The suffering servant of isaiah 53

[gnostic]

The disfigurement of the Suffering Servant means being removed from the picture, which means figure. That's what happened to Messiah ben Joseph, the Ten
Tribes which disappeared from the picture of the Land of Israel.

Huh?

It state that the Suffering Servant is disfigured, and don't look human. Which indicated he was deformed in some way.

What do you mean by "being removed from the picture, which means figure"?

I seriously don't understand.

About the Mary of Bethany with her crush for Jesus, that's Mary Magdalene, who
ended up getting married to Jesus, if you read my thread on "The Wedding of Jesus."

Yes, I have read that thread, and being involved.

I am the one who said that Mary of Bethany and Mary Magdalene are 2 different people. There's no indication one way or another that Magdalene have siblings.

I have also stated that are nothing is conclusive about any wedding of Jesus, though it might have been possible. The Gnostic texts in gospels of Mary Magdalene and of Philip, is the only one that admit intimacy between Jesus and Magdalene, but even in these 2 works, don't indicate they were married.

But here, we are straying from the point.

 

[Ben Masada]

Huh?

It state that the Suffering Servant is disfigured, and don't look human. Which indicated he was deformed in some way.

What do you mean by "being removed from the picture, which means figure"?

I seriously don't understand.



Yes, I have read that thread, and being involved.

I am the one who said that Mary of Bethany and Mary Magdalene are 2 different people. There's no indication one way or another that Magdalene have siblings.

I have also stated that are nothing is conclusive about any wedding of Jesus, though it might have been possible. The Gnostic texts in gospels of Mary Magdalene and of Philip, is the only one that admit intimacy between Jesus and Magdalene, but even in these 2 works, don't indicate they were married.

But here, we are straying from the point.

If you had read my thread on "The Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53" you would have understood without the shadow of a doubt, but I'll tell you again: According to Psalm
78:67,68, God rejected the Tent of Jacob by letting it be conquered by the Assyrians
and be blended down among the Gentiles till they completely lost their identity. On the same passage, God reconfirmed the anointing of Judah to stay forever as a Lamp in Jerusalem for the sake of David. (I Kings 11:36) Therefore, what I mean is that Israel, the Ten Tribes are gone for good. If there is any that out of nostalgia chose to keep some of the tradition, and eventually want to join back the Tribe that
survived they will have to convert just like any Gentile individual.

Ben :sorry1:

 

[AK4]

Originally Posted by AK4
Okay you say Hebrews---but thats not until Eber, so now you have the problem of those before him who God considered righteous

Never is not the right answer and even your own answer says that, but i wont address that right now.

Very good! Go and study your Bible first. When you feel sucure enough about what
you want to discuss with me, you can address whatever you want.

Ben

I didnt address the rest of the stuff you were saying because you have a knack of avoiding stuff when given more than one thing to concentrate on or you just give your copy and paste answer "that was an interpolation of Paul and his cronies"

So back to the question

Explain Those before Eber

 

[Ben Masada]

I didnt address the rest of the stuff you were saying because you have a knack of avoiding stuff when given more than one thing to concentrate on or you just give your copy and paste answer "that was an interpolation of Paul and his cronies"

So back to the question

Explain Those before Eber

My answers are repeated according to the questions. If you keep asking over and over again the same questions, it's because you like to have the same answers.

When you realize that I have avoided a point you have raised, it's because it makes no sense to me. I find it much better just to avoid it than to hurt your feelings
by saying that it makes no sense.

Ben

 

[gnostic]

When you realize that I have avoided a point you have raised, it's because it makes no sense to me. I find it much better just to avoid it than to hurt your feelings
by saying that it makes no sense.

*sigh*

Then it is better for you to say it, "makes no sense" and hurt his feeling, so he can rephrase his question more clearly to you, so that you can answer him properly, instead of avoiding the question.

*puff, puff*

:thud:

:sorry1:My answer was a bit long that I need to catch my breath.

 

[Muffled]

Remember... Isaiah 53 is not a messianic prophecy. Thus, the two texts need not support each other.[/color][/size]

I don't know how you assess Messiahship. It is true that Moses delivered his people out of physical bondage but that does not mean that all deliverance has to be physical. IMO it is just as much a deliverance from bondage to deliver people from bondage to sin. This is what Isaiah begins sying in CH 52 and continues in 53.

