The suffering servant of isaiah 53

[IF_u_knew]

My point exactly!!! "Why do so many trust man or as you are doing trust in "a collective corrupt unspiritual messiah" who somehow will be coming with the clouds, approaching the Ancient of Days and ALL MANKIND WILL WORSHIP THEM AND NOT THE CREATOR!!

Its obsurd. They listen to a people who claim they are His "chosen" yet they practise many satanic rituals and traditions.

The problem is so many ARE asking those of a RELIGION, MEN who dont know God the Creator, for guidance as the blind shepards lead their blind sheep and the rest of the world in a PIT! Looking for understanding of His Word when they dont even understand His Word.

Yet, as you directed this post to me, you tell me i need to ask who the Father is. I know the Father, thats why my Father allows me to speak in His name. To say His complete name because to Him i am like a brother and to be beyond the fear of Him and to be able to cry to Him "abba Father". To say you know the Father but yet can only put G.d or G-d shows how much you are still in the dark let alone you are asking the blind to guide you to their g.d which they claim is themselves.

Its time to ask who you are worshipping and idolizing and ask the real God not g.d to reveal Himself to you.

I am not sure why my writing out of G.d is used as a judgment of my heart and my knowledge. Seems here lately, that it has a become a favorite target closely following the biting accusations and shaming of the things I say.

I do not receive my Understandings from man. Just because I may receive knowledge from someone, if there is Understanding to be had in it, that alone comes from the LORD and not man. That is the only Truth that I stand on... what I have Understanding of coupled with confirmation in His Word.

Why it is the Christians that tend to be the harshest and most unfair in their judgments of me, I do not know. I pour my heart for you all more than anyone else in so many ways, and I am met with such harsh and biting judgments toward my intents. I do not expect anything from you, but only share what I know; yet I am immediately shut out and rebuked.

By the way, I did not say that I believed these things to be literal. They paint a picture. I understand it so clearly and I so badly want to share this with others and instead the lovely Voice of G.d is mocked and rejected; and my heart breaks for everyone.. all around, and mostly for my Love, the Truth. :sad:

 

[AK4]

I am not sure why my writing out of G.d is used as a judgment of my heart and my knowledge. Seems here lately, that it has a become a favorite target closely following the biting accusations and shaming of the things I say.

I do not receive my Understandings from man. Just because I may receive knowledge from someone, if there is Understanding to be had in it, that alone comes from the LORD and not man. That is the only Truth that I stand on... what I have Understanding of coupled with confirmation in His Word.

Why it is the Christians that tend to be the harshest and most unfair in their judgments of me, I do not know. I pour my heart for you all more than anyone else in so many ways, and I am met with such harsh and biting judgments toward my intents. I do not expect anything from you, but only share what I know; yet I am immediately shut out and rebuked.

By the way, I did not say that I believed these things to be literal. They paint a picture. I understand it so clearly and I so badly want to share this with others and instead the lovely Voice of G.d is mocked and rejected; and my heart breaks for everyone.. all around, and mostly for my Love, the Truth. :sad:

Honestly, it is not a judgment. I do not judge because i know how duped and decieved this world is and i know the Plan of God. I dont know your heart, im not God. Your knowledge, i question because if you really think about it, how can you claim to know the Father but cant say His name, pray in His name, ask in His name? Do you truly understand what the commandment "dont use the Lords name in vain" mean? Or are you going by what youve been taught probably most of your life.

I admit, when i read some of your post i see you are close, real close, but when i see you can only put g.d, then it just shows me there is some knowledge you are lacking. (Not to sound harsh but this is just an example or an analogy of what it reminds me of---Jack Van Impe memorised thousands of verses but doesnt have a clue on what the Word means. Hes full of "head" knowledge but doesnt understand spiritual things)

Its kinda oxymoronic to say you know the Father and He is close or in your heart, but cant call upon His name. Maybe its just me who sees this as not making sense.

Christains. Hmph once again i hate to lumped in to what is now known as what is a christain. "Christains" of the world today dont actually believe in Jesus. They dont believe the Word. They believe the doctrines and teachings of men. I actually believe in Jesus and know what His name means and all the other stuff i just dont feel like typing right now. I know what His name represents. I could blah you to death but i wont.

