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The suffering servant of isaiah 53

AK4

AK4

Well-Known Member
Ben: Now, I am sorry but this is idolatry, because there is no such a thing as Greek Mythology in Judaism. Don't forget, Jesus was a religious Jew, and you are only distorting the image of His Faith in the eyes of the world by inserting Hellenistic innovations into it.
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Oh really?! Not only is there greek mythology but a plethora of other myths in judaism. Try reading up please

Tree of souls: the mythology of Judaism - Google Book Search

Israelite Religion to Judaism: the Evolution of the Religion of Israel by David Steinberg
Table 2​

Hypotheses Regarding the Origin of Israelite Religion[56]http://www.adath-shalom.ca/israelite_religion.htm#_edn61​
​
Alternatives for Emergence of Israelite Religion
How Well Does it fit Known Historic Facts
1. Israelite religion was originally a local variety of the pattern in Iron Age Phoenicia in which there was a triad of deities: a protective god of the city (often El), a goddess, often his wife or companion (in Ugarit and Israel Asherah) who symbolizes the fertile earth; and a young god (in Ugarit and Israel Baal) usually her or their son), whose resurrection expresses the annual cycle of vegetation[57].http://www.adath-shalom.ca/israelite_religion.htm#_edn62 Through the processes of convergence and differentiation this developed into Biblical Monotheism. At an early stage a new god Yahweh was brought in from outside urban Canaan, identified with the Canaanite High God El[58]http://www.adath-shalom.ca/israelite_religion.htm#_edn63, and accepted as the main object of worship by the emerging Israelite confederacy i.e. association of clans and tribes.
Appears to fit very well
2. It developed from early Semitic religion which was a “practical monotheism” in which only El was worshiped[59].http://www.adath-shalom.ca/israelite_religion.htm#_edn64
Unlikely since the biblical evidence is that Israelite religion was preceded by polytheism.
3. It came into being as a sui generis innovation unrelated to the Semitic polytheism which preceded it. This hypothesis is further divided into 3 subcategories:

3.1 Verbal Revelation i.e. the Pentateuch was Virtually Dictated by God[60]http://www.adath-shalom.ca/israelite_religion.htm#_edn65
3.1.1 Traditional Jewish Divine Revelation[61]http://www.adath-shalom.ca/israelite_religion.htm#_edn66 – God gave Moses on Mt. Sinai the written Pentateuch that we have today together with the Oral Law i.e. the tools for developing the laws of the Pentateuch to meet all future needs. This Oral Law was later embodied in the Talmuds and other Rabbinic literature;
3.1.2 Traditional Karaite and Samaritan Divine Revelation – God gave Moses on Mt. Sinai the written Pentateuch that we have today as an immutable, all-encompassing, law.
The results of Higher Criticism of the Bible make this extremely unlikely.
In fact, the only way to intellectually maintain these positions would be to reason[62]http://www.adath-shalom.ca/israelite_religion.htm#_edn67:
Higher Criticism of the Bible deduces that the Torah was written and edited by people, over a long period, by comparing the Torah to other documents, showing similar characteristics, that can be shown to have been written and edited by people, over a long period;
For this to be valid one must compare like to like;
The Torah is the only divinely written document that has ever existed so comparisons with other documents are fundamentally invalid.
3.2 Various Modern Jewish Thinkers e.g. non-Orthodox Jewish theologians[63] http://www.adath-shalom.ca/israelite_religion.htm#_edn68and, perhaps Kaufmann* – God intervened, perhaps progressively, to reveal his totally new religious teaching**
Given the evidence available, it is almost impossible to prove or disprove these sorts of hypothesis though, by what is known, they seem to me improbable.
3.3 A teacher, say Moses or one of the Isaiahs, got a brilliant intellectual insight or revelation from God, depending on your beliefs, instantly grasping the concept of ethical monotheism which was totally alien to his, and the people’s, early polytheistic beliefs and practices.*** Of course, the founder/prophet would need to express the ethical monotheism through the linguistic semantics, images and at least some of the accustomed religious practices, of the time (eg. Sacrifices) provided that these did not fundamentally contradict the ethical monotheism.[64]http://www.adath-shalom.ca/israelite_religion.htm#_edn69
​
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http://www.atheist-community.org/boards/read_message.php?b=6&t=1480
 
Ben Sinai

Ben Sinai

Member
Yesha'yah 53 is positive proof as being prophecy of Yahshua Ha Moshiach Ben Dawid as the Chosen/Anointed/Moshiach of Yah for the purpose of salvation of His Chosen/Anointed/Moshiach peoples which were to be a light unto the nations.
 
