for actually presenting something that I can pick apart, I don't see how that video shows that bears came from the same ancestor or how that fossil proves a common ancestor specifically, but I will return to this later.

It shows via fossils and DNA that bears, cats and dogs and the host of creatures that fall in the dog like and cat like branches have a common ancestor ie were not started with specific kinds, still waiting for you to return to this unless I missed the post, if you didnt see, then watch again with your brain in gear this time.
 
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