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The suffering servant of isaiah 53
- Thread starter Ben Masada
- Start date
AK4
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Ben Masada
Now, tell me please, do you expect me to clap for ignorance? You have just showed me that you do not understand even your NT.
Let's take Matthew 7:6 which you quote above to charge me with being swine or dog. I pity you, do you know why?
Because you don't know what you are talking about. Matthew 7:6 is part of the Sermon of the Mount.
A Sermon that Jesus delivered to a crowd of Jews, which at the end of the Sermon were left spellbound at Jesus teaching. (Mat. 7:28)
Therefore, when Jesus said not to throw what is holy to dogs and not to toss their pearls before swine, he was speaking to crowds of Jews.
So, dogs and swine in the mind of Jesus were the Gentiles, not the Jews. Are you reversing the roles here when as a Gentile you refer to a Jew as dog or swine?
That's not what Jesus meant.
Oh let me further the thought from the last post (this isnt part of the dare)
Anyway its interesting you stop at Matt 7:28. What does the next verse say--29 because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.
Who was the teachers?--the pharisees! Were the pharisees Jews? uhh yeah. But didnt you say in another thread that Jesus didnt upbraid the pharisees, that that was stories made up by Paul and his cronies. But you believe the sermon on the mount but now you will take away this verse wont you to protect what you believe about Jews?
Dont let this post be your excuse from answering the last post
Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
+++Ben: - Gosh! Anyone with the minimum of commonsense knows that you were caught with your pants down.
I told you already that only 20 percent of the NT is worthy believing. Why don't you defend Jesus from his aversion to Gentiles?
I was expecting something more in terms of a defense of Jesus than a sudden change of subject. Is he still your savior?
How could he extend salvation to dogs? Mind you that Jesus was the only Jew ever in my life to have considered Gentiles as dogs and swine.
I don't agree with him on this one, but in a way I am glad that he was the one with that kind of racism and not another Jew.
Ben :slap:
Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
AK4
Well-Known Member
Okay you answered this one now answer the one before it too and i will answer both. Dont avoid the first one now. Im not gonna let you off the hook from that one---boy doesnt this seem like what Jesus said TO THE PHARISEES--
Mt 21:24 -Jesus replied, "I will also ask you one question. If you answer me, I will tell you by what authority I am doing these things.
Dont answer this post answer the one i DARED YOU to answer! Just in case you forgot which one it was--
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Masada
Now, tell me please, do you expect me to clap for ignorance? You have just showed me that you do not understand even your NT.
Let's take Matthew 7:6 which you quote above to charge me with being swine or dog. I pity you, do you know why?
Because you don't know what you are talking about. Matthew 7:6 is part of the Sermon of the Mount.
A Sermon that Jesus delivered to a crowd of Jews, which at the end of the Sermon were left spellbound at Jesus teaching. (Mat. 7:28)
Therefore, when Jesus said not to throw what is holy to dogs and not to toss their pearls before swine, he was speaking to crowds of Jews.
So, dogs and swine in the mind of Jesus were the Gentiles, not the Jews. Are you reversing the roles here when as a Gentile you refer to a Jew as dog or swine?
That's not what Jesus meant.
Gee i wonder why you didnt clap? For it is you who is in ignorance. You dont know what is a Jew and what is a gentile. Is it something that Paul made up? No. I would show proof but i want you to answer to show your ignorance of scripture so i can prove you wrong once again and SHOW how i would be tossing my pearls to swine and dogs. Dare you answer the question and show your ignorance? Of course you wont you will avoid it like all the other times i have put you in this type of situation.
Quote:
Do you wanna hear something else from Jesus about Gentiles? When a Gentile woman came to him and begged of him to cure her daughter,
Jesus answered and said that it was not fair to take from the food of the children (Jews) and throw it unto the dogs. (Gentiles) That's in Matthew 15:26,27.
So you accept this as true huh? Good now whats the next verse--28 Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
But didnt you say in another thread where faith starts knowledge ends! Yes you did. But do you understand that? No No you dont! Do you understand what verse 28 means-- Jesus HEALED A GENTILE AND GRANTED HER REQUEST. But you say that Jesus only came to save the Israelites. OOPS!
Quote:
Do you want more? Every time that Jesus sent his disciples in a mission about the Kingdom of God and bring cures to the diseases of the people,
he would warn them not to visit Gentiles and not even enter a Samaritan town. That's also in Matthew 10:6,7. I think that's enough so that next time you think to charge a Jew with being dog or swine, you will think that Jesus' aversion was not against Jews but Gentiles.
Is this your proof? Oh boy you need help. Did Peter, you know the one who you say was sent to the gentiles, enter into Cornelious house in Acts? Matt 10 is your proof again? Now read the whole thing. Lets see what verse 16 says--16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves
So Jesus sent them only to the Jews and then Jesus calls the Jews wolves! So what would Jesus be calling you!
Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
Jesus was never at variance with the Pharisees. He was himself of the same line.
If Jesus had something against the authorities, it was against the Sadducees, not Pharisees.
The one who held a grudge against the Pharisees all his life was Paul, because the Pharisees never allowed him to start a church in Israel.
And mind you, the Nazarenes, disciples of Jesus were on the side of the Pharisees against Paul.
Ben
AK4
Well-Known Member
Jesus was never at variance with the Pharisees. He was himself of the same line.
If Jesus had something against the authorities, it was against the Sadducees, not Pharisees.
The one who held a grudge against the Pharisees all his life was Paul, because the Pharisees never allowed him to start a church in Israel.
And mind you, the Nazarenes, disciples of Jesus were on the side of the Pharisees against Paul.
Ben
Okay let me clarify again because you being a "Jew" i didnt think i would have to be so specific---Use scripture and not your opinion to prove your point! Gosh!! I could argue with you back with just my opinion like you just did but my and your opinion dont matter---even though i could prove scripturally, your words are just that-- YOUR WORDS!!
Also prove this---
You have yet through all your posts and threads to prove this. PROVE IT SCRIPTURALLY!!! All we keep getting is just your words-- i have an open mind--convert me
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AK4
Well-Known Member
+++AK4 Gee i wonder why you didnt clap? For it is you who is in ignorance. You dont know what is a Jew and what is a gentile. Is it something that Paul made up? No. I would show proof but i want you to answer to show your ignorance of scripture so i can prove you wrong once again and SHOW how i would be tossing my pearls to swine and dogs. Dare you answer the question and show your ignorance? Of course you wont you will avoid it like all the other times i have put you in this type of situation.
+++Ben: - You can say whatever you want about my being ignorant of Scriptures. I don't care for the reason that I know you are sure I am not.
In fact, if it was not for us the Jews, you would still be in the cave worshipping the stone and the fire; and perhaps even a block of wood in the form of a demon.
If it was not for us the Jews, you would not have a Bible to read. If it was not for us the Jews you would not have a Messiah to claim redemption.
If it was not for us the Jews, you would not have even a god to worship istead of the stone, the wood and the fire.
You gave this answer four times before but the issue here is ANSWER THE QUESTION ABOVE BY ME.
I will not distract you with an answer to the rest of your post. Just answer the question please!
+++Ben: - You can say whatever you want about my being ignorant of Scriptures. I don't care for the reason that I know you are sure I am not.
In fact, if it was not for us the Jews, you would still be in the cave worshipping the stone and the fire; and perhaps even a block of wood in the form of a demon.
If it was not for us the Jews, you would not have a Bible to read. If it was not for us the Jews you would not have a Messiah to claim redemption.
If it was not for us the Jews, you would not have even a god to worship istead of the stone, the wood and the fire.
You gave this answer four times before but the issue here is ANSWER THE QUESTION ABOVE BY ME.
Scripturally, what is a Jew and what is a gentile? (Holding my breath for an answer)
I will not distract you with an answer to the rest of your post. Just answer the question please!
Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
About the answer I had given you before, it was just a reminder for the man who feeds the dog and is beaten in return.
Now, for the question of who is a Jew and who is a Gentile, I think you are up to provoke me again. But I am gonna give it a shot: A Jew is the one who besides being born of a Jewish mother, remains loyal to Judaism. He doesn't have to practise Judaism as long as he won't confess the tenets of another religion, especially Christianity. A Gentile is the opposite of a Jew.
The "born of a Jewish mother" above, I mean according to Rabbinical Judaism. According to Biblical Judaism, the father was the one to transmit Jewishness to the next generation. I agree with the innovation of Rabbinical Judaism though.
Ben :rainbow1:
Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
Prove to me that Jesus was the Messiah. Prove to me that Jesus was son of God. Prove to me that Jesus resurrected. If you cannot prove to me what you say, how
can you demand that I prove to you what I say? My assertions are based on NT evidences. For instance, the disciples of Jesus, called the Nazarenes, were headquartered in Jerusalem for more than 20 years getting along quite well with mainstream Judaism, and making converts even among the Pharisees. This is proof that they were not at
variance with the Pharisees. Paul shows up in Jerusalem preaching that Jesus was the Messiah, son of God and that he had resurrected, and almost got killed for preaching heresy. Why don't you put your mind to think and ask yourself what the very disciples of Jesus were preaching about him? It's only obvious that all those things about Jesus
were fabricated by Paul. (Acts 9:20,29; 17:3) Then, any kind of hostility attributed to Jesus against the Pharisees was made up by the authors of the gospels, who were Paul's disciples, in order to hide that the real grudge against the Pharisees was from Paul. You have to think and be a little more analytical.
