The suffering servant of isaiah 53

[Poisonshady313]

The principle is not that Jesus can't be God in the flesh but simply the worship of God must be the worhip of God in His essence: Holy Spirit. It is not a cop out it is absolute truth and your suggestion of a cop-out can't be substatntiated. You worship an idol because you have developed an image of God in your mind that is not God. That is something Moses did not do. When God spoke to Him from the burning bush He didn't say "Oh well this can't be God because God can't be in a burning bush. " Yet you say this can't be God because He is in the body of a man. The only way you can say that is because God doesn't match the idol you have developed in your mind.

It's funny... I'm stressing that there is no image of God... and you accuse me of idolatry.

God wasn't in the form of a bush. God wasn't hiding in the bush... the voice wasn't even coming from the bush. Moses heard God's voice while Moses was standing by a bush that God used to exhibit his manipulation of nature. God doesn't come in any form. God doesn't come or go... he is omnipresent. Insisting that he came in the form of Jesus is idolatry.

The whole idea of God incarnating is itself idolatry.

"You worship an idol because you have developed an image of God in your mind that is not God."

This statement, directed towards me, is highly moronic.
This statement, directed towards you, is truth... because I have no image of God in my mind. You do. Your image is a long haired, bearded Jewish fellow who was nailed to a cross 2000 years ago. That is not God.

 

[Ben Masada]

God doesn't come or go... he is omnipresent.

Poisonshady, that's interesting! God's doesn't come or go... He is Omnipresent.
To come or go implies movement. And movement implies both time and space.
And I do understand that we can't think of time and space with reference to God.
And also equally interesting is that God is the only Being we can think of not bound by time and space.

Ben: :clap

 

[AK4]

Poisonshady, that's interesting! God's doesn't come or go... He is Omnipresent.
To come or go implies movement. And movement implies both time and space.
And I do understand that we can't think of time and space with reference to God.
And also equally interesting is that God is the only Being we can think of not bound by time and space.

Ben: :clap

Your right we cant think of Him being bound by space and time, but YET if God the Father does something, ANYTHING, there begins some kind of time. Think about it.

Prov 8:22 "The Lord brought me forth (also means birthed, as in a woman given child birth, in twisted writhing pain(suffering servant)) as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; 23 I was appointed from eternity ----(olam = eternity? that doesnt make sense for there is no beginning for eternity and this Wisdom was brought forth, it should say obscurity or age, our puny minds just cant think of how long ago thats all),
H5769
עלם עולם
‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future)


---from the beginning, before the world began. 24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. 30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, 31 rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind.

I doubt you see your Lord and God in this? He was birthed from the Father. Use your mind man, Wisdom was birthed and then created the heavens and the earth. Wisdom was brought forth to someone or something to create the heavens and the earth. But you say there are no archangels and the like. So who does that mean it went to? Man? They werent created yet. Did it go to the Father? Come on now you know better.

Dare to answer?

ps notice throughout all of Gods Word if God wants say something important He repeats Himself, if He says something that is really important He says it a third time, if its more than three times you really better take notice

 

[Poisonshady313]

Your right we cant think of Him being bound by space and time, but YET if God the Father does something, ANYTHING, there begins some kind of time. Think about it.

Prov 8:22 "The Lord brought me forth (also means birthed, as in a woman given child birth, in twisted writhing pain(suffering servant)) as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; 23 I was appointed from eternity ----(olam = eternity? that doesnt make sense for there is no beginning for eternity and this Wisdom was brought forth, it should say obscurity or age, our puny minds just cant think of how long ago thats all),
H5769
עלם עולם
‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future)


---from the beginning, before the world began. 24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. 30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, 31 rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind.

I doubt you see your Lord and God in this? He was birthed from the Father. Use your mind man, Wisdom was birthed and then created the heavens and the earth. Wisdom was brought forth to someone or something to create the heavens and the earth. But you say there are no archangels and the like. So who does that mean it went to? Man? They werent created yet. Did it go to the Father? Come on now you know better.