Isa 52:9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem; for Jehovah hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.
10 Jehovah hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.
If the concept is that of "the Anointed one", that would come from God as does any promotion. So this verse fits that aspect:
Isa 52:13 ¶ Behold, my servant shall deal wisely, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high.
The wording is interesting considering that Jesus said the same thing:
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up;
15 that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life.

 

[AK4]

*sigh*

Then it is better for you to say it, "makes no sense" and hurt his feeling, so he can rephrase his question more clearly to you, so that you can answer him properly, instead of avoiding the question.

*puff, puff*

:thud:

:sorry1:My answer was a bit long that I need to catch my breath.

Exactly.

 

[AK4]

My answers are repeated according to the questions. If you keep asking over and over again the same questions, it's because you like to have the same answers.

When you realize that I have avoided a point you have raised, it's because it makes no sense to me. I find it much better just to avoid it than to hurt your feelings
by saying that it makes no sense.

Ben

Believe me i doubt there is anything you can say that could hurt my feelings. Im not sensitive so if i state something unscriptural, correct me and reprove me is all i ask

Ps 141:5 - Let the righteous smite me; it shall be a kindness: and let him reprove me; it shall be an excellent oil, which shall not break my head: for yet my prayer also shall be in their calamities.
Eph 5:11 -And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
(oh you wont like that last one because it was from Paul )

I try to use scripture to do most of the talking for me so its not necessarily me that you are not understanding, its Gods Word you are not understanding.

You avoid my questions because you know you are backed into a corner with the scriptures i throw at you and they make your religion or house come crashing down, or shall i quote Jesus

Matt 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house (your religion) upon the sand: 27 And the rain (the truth of the Word of God) descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Besides what doesnt make sense with "Explain Those before Eber". Your Jewish, you guys are superior on knowledge of God because "without you guys we would be worshipping rocks and cave drawings" so you should have an answer for us cavedwellers.

What is so hard to understand? What Makes a person a Jew or a gentile? Is it lineage? Well then you have the problem of those before Judah before Abraham before Eber--the Father of the Hebrews. What about Enoch, Adam, Methusalah, Seth, Noah etc. God considered them righteous. Are they Jews or Hebrew?

I will hold my breath waiting for an answer. SOMEBODY CALL 911:thud::faint:

 

[Ben Masada]

Believe me i doubt there is anything you can say that could hurt my feelings. Im not sensitive so if i state something unscriptural, correct me and reprove me is all i ask

Ps 141:5 - Let the righteous smite me; it shall be a kindness: and let him reprove me; it shall be an excellent oil, which shall not break my head: for yet my prayer also shall be in their calamities.

+++Ben: You see? Sometimes I can agree with you.

Eph 5:11 -And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
(oh you wont like that last one because it was from Paul )

+++Ben: It's not that I don't like it. I just don't need anything from him, when I have better than what he says in my own Scriptures.

I try to use scripture to do most of the talking for me so its not necessarily me that you are not understanding, its Gods Word you are not understanding.

+++Ben: Yes, but you can be cunny even in the use of the Scriptures.

You avoid my questions because you know you are backed into a corner with the scriptures i throw at you and they make your religion or house come crashing down, or shall i quote Jesus

+++Ben: But only 20 percent of him. More than that is Pauline.

Matt 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house (your religion) upon the sand: 27 And the rain (the truth of the Word of God) descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

+++Ben: This one above is against yourself. Jesus came to confirm Judaism to the letter according to Matthew 5:17-19 and you remain unmoved on the other side of the fence.

Besides what doesnt make sense with "Explain Those before Eber". Your Jewish, you guys are superior on knowledge of God because "without you guys we would be worshipping rocks and cave drawings" so you should have an answer for us cavedwellers.

+++Ben: Believe me, you are not making sense. What is there to know about this Eber? He was a descendant of Shem, son of Noah. And he lived long before Abraham. Whatelse is there to learn about him?

What is so hard to understand? What Makes a person a Jew or a gentile? Is it lineage? Well then you have the problem of those before Judah before Abraham before Eber--the Father of the Hebrews. What about Enoch, Adam, Methusalah, Seth, Noah etc. God considered them righteous. Are they Jews or Hebrew?

+++Ben: The Hebrews came from those illustrious people you have mentioned above, and the Israelites came from the Hebrews, and the Jews came from the Israelites. I think I have told you this before. They were righteous people. What about it?