I refute those who contradict. Sometimes it may be harsh, but when i do do this, i try to use scripture, not my own words. I do not attack anyone on here i believe

 

[IF_u_knew]

Your knowledge, i question

I think this is brilliant... just knocked off the rest of it because those are *not* THE reasons you should question what I know. You should question me because I am not G.d. The one thing I know to say is that He is very much real and that any knowledge that I give is only that... knowledge from the perspective I have been given. I can *not* give a person Understanding. I have erred in that I want to give Understanding to you and that is not mine to give. It is only mine to apply to the knowledge I have, and other than that, all I can do is share the knowledge I have. If there is only one thing that I hope people "hear" from me, it is this. Do not take anyone's word for it. Only listen, and than seek Him for it will be through Him that you will Understand that I speak Truth.

I had intended on ignoring your issue with the way that I write out G.d, but I have been given explanation to give. It is quite simple. What I write out is between me and the reader; meaning, I do not call Him God when I speak to Him. What I write is not between me and G.d. I speak to Him from my heart.. it is a knowing Him when I call to Him. I have not a word that I use for Him because I call to Him from the pureness of my heart and the mouth, as it stands now, is not pure. I started writing out G.d that way much in the same way that a baby upon coming out of the womb takes their first breath. It was not done with a conscience effort.. it just was. I did not even realize the reason why or much take notice of it when I started to do it.

Now, I understand clearly, it was to identify to myself.. a "proof" to myself (w/out knowing it at the time) from Him that I was indeed on the right path. There are reasons I was led down this path and that is a matter between me and G.d. To question my knowledge and Understanding of G.d simply based on how I physically refer to Him does not affect the Truth in the least. It just means that you are judging from a physical standpoint still. It is understandable... I am still learning myself. :yes:

 

[AK4]

It just means that you are judging from a physical standpoint still. It is understandable... I am still learning myself. :yes:

I dont judge, and if i did it definitely wouldnt be from a physical standpoint.

Joh 6:63 - It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
To judge you in the flesh is meaningless. You are right i dont know what you say in your mind when you speak with your God, but as if the keyboard is your mouth, when you speak with this it shows me and whoever else who reads your posts that you cannot speak His name. Rather out of fear or reverance is not too important. I take that back, it is. I wont preach to you but take this verse to heart, maybe God will open your eyes to what it really means

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Psalms 103 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]103:13 Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Think on it.[/FONT]

 

[IF_u_knew]

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I dont judge, and if i did it definitely wouldnt be from a physical standpoint.

What is this, then?
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but as if the keyboard is your mouth, when you speak with this it shows me and whoever else who reads your posts that you cannot speak His name. Rather out of fear or reverance is not too important.

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[FONT=&quot]You are so hung up on how I write out God, that you dismiss what I say, which is honestly only unfair to yourself. The above is not a righteous judgment and has little effect on the Truth (as I have stated).[/FONT]

Now, will you take into consideration my words because I wrote out God? And if so, how did my heart change simply because I changed it from G.d to God? It is this type of reasoning that people are clinging to which keeps them from actually having the guts to see things from a different perspective and learning anything of value. Because you are still hung up on this G.d vs God deal, you have missed my point in what I brought forth in Daniel. You saw it as literal. I do not view the Tanakh as literal. I can not, because to do so would be based on faith, since I have no definitive knowledge that most of those things actually took place in that exact way.

Judging is not something we will escape doing in the here and now; it goes hand in hand with free will. So, the wise thing for us to do is to learn how to judge from the correct view point and we can only do that by lining up to G.d's perspective (a continual process) rather than lining Him up to fit in with our views. Just my 2 cents that is not more or less relevant whether I write out God with the "o" or without the "o."[FONT=&quot] (sorry again OP for the off topic detour) *shrugs*

[/FONT]Psalms 103 103:13 Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.

The above verse is hand in hand with the Proverb, "the fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom." In order for one to experience this type of fear, one must actually step out into the void of uncertainty. I threw myself into the void; perhaps a bit too dramatically .. but it was well worth it.