Dare to answer?

ps notice throughout all of Gods Word if God wants say something important He repeats Himself, if He says something that is really important He says it a third time, if its more than three times you really better take notice

The Wisdom spoken of is the Torah. It is the blueprints of the universe.

Proverbs is a very poetic book. Solomon is writing it so that the speaker is the Torah.

 

[Ben Masada]

The Wisdom spoken of is the Torah. It is the blueprints of the universe.

Proverbs is a very poetic book. Solomon is writing it so that the speaker is the Torah.

You left me thinking rather about your expression "God the Father." What do you mean? Please, don't let me hanging in there thinking that you are a Trinitarian.
Have you been infected by the things of Christianity?

Since the very beginning I was avoiding your posts in the hope to use my time to enlighten the Gentiles, since according to Isaiah 42:6, we have been given as
light unto the nations. But if you are not one of ours, be ready because I'll be after your posts as a hauk after its prey.

Ben: <*)))><

 

[Poisonshady313]

You left me thinking rather about your expression "God the Father." What do you mean? Please, don't let me hanging in there thinking that you are a Trinitarian.
Have you been infected by the things of Christianity?

Since the very beginning I was avoiding your posts in the hope to use my time to enlighten the Gentiles, since according to Isaiah 42:6, we have been given as
light unto the nations. But if you are not one of ours, be ready because I'll be after your posts as a hauk after its prey.

Ben: <*)))><

For the sake of clarity, who is this post directed towards?

 

[Ben Masada]

For the sake of clarity, who is this post directed towards?

AK4

Sorry Poisonshady, I think I made a grave blunder.
Ben

 

[Poisonshady313]

AK4

Sorry Poisonshady, I think I made a grave blunder.
Ben

perhaps not a grave blunder....

you may want to pay more attention to where your quote tags are, so that we know exactly who you're talking to.

Also... you don't want to misattribute quotes. You've made it look like my words were originally posted by AK4 in post 265.

 

[AK4]

The Wisdom spoken of is the Torah. It is the blueprints of the universe.

Proverbs is a very poetic book. Solomon is writing it so that the speaker is the Torah.

Really! And the Torah was brought forth in writhing pain before everything in the heavens and earth were formed? Thats very interesting and yet that makes no sense. This book was made from what then? The earth wasnt formed yet.

 

[AK4]

You left me thinking rather about your expression "God the Father." What do you mean? Please, don't let me hanging in there thinking that you are a Trinitarian.
Have you been infected by the things of Christianity?

Since the very beginning I was avoiding your posts in the hope to use my time to enlighten the Gentiles, since according to Isaiah 42:6, we have been given as
light unto the nations. But if you are not one of ours, be ready because I'll be after your posts as a hauk after its prey.

Ben: <*)))><

Have you really been ignoring me that much ben? i figured you would read my posts and just refused to answer. Oh well anyways, I have have always stated that the Trinity doctrine is a false doctrine. Christains completely refuse to recognize such scriptures as these

Mat 1:20 &#8230;for that which is conceived in her (Mary) is of the HOLY SPIRIT.

2 John 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, THE SON OF THE FATHER, in truth and love

These two verses alone disproves the trinity doctrine. The Holy Spirit "impregnated" Mary so if It was a person of the trinity, It (the Holy Spirit) would be Jesus`s father. The Holy Spirit is the power of God and not a person or entity.

I had been infected with all the doctrines of christainity until God brought me out of her (COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE--Rev 18:4)---Did you get that? God calls His people out of the church He first put them in. But this isnt just to the christain church this is to all religions really.

Please see my post to IF_U_KNEW in IMPLICATION OF THE GENEOLOGY OF JESUS about the whos "light of world". I think i made it pretty plain there.

And no i not one of anyones religion i am...ha ha you should love this----Of the circumcision.:faint:

Edit---Oh shoot, i eeven got confused on that post disregard this post then

Edit Edit--Ok reading back through the posts again, im still confused.
Edit Edit Edit ---Poisonshady i think you did the same thing ben did in post 264 making it seem as if ben posted what i put. Anyway im still confused whos talking to who

 

[Ben Masada]

Have you really been ignoring me that much ben? i figured you would read my posts and just refused to answer. Oh well anyways, I have have always stated that the Trinity doctrine is a false doctrine. Christains completely refuse to recognize such scriptures as these

Mat 1:20 &#8230;for that which is conceived in her (Mary) is of the HOLY SPIRIT.