I will hold my breath waiting for an answer. SOMEBODY CALL 911:thud::faint:

That's rather funny.:clap

Ben

 

[AK4]

Just a quick response for now


+++Ben: Yes, but you can be cunny even in the use of the Scriptures.

Cunny? I think you mean cunning but anyway then this should be a little light to you to see that the whole Word of God is one (OT and NT, Genesis to Revelations) and that includes Pauls writings. Even though you refuse to accept this.

I want you to notice something Ben seriously, i have stooped (maybe thats a too strong of a word but anyway)to your level and i have been refuting you with mostly verses from the OT and have been rarely using anything from Paul or his cronies as you would say and only some from Jesus himself. Go back and read and you will see this. If i used more stuff from the NT you would really be cornered. So if you think i was cunning and you go back and see that i have been using mostly OT verses shouldnt this say something to you.

 

[Ben Masada]

Just a quick response for now


+++Ben: Yes, but you can be cunny even in the use of the Scriptures.

Cunny? I think you mean cunning but anyway then this should be a little light to you to see that the whole Word of God is one (OT and NT, Genesis to Revelations) and that includes Pauls writings. Even though you refuse to accept this.

I want you to notice something Ben seriously, i have stooped (maybe thats a too strong of a word but anyway)to your level and i have been refuting you with mostly verses from the OT and have been rarely using anything from Paul or his cronies as you would say and only some from Jesus himself. Go back and read and you will see this. If i used more stuff from the NT you would really be cornered. So if you think i was cunning and you go back and see that i have been using mostly OT verses shouldnt this say something to you.

Yes, the word is cunning. I am sorry.
But the Word of God is not from Genesis to Revelation. You can hold your horses right there! Anything after Malachi was added against the injunction of Deuteronomy 4:2; 13:1; and Proverb 30:6.

Ben

 

[AK4]

Yes, the word is cunning. I am sorry.
But the Word of God is not from Genesis to Revelation. You can horld your horses right there! Anything after Malachi was added against the injunction of Deuteronomy 4:2; 13:1; and Proverb 30:6.

Ben

If you say this then why do you accept some of the teachings of Jesus and Him being Messiah ben Joseph. Why do you accept Him some verses like "salvation is of the Jews". Come now Ben you are slipping on me.

 

[Ben Masada]

If you say this then why do you accept some of the teachings of Jesus and Him being Messiah ben Joseph. Why do you accept Him some verses like "salvation is of the Jews". Come now Ben you are slipping on me.

Oh, come on! You know the answer to that! The NT does not mean a thing to me. And I mean the whole of it. I use what suits me to trap Christians in their own
discrepancies. And that's exactly the same opinion of every single Jew who has not left Judaism.

Ben

 

[AK4]

Oh, come on! You know the answer to that! The NT does not mean a thing to me. And I mean the whole of it. I use what suits me to trap Christians in their own
discrepancies. And that's exactly the same opinion of every single Jew who has not left Judaism.

Ben

Trap? Well i have yet to see you trap anyone yet and at least with me you havent bought the supplies yet to trap me.

That was a little harsh and i apologise.

So since the NT means nothing to you then youve just set the trap on yourself because how can you use that verse in the NT if it means nothing

You say physical Jews (your collective messiah) are the light to the gentiles and You say salvation is of the physical jews (your collective messiah) and its not Jesus so heres what the Lord says
Ps 27:1 - The LORD is my light and my salvation; Jon 2:9 - Salvation is of the LORD. (Ahh this one is so clear) Jer 3:23 - Truly in vain is salvation hoped for from the hills, and from the multitude of mountains: truly in the LORD our God is the salvation of Israel (but i thought Messiah be Joseph was the saviour of Isreal and not the Lord. Or is He Lord now?)

 

[Ben Masada]

So since the NT means nothing to you then youve just set the trap on yourself because how can you use that verse in the NT if it means nothing.

+++Ben: I don't use it for me but for you. If you think you are not trapped, why don't
you explain why the Jesus of Luke was back in Nazareth when Jesus was only 33 days
old, while the Jesus of Matthew was still in Egypt waiting for Herod to die? Come on! Try to get off this one. Read the thread first before you venture out of the trap.

You say physical Jews (your collective messiah) are the light to the gentiles.

+++Ben: I didn't say so off the top of my head. I copied it from Isaiah. Why don't you
read Isaiah 42:6? On the way to Isaiah, you can stop by Jesus and hear from him talking to Jews and saying that they are the light of the world. (Mat. 5:14) Therefore, don't shoot the messenger if you don't like the message.