 

[AK4]

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[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]What is this, then? [/FONT][/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]You are so hung up on how I write out God, that you dismiss what I say, which is honestly only unfair to yourself. The above is not a righteous judgment and has little effect on the Truth (as I have stated).[/FONT]
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You chopped off the beginning of my sentence, "You are right i dont know what you say in your mind when you speak with your God,". I did see your point you were making in your post. Thats what the first part of the sentence was saying. The second is just what i see on the cpu, which is a sorta reflection of you. How do the scripture say this---"whats comes out of a mans mouth is how his heart is" (paraphrasing of course, the exact words are alluding me). So what i see is how i portray you. Dont get me wrong, i could be dead wrong.

Now, will you take into consideration my words because I wrote out God? And if so, how did my heart change simply because I changed it from G.d to God? It is this type of reasoning that people are clinging to which keeps them from actually having the guts to see things from a different perspective and learning anything of value. Because you are still hung up on this G.d vs God deal, you have missed my point in what I brought forth in Daniel. You saw it as literal. I do not view the Tanakh as literal. I can not, because to do so would be based on faith, since I have no definitive knowledge that most of those things actually took place in that exact way.

I see things totally from a different perspective from what most of mankind sees it. I deciphered alot of the lies. (When i say i, I mean the Lord has shown me, not i). When i read the scriptures i see the spiritual meaning of the words. Like the words sea egypt or trees or the mistranslated words like eternity and hell. I can read a passage and see the spiritual meaning behind it all and how it applies to Christ and to me and how it will be for everyone eventually. I read the parables and know what they mean. Its sad because not many else see this way. I dont read the Word and see literal, that brings confusion.

I explained already about the g.d thing. It matters not to me if you write it that way. If anything i was trying to get you recognise how it dont make sense to do something like that and say that the Father is close to your heart. Its like having a kid that refuses to call their mom, momma, and only calls them by their first name. How close do you think that child probably feels they are to there momma when they cant even speak aloud their mothers name? If you observed this (and of course you wouldnt know what is truly in the childs heart) would you think that child is real close to their mother?

Judging is not something we will escape doing in the here and now; it goes hand in hand with free will. So, the wise thing for us to do is to learn how to judge from the correct view point and we can only do that by lining up to G.d's perspective (a continual process) rather than lining Him up to fit in with our views.

Isnt that exactly what people think they are doing because they believe they have free will? Theyre trying to make God conform to their will. God says His will is to save all and that no one should perish yet man says no He wont because their will will be stronger than Gods and their free will (if one "refuses" to come to the knowledge of the truth) will keep Him from converting them. TheY distort the scriptures and say its just a weak wish and that God cant get all that He wishes/desires/wills/wants etc etc. THEY DESPISE HIS WORD.

Psalms 103 103:13 Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.

The above verse is hand in hand with the Proverb, "the fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom." In order for one to experience this type of fear, one must actually step out into the void of uncertainty. I threw myself into the void; perhaps a bit too dramatically .. but it was well worth it.

If anything im trying to get you to step past the beginning and understand your Father cares for you so much that it hurts Him that you fear Him.

Okay i got that out so i will return to the OP.

Not only was/is Jesus the suffering servant, so are the ones He is conforming to His Image in this age. YOU should be the suffering servant also---to an extant.

 

[IF_u_knew]

If anything im trying to get you to step past the beginning and understand your Father cares for you so much that it hurts Him that you fear Him.

I appreciate the good intentions you have and the care that you seem to honestly have; but you are cheating yourself when you try to convince others. I am on offense and you are defense. :yes: I take your questions and ask them to my own heart. If I can not answer them, I do not let it go until I see what it is that I am missing. You do not honestly know that I am hurting my Father.. I am hurting *you* because I do not view things how you think I should. Can you at least consider this? I honestly considered what was being said about Jesus in the other thread and when I finally faced the NT, I suddenly saw an even DEEPER Wisdom and now, I view the NT as brilliant and even more Testament to the how gorgeous G.d's ways are (just still..I do not at ALL view the NT in the way you and others are.. I am not even sure if Ben and I would see eye to eye on Jesus.. not sure.. still trying to figure out where he stands exactly on Jesus).

YOU should be the suffering servant also---to an extant.

