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The Strange Thing about Creationism

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Beneficial is all relative to the environment..........

Similar to the Nylon Eating Bacteria. Not only is this a Beneficial Mutation to the bacteria it also qualifies as observed Evolution as well as observed speciation. Additionally it fits the creationist terms (micro AND macroevolution)
 

Gunfingers

Happiness Incarnate
Oh, come now, we all know that macro-evolution can be defined as "a degree of inherited variation that has not been observed in real-time, which is the only way to obtain evidence", so obviously we lying "evolutionists" are still just blowing smoke!
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Oh, come now, we all know that macro-evolution can be defined as "a degree of inherited variation that has not been observed in real-time, which is the only way to obtain evidence", so obviously we lying "evolutionists" are still just blowing smoke!


One of the things that's been amusing throughout the latter portion of the thread is the use of the word "macroevolution"....It's not even something that was brought up before shermana joined the discussion. It's not even something that anyone here, who accepts the facts of evolution, subscribes to. These terms dubbed by creationist make them appear uneducated and weakens their position in the eyes of those who are familiar with the mechanisms of evolution.....:sad:
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
It's unfortunate the degree to which creationists have twisted the term macroevolution. As if redefining to the point of ridiculousness will suddenly make it stop happening.

wa:do
 

Astrid000

Member
Op doesnt have to do anything, creationist take care of that on their own




religious brainwashing???

creationist have no valid replacement hypothesis let alone any theory at all.

creationist have ZERO evidence to base belief




you want people to believe your ranting then you need to come up with another hypothesis on how every living thing came to be the species they are today.

Then watch us tear it down to shreds in seconds with reason and logic and education

Outhouse, you appear also to be ranting from a truly ignorant stance.

The various Creationists have models not unlike your own. The debate between new or old earth is no different than the out of Africans and the multiregionalists the debate about the importance of genetic drift etc etc. All believe in evolution but interpret the evidence differently.

In particular the YECS have their own models and science.

Below is a link to Baraminology where the so called human line is differentiated from ape.
Baraminological Analysis Places Homo habilis, Homo rudolfensis, and Australopithecus sediba in the Human Holobaramin - Answers in Genesis

Baraminology—Classification of Created Organisms

Below is one on creationist dating methods.

Isochron Dating

YECs can use the Baramin system also and use discontinuity systematics as well.

YECs particularly do not need complicated models such as evolutionists do. They need models to show a young earth, which they have eg Isochron dating methods. They need a system of classification, which although still being developed, is well on its way to providing a creationist classification system. It is really no worse off compared to the state of TOE being in continual flux as to the how, when and why of the theory.

So if you are looking for a complicated model such as TOE, it is no wonder you have never seen one. YECs do not need to show ancestry to bacteria and that saves alot of theoretical work and resulting complications.

I have no idea why other faiths follow their teachings. However for YECs they believe in the bible because it is amazingly accurate in relation to the knowledge of the day eg earth is a circle, the earth is not held up by an elephant etc, hygiene principles reflected in the law, etc, and demonstrates Divinity as the basis for it. The bible writers took no glory for themselves and did not become rich out of the preaching work, unlike the majority of other prophets. Practicing what you preach is a good place to start looking for a true spiritual guide rather than a fruit cake.

So to say ......
"creationist have no valid replacement hypothesis let alone any theory at all.
creationist have ZERO evidence to base belief", is very erroneous and demonstrates some ignorance around the state of creationist sciences.

Creationists accept what has been observed but deny that what has been observed will lead to macroevolution.

Regardless of your unwillingness to accept creationist hypothesis and models, to say 'they have none' is simply a demonstration of your lack of knowledge or inability to remember or understand any that you have seen.

I have given you some links, so now you should be aware of it, at least.
 
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Shermana

Heretic
One of the things that's been amusing throughout the latter portion of the thread is the use of the word "macroevolution"....It's not even something that was brought up before shermana joined the discussion. It's not even something that anyone here, who accepts the facts of evolution, subscribes to. These terms dubbed by creationist make them appear uneducated and weakens their position in the eyes of those who are familiar with the mechanisms of evolution.....:sad:

http://www.macroevolution.net/ Not quite a Creationist site.

http://www.discovery.org/f/118

http://www.nhm.ac.uk/hosted_sites/paleonet/paleo21/mevolution.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/VIMacroevolution.shtml
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article//evoscales_02

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB902.html
"Microevolution and macroevolution are different things, but they involve mostly the same processes" The last part of the sentence is where the "Theory" comes in, and the word "Mostly".

http://www.ridgenet.net/~do_while/sage/v1i4f.htm
http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0737_Macro_vs._Micro_Evol.html





Amazon.com: Genetics, Paleontology, and Macroevolution (9780521005500): Jeffrey S. Levinton: Books

Amazon.com: Macroevolution: Pattern and Process (9780801857355): Professor Steven M. Stanley: Books

At the water's edge: macroevolution ... - Google Books



Defining Macroevolution & Microevolution - Basic Definitions of Macroevolution & Microevolution "Minor" cough.
 
