The suffering servant of isaiah 53

[tomspug]

Ben Sweetie, why do you think the 30 pieces of silver given to Judas never happened? Would it have been against Jewish law to have done this? If it did happen I still never really felt like the Jewish people were responsible for the death of Jesus. I always thought that ever thing just worked according to God's plan.
I do see it as strange that Jesus appeared to go against so much of the Jewish tradition yet say that he came not to change the law, but that it might be fulfilled. I could see where they would consider him to be a heretic.

If the Jews really were somehow eternally responsible for Jesus's death, you'd think that would have been mentioned somewhere in the New Testament. It's just not true.

 

[Ben Masada]

It also is a really obvious metaphor for the relationship between Jesus Christ and the world (which was included in Israel's covenant). Now, MAYBE everything that happened to Jesus was simply made up to parallel everything you just drew out of that passage. But I actually find that you have incredibly increased my understanding of the relationship between Messianic prophecy and Christianity.

I am indeed glad for my part in the increase of your understanding anyhow. But in
regards to the parallel between the prophecies and what happened to Jesus, it was
indeed made up by the writers of the NT who had the Tanach open before them to
plagiarize at their hearts content.

Ben

 

[AK4]

I am indeed glad for my part in the increase of your understanding anyhow. But in
regards to the parallel between the prophecies and what happened to Jesus, it was
indeed made up by the writers of the NT who had the Tanach open before them to
plagiarize at their hearts content.

Ben

Ben you are going in circles. You say that Jesus was sinless and died for the sins of Israel, but in the same breathe you deny that He is the Messiah. You say He didnt fulfill the prophecies in Isa. but then again He fulfilled what is stated above for Israel.

 

[AK4]

Ben, i will show how Jesus is the suffering servant from the foundation of the world hopefully later today if not it will be tomorrow. But will you see it? I doubt it.

As for this-- I was going to do it but whats the point. I may still do it for others to read though

 

[Ben Masada]

Ben you are going in circles. You say that Jesus was sinless and died for the sins of Israel, but in the same breathe you deny that He is the Messiah. You say He didnt fulfill the prophecies in Isa. but then again He fulfilled what is stated above for Israel.

I am not sure what you are trying to do with your saying that I "said that Jesus was sinless and died for the sins of Israel." And that "I said that he fulfilled the prophecies in Isaiah." But I am sport and I am going to assume that you must be joking. You must be confusing me with Elessar. I am Jewish, and a Jew does not speak nonsense.

Ben

 

[AK4]

I am not sure what you are trying to do with your saying that I "said that Jesus was sinless and died for the sins of Israel." And that "I said that he fulfilled the prophecies in Isaiah." But I am sport and I am going to assume that you must be joking. You must be confusing me with Elessar. I am Jewish, and a Jew does not speak nonsense.

Ben

Okay i will make more clear for you--

You say that Jesus was sinless and died for the sins of Israel, but in the same breathe you deny that He is the Messiah. You say He didnt fulfill the prophecies in Isa. but then He was sinless and fulfilled the prophecies for Israel forgiveness.

Do you see the circle/contradiction?

 

[Poisonshady313]

Okay i will make more clear for you--

You say that Jesus was sinless and died for the sins of Israel, but in the same breathe you deny that He is the Messiah. You say He didnt fulfill the prophecies in Isa. but then He was sinless and fulfilled the prophecies for Israel forgiveness.

Do you see the circle/contradiction?

When did Ben ever say that Jesus was sinless and died for the sins of Israel?

 

[Ben Masada]

As for this-- I was going to do it but whats the point. I may still do it for others to read though

No, don't change your mind! You promised to show me that Jesus is the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53. What's taking you so long? I can read too.

Ben

 

[Charity]

No, don't change your mind! You promised to show me that Jesus is the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53. What's taking you so long? I can read too.

Ben

Ben in Isaiah 42:1 Isn't this a reference to Christ as the Messiah. Referring to Him as a servant and that He in fact is Israel it it's ideal form. Israel was to be a nation of priests as the Messiah was to be the High Priest. The term "My Servant" was a term also applied to Israel.....It is through the suffering of the servant that salvation in the fullest is achieved.....

 

[Poisonshady313]

Ben in Isaiah 42:1 Isn't this a reference to Christ as the Messiah. Referring to Him as a servant and that He in fact is Israel it it's ideal form. Israel was to be a nation of priests as the Messiah was to be the High Priest. The term "My Servant" was a term also applied to Israel.....It is through the suffering of the servant that salvation in the fullest is achieved.....

:no: The Messiah was NOT to be the High Priest.

The High Priest by definition has to come from the tribe of Levi.

The Messiah by definition has to come from the tribe of Judah.

With all due respect and in the nicest way possible... your post doesn't make any sense.

