Jeremy Mason
Well-Known Member
Yes
Your right again.
Irony comes to mind.
Ben, your pride is as big as a parade and your commonsense is not common to anyone as far as I can see.
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The suffering servant of isaiah 53
- Thread starter Ben Masada
- Start date
Yes
Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
I thought the thread was about "The Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53." How about returning from me personally to the original thread? Why don't you use your intelligence to demonstrate to me that Isaiah is not talking about Israel? We would learn much more that way.
Ben
Jeremy Mason
Well-Known Member
I would be happy to and will as soon as I get home and review my references. I'm house sitting this week for some friends of mine.
Charity
Let's go racing boys !
Israel was referred to as "my servant" in Isaiah
But then I'm not good with OT so be sure and check it out for yourself.....
AK4
Well-Known Member
Isa 49
1 Listen to me, you islands; hear this, you distant nations: Before I was born the Lord called me; from my birth he has made mention of my name. 2 He made my mouth like a sharpened sword, in the shadow of his hand he hid me; he made me into a polished arrow and concealed me in his quiver. 3 He said to me, "You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will display my splendor."
Now lets see by your logic if this isnt talking about Jesus then this is talking about Isaiah. No this is not talking of Isaiah or the Isrealites or Jews
(Jesus talking in the third person)
4 But I said, "I have labored to no purpose; I have spent my strength in vain and for nothing. Yet what is due me is in the Lord's hand, and my reward is with my God."
5 And now the Lord says-- he who formed me in the womb to be his servant to bring Jacob back to him and gather Israel to himself, for I am honored in the eyes of the Lord and my God has been my strength--
(now you may think that i am like most christains and think that Jesus has no God or part of some kind of trinity, but no Jesus plainly states He has a God in Revelations so this verse matches what Jesus says about His Father--
Joh 5:19Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise
6 he says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
Is this talking of Isaiah, uh no. Read above. Theres that Light for the gentiles again. Who is the subject of this prophecy again? Jesus, not physical Jews.
7 This is what the Lord says-- the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel-- to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation (sounds like the suffering servant here), to the servant of rulers: "Kings will see you and rise up, princes will see and bow down, because of the Lord, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you (Jesus)."
8 This is what the Lord says: "In the time of my favor I will answer you, and in the day of salvation I will help you; I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people,
Theres Jesus again admitting that He cant do nothing without His Father/God. The Jews are not a covenant for the people. Isnt it strange how Jesus brought in a covenant? Hmmm
to restore the land and to reassign its desolate inheritances, 9 to say to the captives, 'Come out,' and to those in darkness, 'Be free!' "
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Beeeeeeen, Gods telling you something heeeeeeeeeere.
14 But Zion said, "The Lord has forsaken me, the Lord has forgotten me." 15 "Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! 16 See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are ever before me. 17 Your sons hasten back, and those who laid you waste depart from you.
Can you see it Ben? The gentiles will be saved first, along with a remnant of the heritage jews, then the physical jews/israelites will be saved but "the first will be last and last will be first"
Read the rest of that chapter. So where your religion of Judah or Israel bringing people to God does not fit this prophecy
I would take this further but i can only use so many characters per post:clap
Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
Israel was referred to as "my servant" in Isaiah
You are good enough Baby, keep on the good message and show them the light.
Ben:drool:
AK4
Well-Known Member
It is a parable, duh. Do you know what parables are? Dont you know God speaks to the masses only in parables? I thought i told you this before. What is literal in just those three verses? Israel? God is using all parables until He gets to Israel? Come on, use "your understanding". No wait a minute dont, thats what got you where you are now. Ask God for the "eyes to see" and discernment.
Ps 78:2 - I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter hidden things, things from of old--
Mt 13:35 - So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world." Mr 4:34 -He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything.
+++Ben: All physical Jews and not Jesus on an individual basis. Jesus himself declared that the Jews are the light of the world. Read Matthew 5:14.
Ugh. We already been down this road before. You didnt see then, so you wont see now.
+++Ben: Isaiah 42:6 - Israel has been given as light unto the nations and for covenant of the peoples.
For the peoples? I thought you said they were for Judah and then Judah would bring in salvation?