You say salvation is of the physical jews (your collective messiah) and its not Jesus so heres what the Lord says

+++Ben: Isaiah 43:11 - I, even I, Am the Lord; and besides Me there is no Saviour.
This is for individual salvation. If you want for worldly salvation, you can indulge
yourself with John 4:22 from Jesus himself, that "salvation is of the Jews." I always
said here that the Almighty is our only Saviour and there is no other.

Ben:

 

[AK4]

+++Ben: I don't use it for me but for you. If you think you are not trapped, why don't
you explain why the Jesus of Luke was back in Nazareth when Jesus was only 33 days
old, while the Jesus of Matthew was still in Egypt waiting for Herod to die? Come on! Try to get off this one. Read the thread first before you venture out of the trap.

Uhhh okay i'll read it, which heresy is it this time?

I comment on the rest later

 

[Ben Masada]

+++Ben: I don't use it for me but for you. If you think you are not trapped, why don't
you explain why the Jesus of Luke was back in Nazareth when Jesus was only 33 days
old, while the Jesus of Matthew was still in Egypt waiting for Herod to die? Come on! Try to get off this one. Read the thread first before you venture out of the trap.

Uhhh okay i'll read it, which heresy is it this time?

I comment on the rest later

Sorry, the thread is "Were There Two Different Jesuses?"

Ben:sorry1:

 

[AK4]

+++Ben: I didn't say so off the top of my head. I copied it from Isaiah. Why don't you
read Isaiah 42:6? On the way to Isaiah, you can stop by Jesus and hear from him talking to Jews and saying that they are the light of the world. (Mat. 5:14) Therefore, don't shoot the messenger if you don't like the message.

Yes when Jesus said this He was talking to His disciples not all the Jews

Matt5:1 Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them, saying:

His disciples is who He taught not the multitudes. The multitudes He only spoke in parables

Matt 13:10 The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" 11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

Mt 13:34 - Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.
So as for whos the light/salt of the world its His disciples which is not exclusively Jews but also gentiles

+++Ben: I didn't say so off the top of my head. I copied it from Isaiah. Why don't you
read Isaiah 42:6? On the way to Isaiah, you can stop by Jesus and hear from him talking to Jews and saying that they are the light of the world. (Mat. 5:14) Therefore, don't shoot the messenger if you don't like the message.

This talking of those who are His disciples who are the believers and followers of His commands and these are the real Jews and Isrealites in Gods eyes. Should i back this up with scripture

 

[Ben Masada]

+++Ben: I didn't say so off the top of my head. I copied it from Isaiah. Why don't you read Isaiah 42:6? On the way to Isaiah, you can stop by Jesus and hear from him talking to Jews and saying that they are the light of the world. (Mat. 5:14) Therefore, don't shoot the messenger if you don't like the message.

Yes when Jesus said this He was talking to His disciples not all the Jews
Matt5:1 Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them, saying:

+++Ben: You don't even know how to read your own Bible. I'll teach you. But first here is how you understand: Jesus saw the crowds, and went on the mountainside to make himself heard better, and then he started delivering the Sermon of the Mount in the ears of the disciples. If this makes sense to you, you are the only one on earth to see sense in nonsense. What happened when he finished speaking? If you read Matthew 7:28, you will see (or perhaps not because of your faith) that the crowds were spellbound at his teaching. I wonder why Jesus did not say to the crowds not to get spellbound because he had not meant a word to them but all to the disciples only. No, I don't think you are that blind. You must have joked to say that Jesus spoke in the ears of the disciples only.

His disciples is who He taught not the multitudes. The multitudes He only spoke in parables

+++Ben: Sure! You deserve Nobel Prize for your wisdom.

Matt 13:10 The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" 11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

+++Ben: There must be why you are so wise.

Mt 13:34 - Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.
So as for whos the light/salt of the world its His disciples which is not exclusively Jews but also gentiles

+++Ben: As I can see, you are not at all familiar with the Jesus you worship. For Jesus to say that the Gentiles are the light of the world, you are way out of touch
with reality. Jesus had rather an aversion to Gentiles. He used to forbid his disciples
to take the gospel of the Kingdom of God to Gentiles. Read Matthew 10:6 again.

This talking of those who are His disciples who are the believers and followers of His commands and these are the real Jews and Isrealites in Gods eyes. Should i back this up with scripture.