 

[AK4]

When did Ben ever say that Jesus was sinless and died for the sins of Israel?

in another thread

 

[Jeremy Mason]

:no: The Messiah was NOT to be the High Priest.

The High Priest by definition has to come from the tribe of Levi.

The Messiah by definition has to come from the tribe of Judah.

With all due respect and in the nicest way possible... your post doesn't make any sense.

Jesus was made in the order of Melchizedek, a priest and king.

 

[AK4]

No, don't change your mind! You promised to show me that Jesus is the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53. What's taking you so long? I can read too.

Ben

Uhhh okay i will....Dang i will be throwing my pearls to swine...again----

Mt 7:6 -Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Mt 13:45 - Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:

Wasting my breath again

 

[gnostic]

Jesus was made in the order of Melchizedek, a priest and king.

Jesus is not even a king.

A priest? Could be. Perhaps more of prophet than a priest. And a teacher.

If I had to stick a label upon Jesus it would not be a king. Jesus would be a Saviour, which is a more likely label than a king.

 

[Charity]

:no: The Messiah was NOT to be the High Priest.

The High Priest by definition has to come from the tribe of Levi.

The Messiah by definition has to come from the tribe of Judah.

With all due respect and in the nicest way possible... your post doesn't make any sense.

In Isaiah 42:1 Are you telling me this is not referring to Christ as the Messiah, and the servant is the Messiah? I'm asking a question here, not wanting to be told I don't make any sense....Instead of downing me, enlighten me on my error. Wasn't the Messiah to be high priest that would atone for the sins of the world....I'm asking a question here.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Hebrews 7:1 (NIV)
1This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High.

Jesus was made in the order of this man because he was a King and High Priest. Jesus also comes from the Tribe of Judah.

Genesis 49:10 (NIV)
The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his.

Matthew 28:18 (NIV)
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Jesus is the High Priest and King of kings.

 

[gnostic]

From what I understand about Melchizedek, he was a real king.

As for Jesus:

18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Apart from being symbolic, the symbolic kingship is otherwise meaningless in the real world. Hence Jesus was not a king.

 

[Ben Masada]

Uhhh okay i will....Dang i will be throwing my pearls to swine...again----

Mt 7:6 -Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Mt 13:45 - Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:

Wasting my breath again

Now, tell me please, do you expect me to clap for ignorance? You have just showed me that you do not understand even your NT.

Let's take Matthew 7:6 which you quote above to charge me with being swine or dog. I pity you, do you know why?
Because you don't know what you are talking about. Matthew 7:6 is part of the Sermon of the Mount.
A Sermon that Jesus delivered to a crowd of Jews, which at the end of the Sermon were left spellbound at Jesus teaching. (Mat. 7:28)

Therefore, when Jesus said not to throw what is holy to dogs and not to toss their pearls before swine, he was speaking to crowds of Jews.
So, dogs and swine in the mind of Jesus were the Gentiles, not the Jews. Are you reversing the roles here when as a Gentile you refer to a Jew as dog or swine?
That's not what Jesus meant.


Do you wanna hear something else from Jesus about Gentiles? When a Gentile woman came to him and begged of him to cure her daughter,
Jesus answered and said that it was not fair to take from the food of the children (Jews) and throw it unto the dogs. (Gentiles) That's in Matthew 15:26,27.


Do you want more? Every time that Jesus sent his disciples in a mission about the Kingdom of God and bring cures to the diseases of the people,
he would warn them not to visit Gentiles and not even enter a Samaritan town. That's also in Matthew 10:6,7. I think that's enough so that next time you think to charge a Jew with being dog or swine, you will think that Jesus' aversion was not against Jews but Gentiles.


Ben

 

[Jeremy Mason]

From what I understand about Melchizedek, he was a real king.

As for Jesus:



Apart from being symbolic, the symbolic kingship is otherwise meaningless in the real world. Hence Jesus was not a king.

I see your point, but in the Christian POV, he is still King. I don't respect GW and didn't vote for him. Nevertheless, he is my president whether I say so or not.

 

[Poisonshady313]

In Isaiah 42:1 Are you telling me this is not referring to Christ as the Messiah, and the servant is the Messiah?

Isaiah 42:1 is talking about the Messiah... but it is not talking about Jesus.

Footnote to Isaiah 42:2-3

He will be accepted by all and will have no need to proclaim his judgments loudly or demonstrate his power.

Most Christians use as a proof that Jesus was the messiah the fact that people rejected him. This could not be if Isaiah 42 had anything to do with it.

Wasn't the Messiah to be high priest that would atone for the sins of the world....I'm asking a question here.

:no: The Messiah was NOT to be the High Priest.

The High Priest by definition has to come from the tribe of Levi.

The Messiah by definition has to come from the tribe of Judah.

They could not be the same person.