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Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony

None of this changes what I said. I know what "Macroevolution" is and when it was originally coined but none of these links change the fact that in this particular thread the term was not brought up by anyone here who accepts the facts of evolution. No one here subscribes to how you have been presenting it nor the label you have been using to describe those who accept evolution (e.g. "macroevolutionist").....:sad:
 

Shermana

Heretic
Please explain exactly the differences between the way I've presented it and the authors of these books with the word "Macroevolution" use it. Along with "Microevolution".
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
WTF is this stuff?
wtf_is_this_****_Very_Disturbing_Childrens_Book_RE_We_dont_say_ampquotGermanampquot_in_America-s400x297-59009.jpg
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Please explain exactly the differences between the way I've presented it and the authors of these books with the word "Macroevolution" use it. Along with "Microevolution".
You seem to use the term as "dogs turning into cats" or "monkeys into humans".

Macroevolution at it's simplest is speciation.... the accumulation of unique genetic traits within a subpopulation of a species until it is distinct enough to be classified as a different species.

Microevolution are the origin and fixation of those traits within the subpopulation. Such as the spread of the lactose tolerance or blue eye gene in humans.

wa:do
 

Shermana

Heretic
You seem to use the term as "dogs turning into cats" or "monkeys into humans".

Macroevolution at it's simplest is speciation.... the accumulation of unique genetic traits within a subpopulation of a species until it is distinct enough to be classified as a different species.

Microevolution are the origin and fixation of those traits within the subpopulation. Such as the spread of the lactose tolerance or blue eye gene in humans.

wa:do

Lactose tolerance is one of my favorite subjects when I try to prove inherited traits. As long as this nonsense about "Macroevolution not being a serious word" is addressed, you are welcome to believe that the giant gaps on the level of Kingdom Animalia (Which should have its own classification to separate from Bacterial "Macro"evolution which I say should count as "Micro") are crossed by a Designer Hand, I say they were made as is, with similar structures for similar types. There's only so many ways to make a biped.

As for "Dogs turning into cats", I still want to know how exactly the bear, the wolf, and the lion all came from the same ancestor according to that video, the details were a bit lacking.

As it stands, there's no doubt that Lions and Tigers could have come from the same ancestor, but the Wolf? Subspeciation will not "eventually" turn a fish into a monkey.

As for "monkeys turning into humans", that's basically what it says. A "Monkey-type" thing which basically counts as a monkey in terms of structure, eventually developed into Cro Magnon, you are saying that's incorrect?
monkeys-324x205.jpg

Or is this about the term "Monkey" as opposed to "Monkey-thing"? And tails are not vestigal btw, the tailbone is critical for movement.
 
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camanintx

Well-Known Member
As for "Dogs turning into cats", I still want to know how exactly the bear, the wolf, and the lion all came from the same ancestor according to that video, the details were a bit lacking.
The process is called descent with modification. About 42 million years ago Carnivorans evolved from Miacids then split into Caniformia (dog-like) and Feliformia (cat-like).

Now maybe you could suggest a mechanism that prevents changes at the species level from accumulating into changes at the genus, family, order, class, phylum, kingdom and domain levels.
 

Shermana

Heretic
The process is called descent with modification. About 42 million years ago Carnivorans evolved from Miacids then split into Caniformia (dog-like) and Feliformia (cat-like).

Now maybe you could suggest a mechanism that prevents changes at the species level from accumulating into changes at the genus, family, order, class, phylum, kingdom and domain levels.

Please back your claims with evidence.
 

Gunfingers

Happiness Incarnate
What kind of evidence are you looking for? If we show you fossils you'll disregard them because we don't have one for every single generation, thus creating these gaps you're so hard up on. If we show you genetics you'll hand-wave them because you don't accept genetic evidence of relation. If we give you morphology you'll make some BS remark about common design. You're a creationist, which means you have a great deal of skill at ignoring evidence. Why even ask for it?
 

Shermana

Heretic
What kind of evidence are you looking for? If we show you fossils you'll disregard them because we don't have one for every single generation, thus creating these gaps you're so hard up on. If we show you genetics you'll hand-wave them because you don't accept genetic evidence of relation. If we give you morphology you'll make some BS remark about common design. You're a creationist, which means you have a great deal of skill at ignoring evidence. Why even ask for it?