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Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
Ben Sinai said:
Yesha'yah 53 is positive proof as being prophecy of Yahshua Ha Moshiach Ben Dawid as the Chosen/Anointed/Moshiach of Yah for the purpose of salvation of His Chosen/Anointed/Moshiach peoples which were to be a light unto the nations.
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And the voice of assumptions has spoken.
 
AK4

AK4

Well-Known Member
Ben Masada said:
If you believe this crap, why do you uphold the Scriptures? You are contradicting yourself.
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Is it not written in the scriptures how they worshipped other gods? Secular writings gives us extra proof and more detail of what they worshipped and sometimes further confirms the scriptures. Is not some of that stuff still practice by some of those in judaism? You know like the tree of knowledge symbol thingy and the other stuff in jewish mysticism.
 
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Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
AK4 said:
Is it not written in the scriptures how they worshipped other gods? Secular writings gives us extra proof and more detail of what they worshipped and sometimes further confirms the scriptures. Is not some of that stuff still practice by some of those in judaism? You know like the tree of knowledge symbol thingy and the other stuff in jewish mysticism.
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I have no idea what you are talking about.
 
Ben Sinai

Ben Sinai

Member
Ben Masada said:
Delusions that you attempt to refute only with Greek Mythology as if in Judaism there was place for such nonsense.
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Your delusional version of judaism isn't any better than that of what you dishonestly, and incorrectly, use to attack me with using.
 
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Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
Ben Sinai said:
Your delusional version of judaism isn't any better than that of what you dishonestly, and incorrectly, use to attack me with using.
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You must be new here, as I have been here for a long time and I don't remember you for that long. What I am trying to say to you is that, it is not in my nature to attack anyone anywhere, as it is not to turn the other cheek. If I am attacked first, it does become my nature to defend myself. You started this one, and not only with me as I have been reading your replies to other people. You tend to go too hot too easy with your words. I would advise caution and manners.
 
Ben Sinai

Ben Sinai

Member
Ben Masada said:
You must be new here, as I have been here for a long time and I don't remember you for that long. What I am trying to say to you is that, it is not in my nature to attack anyone anywhere, as it is not to turn the other cheek. If I am attacked first, it does become my nature to defend myself. You started this one, and not only with me as I have been reading your replies to other people. You tend to go too hot too easy with your words. I would advise caution and manners.
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Yes, I am new here. Your being here for any length of time doesn’t at all impress me. I haven’t a problem with being attacked by the likes of you YBM. I rather enjoy watching you trip over the truth so many times. Its quite comical to say the least. Most, that would spew forth such lies and deceits of brother Sha’ul, as well as the true word of Yah, eventually gets more than just their cheeks tanned. And no YBM, you rather started this charade of yours with me. You should have kept your own vain thoughts and feelings to yourself. And furthermore, I will defend the truth to the end and love my Elohim through obedience to His Torah. If that takes what you call “hot words” then so be it. I know for a fact that many here have so expressed themselves and they have been here far longer than you. And I would advise you if its to hot in the kitchen then get out!!!!!!!!!!
　
Please continue with your dribble YBM or are you crying fowl? Manners? Ha. You have devoured more than your fair share here and I for one am not like the rest. I bite back. But my bite is with the searing heat of the true word of Yah. All you have posted in all of the entirety of all the post I have read of yours thus far have been little more than twisted fanciful delusions of what you think and what you feel a certain verse or story within the bounds of the Bible state. You have never brought forth any proof to the contrary other than your own say so. And who are you? What makes you anymore important than the rest here? Not a **** thing. And you continue to attack others for defying you. Generally there has never been any scriptural basis to a thing you have posted thus far.

But hey, everything is everything. It is after all what you believe. Hope that works for ya. :rolleyes:
 
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Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
Ben Sinai said:
　
Yes, I am new here. Your being here for any length of time doesn’t at all impress me. I haven’t a problem with being attacked by the likes of you YBM. I rather enjoy watching you trip over the truth so many times. Its quite comical to say the least. Most, that would spew forth such lies and deceits of brother Sha’ul, as well as the true word of Yah, eventually gets more than just their cheeks tanned. And no YBM, you rather started this charade of yours with me. You should have kept your own vain thoughts and feelings to yourself. And furthermore, I will defend the truth to the end and love my Elohim through obedience to His Torah. If that takes what you call “hot words” then so be it. I know for a fact that many here have so expressed themselves and they have been here far longer than you. And I would advise you if its to hot in the kitchen then get out!!!!!!!!!!
　
Please continue with your dribble YBM or are you crying fowl? Manners? Ha. You have devoured more than your fair share here and I for one am not like the rest. I bite back. But my bite is with the searing heat of the true word of Yah. All you have posted in all of the entirety of all the post I have read of yours thus far have been little more than twisted fanciful delusions of what you think and what you feel a certain verse or story within the bounds of the Bible state. You have never brought forth any proof to the contrary other than your own say so. And who are you? What makes you anymore important than the rest here? Not a **** thing. And you continue to attack others for defying you. Generally there has never been any scriptural basis to a thing you have posted thus far.