No doubt that since the spirit of the suffering servant (not Jesus) rests in my soul, I have in essence become an extension of the suffering servant. :sad: and

 

[AK4]

I appreciate the good intentions you have and the care that you seem to honestly have; but you are cheating yourself when you try to convince others. I am on offense and you are defense.

I just had to comment on that last part. Offense, defense---i am on niether. if i wanted to be on "offense" believe me i could show you something. Im not on defense either because im not trying to advance anything. Iam being held back right now from God to reveal much of what i know. I dont why Hes not giving me the heart to reveal right now but hey "God works in mysterious ways". (Ugh i hate to use a phrase parrotted by the christain churches)

 

[IF_u_knew]

(Ugh i hate to use a phrase parrotted by the christain churches)

I know that feeling.. but the one you quoted, from our finite/limited perspectives, it is so very true. It is what drives me to continue to question and theorize and not to settle for another's view of Him.

 

[Muffled]

Although i showed you before and you ignored it here you go again



Prov 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth (#02342); when there were no fountainsabounding with water.[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Strong's Number: 02342[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Browse Lexicon[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Original Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Word Origin[/FONT]lwx[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]a primitive root[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Transliterated Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TDNT Entry[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Chuwl[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TWOT - 623[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Phonetic Spelling[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Parts of Speech[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]khool [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Verb [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Definition[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

1. to twist, whirl, dance, writhe, fear, tremble, travail, be in anguish, be pained
   1. (Qal)
      1. to dance
      2. to twist, writhe
      3. to whirl, whirl about
   2. (Polel)
      1. to dance
      2. to writhe (in travail with), bear, bring forth
      3. to wait anxiously
   3. (Pulal)
      1. to be made to writhe, be made to bear
      2. to be brought forth
   4. (Hophal) to be born
   5. (Hithpolel)
      1. whirling (participle)
      2. writhing, suffering torture (participle)
      3. to wait longingly
   6. (Hithpalpel) to be distressed

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]King James Word Usage - Total: 62[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]pain 6, formed 5, bring forth 4, pained 4, tremble 4, travail 4, dance 2, calve 2, grieved 2, grievous 2, wounded 2, shake 2, miscellaneous 23[/FONT]

Now that should be pretty clear for you. So now tell me, how can this torah (as you try to say was brought forth from the before the works of old, creation) had been brought forth in (twist, whirl, dance, writhe, fear, tremble, travail, be in anguish, be pained) this sort of manner?



You know i just love it when someone does this:foot::foot::foot:. Your own words will corner you.

So here we go. Now the talmud teaches those in judaism that God cannot have any "humanlike" qualities, you know the "great" Moses Maimonides and his negative theology, but YET what did you just do above---
"Do you not understand the difference between being someone and being WITH someone?"

So tell me, since this wisdom is expressing humanlike qualities and is not someone,but is WITH someone who has to be God, you are telling me that God got His wisdom in twisted writhing pain. Hold on let me rephrase that--

YOU ARE TELLING ME GOD GOT HIS WISDOM IN ALL THESE HUMANLIKE QUALITIES (twist, whirl, dance, writhe, fear, tremble, travail, be in anguish, be pained). BECAUSE AFTER ALL, THIS WISDOM, THIS TORAH WAS BROUGHT FORTH. YOU ARE TELLING ME WHILE GOD GOT THIS TORAH/BLUEPRINT HE SUFFERED?

You have a choice now, either it was the torah with all these humanlike qualities---please explain to me how words have humanlike qualities---or it was God who has all these qualities because you said "Do you not understand the difference between being someone and being WITH someone?"


Now i know the truth of the matter, but i present this to you the way you are arguing because you have to confront your own words and remember, to hold to your precious judaism, God cant have these human qualities

I don't see the dance of creation as a suffering. It is the way it should be. The suffering on the cross is not the way things should be and exemplifies an anti-creation which is most often rendered as sin. But if sin is crucified, how will it survive?

 

[Ben Masada]

I don't see the dance of creation as a suffering. It is the way it should be. The suffering on the cross is not the way things should be and exemplifies an anti-creation which is most often rendered as sin. But if sin is crucified, how will it survive?