If you make a claim, and you have no evidence for it, there's no evidence to look for because there isn't any to begin with.

You accuse me of ignoring evidence, please post the evidence you claim I ignore.

As anyone can see, it's apparently too much to ask just for even ANYTHING that might count as proof when it comes to a Macroevolutionist assertion.
 

Shermana

Heretic


This article is mentioned in several sites, There is quite a bit of material to discuss in that, but little that actually proves transition, and the "Missing data" it admits may heavily skew the observations. And I ask for anything in quote form that shows evidence that they came from the same source rather than having similar molds, as in a similar concept I showed earlier from ER-viruses that similar structures can be affected in similar fashion, I say that similar structures are merely indicative of a similar chassis, and not even of the same "kind". If you can quote anything that is proof of anything except similarity in the structure and how it proves things like retractable claws can develop, here's a piece of it if you want to start with the basics. As for the boundaries of Evolution, as I discussed with the Speed Limits, it's like Doc Brown's Deloreum, you need something to go 88mph for "magic" to happen like wings and lungs growing and the maximum is 5 with drawbacks to the system if it goes faster.

Biochemical Limits to Evolution: The Untold Story
So we see that there are tremendous problems simply in obtaining a protein that could have a function in an organism. A mutation that changes the shape is likely to result in a useless protein, even apart from considerations of whether the shape is suitable for a particular reaction. For example, if an amino acid with a small side chain is replaced in a mutation by one with a large side chain, the protein will not pack densely, and will be unstable. If a large side chain is replaced by a small one, then there will be a hole in the interior of the protein.

Contrasting patterns in species boundaries and evo... [Mol Phylogenet Evol. 2008] - PubMed result





Feliformia


In contrast to the clear resolution of the basal radiations within the caniform lineage, the relative positions among the major groups of Feliformia, which individually are strongly supported as monophyletic (Felidae, Viverridae [s.s.], and clade of Hyaenidae and Herpestidae + Malagasy carnivorans), remain ambiguously resolved by the molecular data (see Flynn et al., 1988, for comparable ambiguity suggested by morphological data). Both MP and Bayesian analyses of all-carnivoran taxa place the Viverridae as the sister group to the (Hyaenidae + (Herpestidae + Malagasy carnivoran)) clade, and thus reconstruct the Felidae, then Nandinia, as the sequential outgroups to this clade (see: Flynn and Nedbal, 1998; Yoder et al., 2003; Gaubert and Veron, 2003). However, the support for this topology is weak (BP = 64%, DI = 2, P = 0.61; Fig. 1). When the analysis is repeated using the feliform-only taxa subset, the relative positions of Felidae and Viverridae (s.s) are reversed, with Felidae most closely allied with the (Hyaenidae + (Herpestidae + Malagasy carnivoran)) clade, although these results are also unpersuasive (BP = 52%, DI = 1, P = 0.81; Fig. 2).
Flynn and Nedbal (1998), Yoder et al. (2003), Yoder and Flynn (2003), and Gaubert and Veron (2003) all recovered Viverridae as the sister-group to the combined (Hyaenidae + (Herpestidae + Malagasy carnivoran)) clade. In Flynn and Nedbal (1998; Tr-i-I only) and Gaubert and Veron (2003; Tr-i-I and CYTB only) that topology is weakly supported (parsimony BP = 61%, DI = 1; ML BP = 78%, insignificant branch length in Flynn and Nebal [1998]; < 70%, not measured, < 70%, and significant branch length for the same measures in Gaubert and Veron [2003], respectively). This topology in Yoder et al. (2003) had weak parsimony support (BP = 61%), but strong posterior support in their Bayesian analysis (P = .99). However, all of these prior studies incorporated only Panthera leo and Felis silvestris as exemplar felids, and employed many fewer genes than in the current analysis. The addition of more taxa within the Felidae (and throughout the feliforms, and caniform outgroups, in general) and the augmentation of the gene sequence data in this analysis serve to highlight the ambiguity of the evolutionary relationships at this node. The inability of these more extensive analyses to conclusively resolve these basal relationships suggests the possibility that there may have been an early and rapid radiation within this group between the three primary feliform lineages: (1) Felidae (possibly also including Prionodon [Gaubert and Veron, 2003]), (2) the restricted Viverridae, and (3) the lineage (Hyaenidae + (Herpestidae + Malagasy carnivoran)).
Interrelationships within the Felidae are little resolved. In both MP and Bayesian analyses, Felis catus (the domestic cat) and F. silvestris (the wild cat) are grouped as sister taxa, although the strength of support for this node is somewhat weak under parsimony in the all-carnivoran analysis (Fig. 1). When only the feliform taxa are analyzed, the strength of support for this node improves under parsimony (Fig. 2). Beyond this, strong support for the internal relationships within Felidae does not exist. Weak support for a clade uniting Panthera leo, P. tigris, and P. uncia appears in the Bayesian analyses, along with weak support for allying Felis pardalis (ocelot) with these taxa. Unfortunately, these analyses are unable to robustly resolve relationships within this group.
It is possible that this is due in some part to ambiguity introduced by missing data, and perhaps by the proportionally lower taxon sampling of felids (relative to herpestids and Malagasy carnivorans). All of the felid taxa in this study are represented by at least half of the potential sequences (Appendix 1), with three notable exceptions: the puma (Felis concolor), the snow leopard (Panthera uncia), and the cheetah (Acinonyx jubatus), each of which is known only for a single gene. This is important, as the position of Acinonyx appears to be incompatible between our MP and Bayesian results (although with only weak support for the conflicting placements in each; Figs. 1 and 2). Similarly, in the Bayesian analyses P. uncia is placed as the closest relative of the lion, to the exclusion of the tiger, which is surprising given traditional taxonomic and phylogenetic interpretations (Figs. 1 and 2). Analyses of the data sets restricted to those taxa with three or more sequences better resolve some of the internal relationships of the Felidae. However, the ambiguous relationships among these taxa, especially that of the snow leopard, should be better resolved in the future with increased sequence data and more comprehensive sampling of felid taxa.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Lactose tolerance is one of my favorite subjects when I try to prove inherited traits.
It is a very good example... especially as there are 3 separate mutations that are spreading through the human population that grant tolerance to lactose... and all three developed independently in early cattle based agrarian cultures.