2 John 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, THE SON OF THE FATHER, in truth and love

These two verses alone disproves the trinity doctrine. The Holy Spirit "impregnated" Mary so if It was a person of the trinity, It (the Holy Spirit) would be Jesus`s father. The Holy Spirit is the power of God and not a person or entity.

I had been infected with all the doctrines of christainity until God brought me out of her (COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE--Rev 18:4)---Did you get that? God calls His people out of the church He first put them in. But this isnt just to the christain church this is to all religions really.

Please see my post to IF_U_KNEW in IMPLICATION OF THE GENEOLOGY OF JESUS about the whos "light of world". I think i made it pretty plain there.

And no i not one of anyones religion i am...ha ha you should love this----Of the circumcision.:faint:

Edit---Oh shoot, i eeven got confused on that post disregard this post then

Edit Edit--Ok reading back through the posts again, im still confused.
Edit Edit Edit ---Poisonshady i think you did the same thing ben did in post 264 making it seem as if ben posted what i put. Anyway im still confused whos talking to who

I am terribly sorry AK4! I made a terrible mistake. I thought I was giving reply to Poisonshady, when it was to you.
I hope I am not making a second mistake by removing the sweet Charity cookie from your mouth, after you took my reply as it were to you.
I know you are not Jewish. Poisonshady is. And I though that post of yours was his. I hope we get passed this blunder of mine without much further explaining.

Ben: <*)))><:sorry1:

 

[Poisonshady313]

Really! And the Torah was brought forth in writhing pain before everything in the heavens and earth were formed? Thats very interesting and yet that makes no sense. This book was made from what then? The earth wasnt formed yet.

You're confused... you think the Torah is just a book. The words, the ideas found in the book... it is God's Wisdom. Surely you don't believe that without the book, God is stupid... do you'?


Writhing pain? I think you just made that up.

 

[AK4]

You're confused... you think the Torah is just a book. The words, the ideas found in the book... it is God's Wisdom. Surely you don't believe that without the book, God is stupid... do you'?


Writhing pain? I think you just made that up.

No, never. the scriptures are not just a "book". But the way you portray it, you are saying the torah is what was brought forth is writhing twisted pain. Like it was the torah that created the heavens and the earth.

 

[Poisonshady313]

No, never. the scriptures are not just a "book". But the way you portray it, you are saying the torah is what was brought forth is writhing twisted pain.

Where does this writhing twisted pain come from? Where are you getting these words from? Seriously... provide a verse, or stop saying it.

Like it was the torah that created the heavens and the earth.

Do you not understand the difference between being someone and being WITH someone?

What part of "blueprints" don't you get?

The Torah is God's word.

How did God create the universe? Using His Word... He spoke, and it was.

 

[AK4]

Where does this writhing twisted pain come from? Where are you getting these words from? Seriously... provide a verse, or stop saying it.

Although i showed you before and you ignored it here you go again


Prov 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth (#02342); when there were no fountainsabounding with water.[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Strong's Number: 02342[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Browse Lexicon[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Original Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Word Origin[/FONT]lwx[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]a primitive root[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Transliterated Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TDNT Entry[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Chuwl[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TWOT - 623[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Phonetic Spelling[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Parts of Speech[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]khool [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Verb [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Definition[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

1. to twist, whirl, dance, writhe, fear, tremble, travail, be in anguish, be pained
   1. (Qal)
      1. to dance
      2. to twist, writhe
      3. to whirl, whirl about
   2. (Polel)
      1. to dance
      2. to writhe (in travail with), bear, bring forth
      3. to wait anxiously
   3. (Pulal)
      1. to be made to writhe, be made to bear
      2. to be brought forth
   4. (Hophal) to be born
   5. (Hithpolel)
      1. whirling (participle)
      2. writhing, suffering torture (participle)
      3. to wait longingly
   6. (Hithpalpel) to be distressed

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]King James Word Usage - Total: 62[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]pain 6, formed 5, bring forth 4, pained 4, tremble 4, travail 4, dance 2, calve 2, grieved 2, grievous 2, wounded 2, shake 2, miscellaneous 23[/FONT]

Now that should be pretty clear for you. So now tell me, how can this torah (as you try to say was brought forth from the before the works of old, creation) had been brought forth in (twist, whirl, dance, writhe, fear, tremble, travail, be in anguish, be pained) this sort of manner?