Ben
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AK4
Well-Known Member
Yes, honestly i was provoking you to answer the question and that was all. Now as what is a Jew let me provoke you some more. When did God start calling anyone a Jew? Think about it first before answering. I will give you a clue. Was Jacob a Jew? Isaac? Abraham? Noah? Enoch? Adam? And one more clue--Why would these men be considered a Jew IF they were born before Judah?
AK4
Well-Known Member
I believe i answered this last paragraph with the statement above.Prove to me that Jesus was the Messiah. Prove to me that Jesus was son of God. Prove to me that Jesus resurrected. If you cannot prove to me what you say, how
can you demand that I prove to you what I say? My assertions are based on NT evidences.
Here the conventional evidence that anyone can pull up off the internet
365 Messianic Prophecies
but i have a more indept proof using even more scriptures. Im just not gonna post it now
For instance, the disciples of Jesus, called the Nazarenes, were headquartered in Jerusalem for more than 20 years getting along quite well with mainstream Judaism, and making converts even among the Pharisees. This is proof that they were not at
variance with the Pharisees.
Where is your scriptural proof of this of converting the Pharisees. Now lets be analyical here. Throughout all the OT the prophets were at odds with most of the Isrealites and Jews for not believing their report. Now all of a sudden Jesus shows up and they start believing? Even when you have OT prophecies stating how they wouldnt believe! Come on now :thud:
Paul shows up in Jerusalem preaching that Jesus was the Messiah, son of God and that he had resurrected, and almost got killed for preaching heresy. Why don't you put your mind to think and ask yourself what the very disciples of Jesus were preaching about him? It's only obvious that all those things about Jesus
were fabricated by Paul. (Acts 9:20,29; 17:3) Then, any kind of hostility attributed to Jesus against the Pharisees was made up by the authors of the gospels, who were Paul's disciples, in order to hide that the real grudge against the Pharisees was from Paul. You have to think and be a little more analytical.
Ben
Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
Oh! That was not a provocation. Rather too easy. You ask me "When did God star calling anyone a Jew?" Never!
Until Jacob, they were called Hebrews. After Jacob they were called Israelites. After the split of the Tribes, the Ten Tribes of the North kept the name, Israel, hence Israelites, and the two Tribes loyal to David in the South became known as Judah or Judahites.
Israel was conquered by Assyria and got lost among the Gentiles. Judah was conquered by Babylon and as they returned after 70 years of exile, that's when they
became know officially as Jews. Prophetically Isaiah named them the House of Jacob called by the name Israel from the stock or branch or shoot of Judah. (Isa. 48:1)
Ben :clap
AK4
Well-Known Member
Okay you say Hebrews---but thats not until Eber, so now you have the problem of those before him who God considered righteous
Never is not the right answer and even your own answer says that, but i wont address that right now.
Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
AK4, you ask me for scriptural proofs that there were converts from among the Pharisees. If you read chapter 15 of Acts, you will see that there was a Council in Jerusalem to solve a problem between Paul and some Nazarenes from Judea who had created a hot debate as the Nazarenes were trying to recover the Synagogues that Paul had overturned into Christian churches. Among the members of the Council were some of the Pharisees who had converted. And they would insist that the Gentiles had to undergo circumcision. That's in verse 5. That's not the first time that you ask. So, underline the passage in order not to keep asking the same thing over and over again.
Ben
Ben
Muffled
Jesus in me
This does not agree with Isaiah 53:3 He was despised, and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and as one from whom men hide their face he was despised; and we esteemed him not. Also I see nothing in the text of Isa 42 that supports the footnote.
I would agree on that since jesus is not seen as the sacrificer but as "the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world."
Jesus is the embodiment of a new law that also fulfills the old law:
Isa 42:4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
Remember... Isaiah 53 is not a messianic prophecy. Thus, the two texts need not support each other.
Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
gnostic
The Lost One
The problem with associating the Suffering Servant with Jesus it would seem that the Suffering Servant have always being disfigured and deformed (Isaiah 52:14, 53:2-3).
And nothing indicated this Suffering Servant was ever the Messiah.
- His disfigurements had made him look, un-human. Jesus may have tormented and tortured at the end of his life, nothing says that Jesus was disfigured before his arrest.
- The SS was never admired, which is not true with Jesus. And Mary of Bethany even seemed to have a big crush for Jesus.
And nothing indicated this Suffering Servant was ever the Messiah.
Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
The disfigurement of the Suffering Servant means being removed from the picture, which means figure. That's what happened to Messiah ben Joseph, the Ten
Tribes which disappeared from the picture of the Land of Israel.
About the Mary of Bethany with her crush for Jesus, that's Mary Magdalene, who
ended up getting married to Jesus, if you read my thread on "The Wedding of Jesus."
The taking of sins from many through death is exactly what happened to Israel or Messiah ben Jospeh when he died so that Judah or Messiah ben David survived.
Ben