Too philosophical, but real and natural. But! Why but? That's just the way it is. But reallly! In what sense must sin survive? Perhaps at least to know when good is good?
I thought man had been created perfect. I mean, almost perfect, were not for death. Couldn't man survive if sin was not an option? In that case, you are right.
Sin must not be allowed crucifixion. It would be to eat flat without salt.

Ben:

 

[Muffled]

Too philosophical, but real and natural. But! Why but? That's just the way it is. But reallly! In what sense must sin survive? Perhaps at least to know when good is good?
I thought man had been created perfect. I mean, almost perfect, were not for death. Couldn't man survive if sin was not an option? In that case, you are right.
Sin must not be allowed crucifixion. It would be to eat flat without salt.

Ben:

If all that is possible is good (Heaven, KOG) then all knowlege is knowlege of good and all is well. That was the state of man before Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. When evil entered in man began to die. Sure sin pretends to be salt but in truth it is arsenic. Jesus referred to His followers as salt and light.

 

[Ben Masada]

If all that is possible is good (Heaven, KOG) then all knowlege is knowlege of good and all is well. That was the state of man before Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. When evil entered in man began to die. Sure sin pretends to be salt but in truth it is arsenic. Jesus referred to His followers as salt and light.

I agree with you. Knowledge is good. And I mean of both: Good and evil. One to be practised and the other to be avoided.

Now, regarding your saying that man began to die when he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, I do not agree with it. The opposite is true. Psychologically, man began to live. Physically, man began to die when he was born.

When Jesus referred to salt and light, he was delivering his Sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews. Then, he might have been reminded of Isaiah 42:6, where it says that Israel was given as light unto the Gentiles, and said to the Jews: You are the salt of the earth; you are the light of the world. (Mat. 5:13-16)

Ben:

 

[Muffled]

I agree with you. Knowledge is good. And I mean of both: Good and evil. One to be practised and the other to be avoided.

Now, regarding your saying that man began to die when he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, I do not agree with it. The opposite is true. Psychologically, man began to live. Physically, man began to die when he was born.

When Jesus referred to salt and light, he was delivering his Sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews. Then, he might have been reminded of Isaiah 42:6, where it says that Israel was given as light unto the Gentiles, and said to the Jews: You are the salt of the earth; you are the light of the world. (Mat. 5:13-16)

Ben:

THe concept that Jews are the light of the world is an ego trip bsed on ethnic preference. An objective view of the text does not support it. Jesus was given as the light unto the Gentiles and He says as much:
Joh 8:12 Again therefore Jesus spake unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life.

 

[AK4]

THe concept that Jews are the light of the world is an ego trip bsed on ethnic preference. An objective view of the text does not support it. Jesus was given as the light unto the Gentiles and He says as much:
Joh 8:12 Again therefore Jesus spake unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Exactly:yes:

 

[Ben Masada]

THe concept that Jews are the light of the world is an ego trip bsed on ethnic preference. An objective view of the text does not support it. Jesus was given as the light unto the Gentiles and He says as much:
Joh 8:12 Again therefore Jesus spake unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Jesus spoke on behalf of the People. It's perfectly okay to say what one is, as a representative of the collective. Therefore, it's no contradiction from what he
said that the Jewish People is the light of the world.

Ben:

 

[Muffled]

Jesus spoke on behalf of the People. It's perfectly okay to say what one is, as a representative of the collective. Therefore, it's no contradiction from what he
said that the Jewish People is the light of the world.

Ben:

So if I followed in the footsteps of my Jewish friend who was in Wicca and plagued by demons I would be in the light? I don't think there's any chance of that.

 

[Ben Masada]

So if I followed in the footsteps of my Jewish friend who was in Wicca and plagued by demons I would be in the light? I don't think there's any chance of that.

Sorry, but you are not being serious!

 

[Ben Masada]

Exactly:yes:

Jesus spoke as one of the People. Magestic plural.

 

[Muffled]

Sorry, but you are not being serious!

Well, either you are referring to the Jewish people as an ethnic group or as a group of believers. My friend fell i the former category but not in the latter category. I would seriously doubt that a group of Jews was ever in the light and certainly Jesus did not find them in the light.