Do you not understand the difference between being someone and being WITH someone?

What part of "blueprints" don't you get?

The Torah is God's word.

How did God create the universe? Using His Word... He spoke, and it was.

You know i just love it when someone does this:foot::foot::foot:. Your own words will corner you.

So here we go. Now the talmud teaches those in judaism that God cannot have any "humanlike" qualities, you know the "great" Moses Maimonides and his negative theology, but YET what did you just do above---
"Do you not understand the difference between being someone and being WITH someone?"

So tell me, since this wisdom is expressing humanlike qualities and is not someone,but is WITH someone who has to be God, you are telling me that God got His wisdom in twisted writhing pain. Hold on let me rephrase that--

YOU ARE TELLING ME GOD GOT HIS WISDOM IN ALL THESE HUMANLIKE QUALITIES (twist, whirl, dance, writhe, fear, tremble, travail, be in anguish, be pained). BECAUSE AFTER ALL, THIS WISDOM, THIS TORAH WAS BROUGHT FORTH. YOU ARE TELLING ME WHILE GOD GOT THIS TORAH/BLUEPRINT HE SUFFERED?

You have a choice now, either it was the torah with all these humanlike qualities---please explain to me how words have humanlike qualities---or it was God who has all these qualities because you said "Do you not understand the difference between being someone and being WITH someone?"


Now i know the truth of the matter, but i present this to you the way you are arguing because you have to confront your own words and remember, to hold to your precious judaism, God cant have these human qualities

 

[AK4]

Just something for you non-believers to think about---


Isaiah 52 & 53 And The Suffering Servant:
Below is Isaiah 52:13-53:2 in the Babylonian Aramaic alphabet. Who is the suffering servant of Isaiah 52 and 53. Will we find his name as Yahweh or Yahshua? Beginning at Isaiah 52:13 after the word hineh and taking the first letter of every seventh letter what do we have? We have "Yeshua simon lemo". Interpreted as "YESHUA IS APPOINTED TO BE HIM."

The Sacred Name

 

[Muffled]

It's funny... I'm stressing that there is no image of God... and you accuse me of idolatry.

God wasn't in the form of a bush. God wasn't hiding in the bush... the voice wasn't even coming from the bush. Moses heard God's voice while Moses was standing by a bush that God used to exhibit his manipulation of nature. God doesn't come in any form. God doesn't come or go... he is omnipresent. Insisting that he came in the form of Jesus is idolatry.

The whole idea of God incarnating is itself idolatry.

"You worship an idol because you have developed an image of God in your mind that is not God."

This statement, directed towards me, is highly moronic.
This statement, directed towards you, is truth... because I have no image of God in my mind. You do. Your image is a long haired, bearded Jewish fellow who was nailed to a cross 2000 years ago. That is not God.

Ex 3:4 And when Jehovah saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

You have a false image of God not speaking out of the bush. I have the true image as revealed in Ex 3:4.

I never said that the body was God. That would be idolatry. I said that God dwelled in that body as the operative spirit in that body just as you dwell in your body as the operative spirit in your body. The physical form is temporary. It will die and you will move on to your next body. Which is the real you? Your spirit of course.

 

[IF_u_knew]

Just something for you non-believers to think about---


Isaiah 52 & 53 And The Suffering Servant:
Below is Isaiah 52:13-53:2 in the Babylonian Aramaic alphabet. Who is the suffering servant of Isaiah 52 and 53. Will we find his name as Yahweh or Yahshua? Beginning at Isaiah 52:13 after the word hineh and taking the first letter of every seventh letter what do we have? We have "Yeshua simon lemo". Interpreted as "YESHUA IS APPOINTED TO BE HIM."