+++Ben: You don't have it. You say that because you think I will not feedback.

Ben

 

[AK4]

+++Ben: You don't even know how to read your own Bible. I'll teach you. But first here is how you understand: Jesus saw the crowds, and went on the mountainside to make himself heard better, and then he started delivering the Sermon of the Mount in the ears of the disciples. If this makes sense to you, you are the only one on earth to see sense in nonsense. What happened when he finished speaking? If you read Matthew 7:28, you will see (or perhaps not because of your faith) that the crowds were spellbound at his teaching. I wonder why Jesus did not say to the crowds not to get spellbound because he had not meant a word to them but all to the disciples only. No, I don't think you are that blind. You must have joked to say that Jesus spoke in the ears of the disciples only.

Oh ye of little faith. You say the CROWDS were spellbound right? What does the word used for crowds mean in the greek

1ochlos (Noun) (vines NT dict.)

"a confused throng," is usually translated "multitude." The RV translates it "crowd" (AV, "press" in some) See COMPANY, MULTITUDE, NUMBER, PEOPLE.

So you remember where i quoted Jesus only spoke in parables to the multitudes right? Good. Now while His disciples were there with all the crowd Jesus continues to speak in parables to everyone. But He is saying all the time "you". Lets look at it--

"...and when He was set, His DISCIPLES came unto Him" (Matt. 5:1)
"And He opened His mouth, and taught THEM [His disciples]" (Ver. 2).
"Blessed are YE [all you disciples]..." (Ver. 11).
"...for great is YOUR [disciples'] reward..." (Ver. 12).
YE [disciples] are the salt of the earth..." (Ver. 13).
"YE [disciples] are the light of the world..." (Ver. 14).
"Let YOUR [disciples'] light so shine..." (Ver. 16).
"For verily I say unto YOU [disciples]..." (Ver. 18).
"For I say unto YOU [disciples]..." (Ver. 20).
"YE [disciples] have heard that it was said..." (Ver. 21).
"But I say unto YOU [disciples]... whosoever is angry..." (Ver. 22).
"But I say unto YOU [disciples]... shall say to his brother, Raca..." (Ver. 22).
"But I say unto YOU [disciples]... whosoever shall say , 'You fool' shall be in danger of hell [Gehenna] fire" (Ver. 22).
"Therefore if YOU [disciples] bring your gift..." (Ver. 23).
"Agree with YOUR [disciples] adversary quickly..." (Ver. 25).
"Veryily I say unto YOU [disciples], YOU [disciples] shall by no means come out thence, till YOU [disciples] have paid the uttermost farthing" (Ver. 26).
"But I say unto YOU [disciples], that whosoever looks on a woman to lust..." (Ver. 28).
"And if YOUR right eye offend YOU [disciples], pluck it out, and cast it from YOU: for it is profitable for YOU [disciples] that one of YOUR members should perish, and not that YOUR whole body [the bodies of Christ's disciples, not the wicked unbelievers in the day of Judgment] should be cast into hell [Gehenna fire]" (Ver. 29).
"And if YOUR right hand offend YOU, cut it off, and cast it from YOU: for it is profitable for YOU [disciples of Mine] that one of YOUR members should perish, and not that YOUR whole body should be cast into hell [Gehenna fire]" (Verse 30).

Now everyone heard this, but is it directed towards them all? Yes and no. For in this age it is directed to His Elect (and His Elect are compised of gentiles and some jews)but in the next age it is directed to everyone else who has ever lived.

This crowd was confused after Jesus finished. They didnt understand parables and neither did His disciples at the time and neither do you and most of the world today. Yes, Jesus was talking to everyone then like He is today and saying "YOU"(yes you Ben), but is everyone (YOU) understanding and knowing what He is talking about? NO!

Its just like Barak Obama saying "yes WE can do it" to the crowds, but is everyone in "WE" crowd gonna do anything? Please dont be niave.

11 Jesus F297 answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. ....13 "Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing R481 they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 "In F298 their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, `YOU R482 F299 WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT F300 WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; YOU F301 WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE; 15 FOR R483 THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'

But what does He do for His disciples?---
Mt 13:36 - Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
And Jesus tells them THE MEANING, the disciples not the multitudes. Therefore I am for sure that you and most of the people in the Judaism religion have no idea what any of the parables mean. Actually you proved this when you tried to interpret this parable in another thread

Mt 13:33 - Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
Oh how far off base you were:run::banghead3