But hey, everything is everything. It is after all what you believe. Hope that works for ya. :rolleyes:
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You sound so much like a prophet of doom, that I am reminded of one of those movies of Indianna Jones.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
Ben Masada said:
Muffled said:
Ben Masada said:
How in the world can you think that your assumptions ought to take the place of an eyewitness report?

Ben: None of the writers of the gospels was an eyewitness of anything about Jesus. Then, they started appearing after 75 CE and up to the end of the First Century. Besides they were all written by Hellenistic Gentiles with a very poor knowledge of what being Jewish is.

It is your own mindset that sees this as a teaching for the multitude just because it is famous today.

Ben: I can see that your mindset is to speak whithout knowledge of your own NT. Read Matthew 7:28. "As Jesus finished his discourse, the CROWDS were left spellbound at his teaching." It sounds a multitude to me.

The multitude wasn't ready for this deep a teaching and Jesus would have just been casting his pearls before swine which isn't something He feels obliged to do.

Ben: Yes, he said that. But if you can think, you will figure out whom he had in mind if he was speaking to the Jews. (Mat. 7:6)

I do not believe that Jesus is an egotistical person who seeing a crowd feels He has to preach.

Ben: But of course the crowd knew that the Nazarene would be delivering that sermon that day. He needed to explain to the Jews about his position with regards to the Law, which by the way was his main point.

He is God is the flesh and as such always has His own agenda and only changes it, if it is convenient because of His love for us.

Ben: Now, I am sorry but this is idolatry, because there is no such a thing as Greek Mythology in Judaism. Don't forget, Jesus was a religious Jew, and you are only distorting the image of His Faith in the eyes of the world by inserting Hellenistic innovations into it.
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I don't know where you get this from. Biblical scholars attribute NT books to Jewish authors. Granted that there is no evidence that Luke was Jewish but he gathered eyewitness reports from people that were. However even if NT writers are not Jewish their eyewitness accounts are still valid.

I will grant you that one. Please excuse me for not wading through two chapters to find this out. It certainly clears up the ambiguity. However even if the multitude is largely Jewish in culture it is not very enlightened. It is Jesus who is the light of the world who enlightens them. Even if Jesus thought the Jews would carry forth His message (And his experience with Jews should have taught him by then that they weren't evangelically oriented) history shows that they did not. Isa 49:6 says that Messiah is given as a light to the Gentiles. It is largely the Gentiles that have carried this light all over the world.

Who said anything about God being in Judaism. I do not find Him so limited. He had Jonah go preach repentance to the Ninevites without even hinting that they ought to become Jewish first. It is not idolatry to know God but it is idoltry to set up your own personal concept of Him which is what you have done. God isn't worried about whether you think His message is Jewish enough. It is still His message.
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Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
Muffled said:
Ben Masada said:
Muffled said:
I don't know where you get this from. Biblical scholars attribute NT books to Jewish authors. Granted that there is no evidence that Luke was Jewish but he gathered eyewitness reports from people that were. However even if NT writers are not Jewish their eyewitness accounts are still valid.

I will grant you that one. Please excuse me for not wading through two chapters to find this out. It certainly clears up the ambiguity. However even if the multitude is largely Jewish in culture it is not very enlightened. It is Jesus who is the light of the world who enlightens them. Even if Jesus thought the Jews would carry forth His message (And his experience with Jews should have taught him by then that they weren't evangelically oriented) history shows that they did not. Isa 49:6 says that Messiah is given as a light to the Gentiles. It is largely the Gentiles that have carried this light all over the world.

Who said anything about God being in Judaism. I do not find Him so limited. He had Jonah go preach repentance to the Ninevites without even hinting that they ought to become Jewish first. It is not idolatry to know God but it is idoltry to set up your own personal concept of Him which is what you have done. God isn't worried about whether you think His message is Jewish enough. It is still His message.
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I don't care what you think of God or how you worship Him. My purpose is to fix the image of Judaism which Christians distort before the world by using a religious Jew to insert Hellenistic innovations into it. If you want to be an idolater, it's your choice
but don't try to drag Judaism into this. If Jesus was a Greek man, whose faith was based in the Olympian Pantheon of Mythology, we would not be having this discussion, because I wouldn't care less.
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