Well, I am not surprised that Yeshua would be used at all in the Tanakh seeing that the names were depicting what was found BEHIND the names.
But, if we are going to put a name to the Messiah and the Suffering Servant, it undoubtedly will have to be the one the Tanakh uses... Michael which means "Who (is) like G.d?"

Daniel 10: 21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Isaiah confirms this as truth. In verse 11: He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Because the spirit of G.d has been with the servant as stated in chapter 42 of Isaiah, he will have come to understand the things listed in Isaiah 53; the purpose for it. And G.d's spirit will have opened the seals of the books to show him the truth... and thus, he will have the spirit of Michael ~ Who (*IS*) like G.d???!!! Suddenly, the servant will understand who he is and will KNOW G.d.. and be amazed at His brilliance!

As the collective Messiah awakes, they will understand why they *were* indeed cut off as spoken of in Daniel 9: 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince (note the capital "P".. it is the Messiah as the whole, not just the individual servant anymore) shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

BUT... as the servant sees the travail of "his" soul, "he" will take pleasure because "he" will understand the times "he" has found himself in and "he" will give knowledge thereby justifying the many! :shout

Daniel 12 also speaks of "Michael, the great prince" and "his" calling:

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.


It is actually even more interesting the more one sees! So, see, G.d was not lying when He made the following declarations (meaning that *you* and no other men have any need to twist things to fit Jesus into the picture because HE declared it and you will see, hopefully sooner than later)....

Isaiah 42:
8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. :yes:

18 Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see.
19 Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD's servant? (Jesus was not blind.. the Word attributed to him though spoke opening the eyes of the blind *wink*)

20 Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.
21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
22 But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore.
23 Who among you will give ear to this? who will hearken and hear for the time to come?

Isaiah 43:
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.(see that.. proof that Ben was right all along... though he has given more than sufficient proof to show that it is a collective)
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. (Remember the name Michael is the allegory for these witnesses!)

Isaiah 44:
6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.
8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.<--- lol I love that! Shows a piece of His Character

Isaiah 45:
11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

Why so many trust man over the ONE WHO CREATED the world and everything in it and above it is beyond me!! Look, we have barely scratched the surface of what is out "there" in the universe and yet so many seriously find it logical to believe their fellow ignorant human beings what the things said in the Tanakh is concerning?

Ask G.d... the Creator!! The Almighty! He declared it all, the problem is, so few are asking HIM for His understanding to be given! They hold on to their idols like a kid holds on to their security blanket and the idol will do no more to secure you than the security blanket does the little child. Time to grow up and ask the Father what HE meant by these things. :yes:

 

[Poisonshady313]

Although i showed you before and you ignored it here you go again


Prov 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth (#02342); when there were no fountainsabounding with water.[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Strong's Number: 02342[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Browse Lexicon[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Original Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Word Origin[/FONT]lwx[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]a primitive root[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Transliterated Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TDNT Entry[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Chuwl[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TWOT - 623[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Phonetic Spelling[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Parts of Speech[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]khool [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Verb [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Definition[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

1. to twist, whirl, dance, writhe, fear, tremble, travail, be in anguish, be pained
   1. (Qal)
      1. to dance
      2. to twist, writhe
      3. to whirl, whirl about
   2. (Polel)
      1. to dance
      2. to writhe (in travail with), bear, bring forth
      3. to wait anxiously
   3. (Pulal)
      1. to be made to writhe, be made to bear
      2. to be brought forth
   4. (Hophal) to be born
   5. (Hithpolel)
      1. whirling (participle)
      2. writhing, suffering torture (participle)
      3. to wait longingly
   6. (Hithpalpel) to be distressed

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]King James Word Usage - Total: 62[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]pain 6, formed 5, bring forth 4, pained 4, tremble 4, travail 4, dance 2, calve 2, grieved 2, grievous 2, wounded 2, shake 2, miscellaneous 23[/FONT]

Now that should be pretty clear for you. So now tell me, how can this torah (as you try to say was brought forth from the before the works of old, creation) had been brought forth in (twist, whirl, dance, writhe, fear, tremble, travail, be in anguish, be pained) this sort of manner?