+++Ben: I have showed you many quotations with the name of Israel in the Scriptures that Jesus used to handle, and you haven't shown even one with the name of Jesus.
Come on, use your common sense. Would God give out His name and then speak in parables? Why do you think He told Moses to say---
Ex 3:14 - God said to Moses, "~I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: '~I am has sent me to you.'"
Ex 3:15 - God also said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites, 'The Lord, the God of your fathers--the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob--has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation.
So no. There will be no verse that directly says Jesus in the OT. But once again we have parables---
Isa 7:14 - Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
Mt 1:23 - "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"--which means, "God with us."
Now how can you accept this verse when its in a book called "THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST" when you dont accept Him as what the book portrays Him as? :slap:
+++Ben: Saved from what? We are not lost. The only salvation I believe is salvation from the ignorance and superstitions. There is no afterlife for us to be saved from
this one. We Jews are already saved from ignorance. We hold more than 50 percent of all Nobel Prices. Doesn't it say something to you?
Do you want a cookie or something? So what, even if yall do have more than 50% (which i doubt is true since its coming from you). And you believe in no afterlife, but where God plainly states this you deny it and then YOU are to be teaching the world about God? I could bury you right now with scripture upon scripture to show that you have little understanding of scripture. You belittle your God by saying He cant bring the dead back to life and make Him a liar. Remember me saying that Judaism is MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH---well the their is a certain (well many) denomination (daughter harlot) that follow your Judaism belief of eternal annihilation. Good grief
+++Ben: I, personally, have brought more people to God than you for sure.
I would have to say you may be right because my number is a big fat 0! i cant bring noone to God only the Father can do this. Then again i doubt you are bringing them to the true God.
ps dont take this post a personal attack or harsh, i am just doing what is says to do scripturally--
Re 11:5 - And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Re 13:13 -And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Then again these are parables so you wouldnt understand.
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Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
It doesn't make any sense for Jesus to be speaking in the past tense about having been formed in his mother's womb 700 + years before his birth.
Isaiah 49 is most clearly Isaiah speaking in the first person.
It makes sense if you read it this way:
He (God) said to me (Isaiah): "You are my servant, (son of) Israel, in whom I take glory."
AK4
Well-Known Member
Have you noticed all of Isa 53 is in the past tense. Alot of the prophecies about the Saviour to come are in the past tense. Why?
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
This cannot be talking of Isaiah because Israel in this verse is being spoken of as one who will rule as God
Isa 49:3 And saidH559 unto me, ThouH859 art my servant,H5650 O Israel,H3478 in whomH834 I will be glorified.H6286
H3478
ישׂראל
yiśrâ'êl
yis-raw-ale'
From H8280 and H410; he will rule as God; Jisrael, a symbolical name of Jacob; also (typically) of his posterity: - Israel.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Yes, the word is cunning. I am sorry.
But the Word of God is not from Genesis to Revelation. You can hold your horses right there! Anything after Malachi was added against the injunction of Deuteronomy 4:2; 13:1; and Proverb 30:6.
Ben
Since the first instance of this is in Deuteronomy then all books after it are suspect of being "added".
However that is not the way I view that verse. I believe God is telling man not to add to what he says not that God can't add to it and Jesus as God in the flesh has that right and Paul who has God in the Paraclete.
The other two verses can be considered in the same way.
I was quoted those verses when I said that the Qu'ran was the word of God. God can bring a word whenever He wishes. To not recognize His authority to do so is to not recognize the sovreignty of God.
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Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
You are absolutely correct that the Almighty can do or bring to happen anything He wishes, but one: That thing you wish He did or will do.That's the difference.
You claim for instance that He sent Jesus from Heaven to be born of a virgin on earth. He could but He didn't just because you wish He did. See what I mean?
Jesus as God in flesh! You have forgotten that he was Jewish and that there is no such a thing as Greek Mythology in Judaism.
This is idolatry, and I don't wonder why the Jews almost killed Paul for preaching this heresy in Jerusalem, about 30 years after Jesus' death.
Ben
Muffled
Jesus in me
You are absolutely correct that the Almighty can do or bring to happen anything He wishes, but one: That thing you wish He did or will do.That's the difference.
You claim for instance that He sent Jesus from Heaven to be born of a virgin on earth. He could but He didn't just because you wish He did. See what I mean?