As long as this nonsense about "Macroevolution not being a serious word" is addressed,
I have never said it wasn't a serious word... just that you don't seem to grasp the actual working definition of that word.

you are welcome to believe that the giant gaps on the level of Kingdom Animalia
Such as?

(Which should have its own classification to separate from Bacterial "Macro"evolution which I say should count as "Micro")
Species level evolution is species level evolution. Just because bacteria are little doesn't mean they can't undergo big changes.

Again, you seem to want "Macro" evolution to be something it isn't.

are crossed by a Designer Hand, I say they were made as is, with similar structures for similar types. There's only so many ways to make a biped.
Actually there are a lot of ways to make a biped. Surely a truly intelligent designer would be able to come up more than the handful of bipeds currently living on Earth. Human speculative biology fans do so all the time.

Also, made "as is" means this designer took his time coming up with all these redundant body plans. Ultimately all mammals are pretty much the same, bats and whales... humans and apes.... nothing really radical is going on that requires them being unable to share a common ancestor.


As for "Dogs turning into cats", I still want to know how exactly the bear, the wolf, and the lion all came from the same ancestor according to that video, the details were a bit lacking.
Carnivorans aren't really all that different from one another in terms of basic body plans. If you want to really learn about the evolution of carnivorans I would suggest reading some serious literature on the subject. For example:
Amazon.com: Carnivoran Evolution: New Views on Phylogeny, Form and Function (Cambridge Studies in Morphology and Molecules: New Paradigms in Evolutionary Bio) (9780521735865): Anjali Goswami, Anthony Friscia: Books

As it stands, there's no doubt that Lions and Tigers could have come from the same ancestor, but the Wolf?
Why are Lions and Tigers so very different from wolves? They have the same basic body plan, what is so drastically different that they are unable to be related to one another?

Subspeciation will not "eventually" turn a fish into a monkey.
This is again a sign that you misunderstand macroevolution. Fish didn't turn into monkeys. Prosimains did.

As for "monkeys turning into humans", that's basically what it says. A "Monkey-type" thing which basically counts as a monkey in terms of structure, eventually developed into Cro Magnon, you are saying that's incorrect?

Or is this about the term "Monkey" as opposed to "Monkey-thing"?
No, we share a common ancestor with modern monkeys. Monkeys didn't' become human, a subpopulation of "monkey" became early apes like the Pliopithecidae (some species of which still had tails despite being definitively ape in all other respects). And so on: Decent with modification.

And tails are not vestigal btw, the tailbone is critical for movement.
It is vestigial... again you don't seem to understand terminology. Vestigial doesn't mean useless, it means it is reduced in function. Our tail is highly reduced in function.

wa:do
 

Android

Member
Throughout all the biology topics I studied at uni, I never once encountered the words macro/micro evolution, just evolution.
I've only seen these terms used on internet forums like this.
 
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