Actually... that's rather bizarre and convoluted. "I was formed." Pretty straight forward. No adjectives there.

This alone voids the rest of your post.

 

[AK4]

Well, I am not surprised that Yeshua would be used at all in the Tanakh seeing that the names were depicting what was found BEHIND the names.
But, if we are going to put a name to the Messiah and the Suffering Servant, it undoubtedly will have to be the one the Tanakh uses... Michael which means "Who (is) like G.d?"

Daniel 10: 21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Isaiah confirms this as truth. In verse 11: He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Because the spirit of G.d has been with the servant as stated in chapter 42 of Isaiah, he will have come to understand the things listed in Isaiah 53; the purpose for it. And G.d's spirit will have opened the seals of the books to show him the truth... and thus, he will have the spirit of Michael ~ Who (*IS*) like G.d???!!! Suddenly, the servant will understand who he is and will KNOW G.d.. and be amazed at His brilliance!

As the collective Messiah awakes, they will understand why they *were* indeed cut off as spoken of in Daniel 9: 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince (note the capital "P".. it is the Messiah as the whole, not just the individual servant anymore) shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

BUT... as the servant sees the travail of "his" soul, "he" will take pleasure because "he" will understand the times "he" has found himself in and "he" will give knowledge thereby justifying the many! :shout

Daniel 12 also speaks of "Michael, the great prince" and "his" calling:

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.


It is actually even more interesting the more one sees! So, see, G.d was not lying when He made the following declarations (meaning that *you* and no other men have any need to twist things to fit Jesus into the picture because HE declared it and you will see, hopefully sooner than later)....

Isaiah 42:
8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. :yes:

18 Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see.
19 Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD's servant? (Jesus was not blind.. the Word attributed to him though spoke opening the eyes of the blind *wink*)

20 Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.
21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
22 But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore.
23 Who among you will give ear to this? who will hearken and hear for the time to come?

Isaiah 43:
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.(see that.. proof that Ben was right all along... though he has given more than sufficient proof to show that it is a collective)
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. (Remember the name Michael is the allegory for these witnesses!)

Isaiah 44:
6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.
8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.<--- lol I love that! Shows a piece of His Character

Isaiah 45:
11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

Why so many trust man over the ONE WHO CREATED the world and everything in it and above it is beyond me!! Look, we have barely scratched the surface of what is out "there" in the universe and yet so many seriously find it logical to believe their fellow ignorant human beings what the things said in the Tanakh is concerning?

Ask G.d... the Creator!! The Almighty! He declared it all, the problem is, so few are asking HIM for His understanding to be given! They hold on to their idols like a kid holds on to their security blanket and the idol will do no more to secure you than the security blanket does the little child. Time to grow up and ask the Father what HE meant by these things. :yes:

My point exactly!!! "Why do so many trust man or as you are doing trust in "a collective corrupt unspiritual messiah" who somehow will be coming with the clouds, approaching the Ancient of Days and ALL MANKIND WILL WORSHIP THEM AND NOT THE CREATOR!!

Its obsurd. They listen to a people who claim they are His "chosen" yet they practise many satanic rituals and traditions.

The problem is so many ARE asking those of a RELIGION, MEN who dont know God the Creator, for guidance as the blind shepards lead their blind sheep and the rest of the world in a PIT! Looking for understanding of His Word when they dont even understand His Word.

Yet, as you directed this post to me, you tell me i need to ask who the Father is. I know the Father, thats why my Father allows me to speak in His name. To say His complete name because to Him i am like a brother and to be beyond the fear of Him and to be able to cry to Him "abba Father". To say you know the Father but yet can only put G.d or G-d shows how much you are still in the dark let alone you are asking the blind to guide you to their g.d which they claim is themselves.

Its time to ask who you are worshipping and idolizing and ask the real God not g.d to reveal Himself to you.