Jesus as God in flesh! You have forgotten that he was Jewish and that there is no such a thing as Greek Mythology in Judaism.
This is idolatry, and I don't wonder why the Jews almost killed Paul for preaching this heresy in Jerusalem, about 30 years after Jesus' death.
Ben
You are claiming that worshipping God is idolatry? That is news to me. So that makes you an idoater and God an idol.
Paul did not find His God in the Pantheon which is why he had to resort to referring to Him as the "unknown god."
Yes. Because the reverse is true also. Wishful thinking will not change the Biblical record and making statements does not equate to truth.
On the contrary there is a Psalm that says that God will give me the desires of my heart. I don't know if you are aware of this but I believe in backward prayer, ie. I pray that something will turn out right after the event has occurred as long as I don't know the outcome of the event.
Actually I believe this to be true that God did appear to Abraham in person. It may be the stinking thinking of men that sees it differently and gets incorporated into Judaism but it is not the truth of God to say that God does not incorporate.
Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
I am claiming that worshipping man as if he were God is idolatry. And that's what Christians do to Jesus.
Right, since Paul didn't find his god in the Pantheon, he decided to create one in Judaism and nearly got killed for that, were not for the Nazarenes who shipped him
back to the Greek city of Tarsus where he belonged.
If my statements don't equate the Truth, why don't you rebut them with Scriptural basis? But I mean the Scriptures that Jesus used to handle.
Prayer is just a form to express one's hope. And as long as that is part of the definition of prayer, it's acceptable. When it becomes an item of faith, then, prayer
becomes a disappointment.
The Almighty God cannot appear to anyone in person. Read Deuteronomy 4:15,16. "You saw no form at all on the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire.
Be strictly on your guard therefore, not to degrade yourselves by fashioning an idol to represent any figure whether in the form of a man or of a woman."
Ben
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Muffled
Jesus in me
I would agree with you on both points however that is not what a Christian is supposed to do. We worship the God in Jesus. There is no human spirit in Jesus to worship and worshipping the physical facade certainly would be idolatry. However it is diificult to separate God from His incarnation as it would be for me to address your spirit. Some people could go into a Catholic church and have trouble with the icons of saints but my conscience is not that sensitive. Paul gives us a good understanding of this when he talks about meat offered to idols. Jesus says this about it. He can forgive you for not recognizing Him in a man but He will have trouble forgiving you if you do not recognize His spirit.
Your statement is unadulterated fiction.
If that were the case you could pray to a rock. Prayer is communication with God. Expression of a hope falls within that communication category as does petition, praise and thanksgiving. I am never disappointed by God even if my expectations aren't met.
I read the verse and it talks about a singular event not a principle. BTW who else has the authority to decide whether Sodom will be spared judgement or not?
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
Be strictly on your guard therefore, not to degrade yourselves by fashioning an idol to represent any figure whether in the form of a man or of a woman.
Sounds like a principle to me.
Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
Muffled
Jesus in me
The principle is not that Jesus can't be God in the flesh but simply the worship of God must be the worhip of God in His essence: Holy Spirit. It is not a cop out it is absolute truth and your suggestion of a cop-out can't be substatntiated. You worship an idol because you have developed an image of God in your mind that is not God. That is something Moses did not do. When God spoke to Him from the burning bush He didn't say "Oh well this can't be God because God can't be in a burning bush. " Yet you say this can't be God because He is in the body of a man. The only way you can say that is because God doesn't match the idol you have developed in your mind.
IF_u_knew
Curious
To not learn His character and how He "speaks" though is to set yourself up to false teachings and ideas.
I am speaking for ONLY myself here, but that part really jumped out at me as I struggled with this idea for quite sometimes. I remember not so very long ago (a few months ago) I was searching to find who/what was tugging on my heart. I KNEW I was being drawn like a magnet to it. I began to SEARCH like I have never searched for ANYTHING in my life. I could "hear this voice" (not like what some would think.. it is unexplainable) and I knew that I recognized this voice, but everywhere I looked I could not find that voice.
There were a few weeks where, after all that searching, I could almost literally hear the vain empty chatty voices of thousands of people (this is not a metaphor and I really thought I was going crazy) inside my head day and night (have you ever wondered what it would be like to hear the entire world's population talking at once? *that* was what I felt like I was hearing in my head). I FELT LOST and unsure. I was (no metaphor here either) walking around in a daze.... there was this "voice" that was different than ALL the other voices. I would be tending to the house with all these empty voices chatting away in my head.. "here is god" "there is god" and just like you "to say *this* is that G-d can't blah blah is to put Him in a box"... and I would find myself frozen quite often during that time (for instance, I would be sweeping and then I would notice that I was frozen in the midst of it for up to an hour sometimes) because there was that voice calling me that was different. I would desperately try to hear it and understand it. It became my obsession and my passion. I would go days without eating, sleeping, talking to anyone but my sons....
But that voice was hard to understand because everywhere I turned, every book I read, every voice I listened to, I KNEW IT WAS NOT HIS voice!
But then I came across something in the Bible. Malachi 3 : 5 "And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."
It was the first part of verse 6 that silenced ALL THE OTHER voices in my head immediately and testified to my heart that THIS was the voice calling me. And I KNEW that He did NOT lie and that His ways and words are constant and they are the light in the darkness pulling at me. The more I study, the more I realize that it was always there in the Bible, but I was looking at the wrong end of it growing up.
My point is not to convince you of anything. That is not my place. I know that G-d is in control of who comes to Him and finds Him and that my words have no bearing on it. But to recognize G-d is to recognize His character and there has to be a grounding point so that we can learn His character. Without that constant, then we would be lost. I KNOW that I was not placed here only to find out that anyone and everyone could be right. That is NOT the character of G-d and that is a dangerous concept to hold on to.
Just my two cents that, as usual, may not be worth much to anyone else; but it is worth more than gold to me personally
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Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
To not learn His character and how He "speaks" though is to set yourself up to false teachings and ideas.
I am speaking for ONLY myself here, but that part really jumped out at me as I struggled with this idea for quite sometimes. I remember not so very long ago (a few months ago) I was searching to find who/what was tugging on my heart. I KNEW I was being drawn like a magnet to it. I began to SEARCH like I have never searched for ANYTHING in my life. I could "hear this voice" (not like what some would think.. it is unexplainable) and I knew that I recognized this voice, but everywhere I looked I could not find that voice.
There were a few weeks where, after all that searching, I could almost literally hear the vain empty chatty voices of thousands of people (this is not a metaphor and I really thought I was going crazy) inside my head day and night (have you ever wondered what it would be like to hear the entire world's population talking at once? *that* was what I felt like I was hearing in my head). I FELT LOST and unsure. I was (no metaphor here either) walking around in a daze.... there was this "voice" that was different than ALL the other voices. I would be tending to the house with all these empty voices chatting away in my head.. "here is god" "there is god" and just like you "to say *this* is that G-d can't blah blah is to put Him in a box"... and I would find myself frozen quite often during that time (for instance, I would be sweeping and then I would notice that I was frozen in the midst of it for up to an hour sometimes) because there was that voice calling me that was different. I would desperately try to hear it and understand it. It became my obsession and my passion. I would go days without eating, sleeping, talking to anyone but my sons....
But that voice was hard to understand because everywhere I turned, every book I read, every voice I listened to, I KNEW IT WAS NOT HIS voice!
But then I came across something in the Bible. Malachi 3 : 5 "And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."
It was the first part of verse 6 that silenced ALL THE OTHER voices in my head immediately and testified to my heart that THIS was the voice calling me. And I KNEW that He did NOT lie and that His ways and words are constant and they are the light in the darkness pulling at me. The more I study, the more I realize that it was always there in the Bible, but I was looking at the wrong end of it growing up.
My point is not to convince you of anything. That is not my place. I know that G-d is in control of who comes to Him and finds Him and that my words have no bearing on it. But to recognize G-d is to recognize His character and there has to be a grounding point so that we can learn His character. Without that constant, then we would be lost. I KNOW that I was not placed here only to find out that anyone and everyone could be right. That is NOT the character of G-d and that is a dangerous concept to hold on to.
Just my two cents that, as usual, may not be worth much to anyone else; but it is worth more than gold to me personally
And to me too.
Ben: <*)))><