The Tao and Occult

[EtuMalku]

Despite the sticky overview of "Taoism is a tradition that has shaped Chinese life for more than 2,000 years." the founder Lao Tsu was born somewhere between the 4th & 6th Century, making it very old.

That aside, I have been interested in Taoism since I was around 10 years of age ( I am now 50), and was wondering when did all of these occult & religious aspects get attached to a philosophy that only taught the balance of Yin Yang?

Now, I see Taoism aligned with astrology, alchemy, gods, spirits, demons, magick etc etc.

*Just an observation of my possible un-observation

 

[WayFarer]

EtuMalku.
If I may, it is generally accepted that Lao Tsu lived between the 6th and 3rd centuries BCE.
As far as the association of various religious aspects of the version of Taoism as it is thought of today... well that happened almost immediately. The Tao Te Ching does not preclude the existence of the divine or the supernatural. The Tao Te Ching shows the apparent Will of the Creator (Who ever that may be as it does not directly address that) for the Creation through a philosophy that finds examples in Nature, the inanimate, and a kind of home-spun wisdom. Of course this is a far over simplified explication of the wisdom and truth of the Tao Te Ching. People took the Tao Te Ching and attached their understandings of the spiritual realm(s) and the beginnings of what would become the modern version of Taoism were planted. Of course the Tao is not effected by this and true Taoism tends to be a bit more embraced outside the culture from which it sprang.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[EtuMalku]

This is interesting, no where in the Tao Te Ching or writings of Chuang Tze do I find reference to anything remotely occult. Perhaps I am not looking hard enough?

 

[WayFarer]

No, not at all. While it is not mentioned that does not preclude its existence.
It (Tao Te Ching) is at least mystical in its descriptions of the Tao. A reasonable description of the occult through it's study is:
Occultism is the study of occult or hidden wisdom. To the occultist it is the study of "Truth", a deeper truth that exists beneath the surface: 'The truth is always hidden in plain sight'.
Very like the Tao.
Now as to specific gods/magick/spirits etc they were quickly bolted on to expand the opportunity for participation on the part of the follower and (the Tao) was absorbed by other preexisting spiritual practices.

 

[EtuMalku]

Thank you WayFarer, I'm seeing all of this as I look it up online.

Can I ask some of you your opinions on this?

 

[WayFarer]

EtuMalku,
Certainly. For what they are worth I am happy to give them away.
Seriously though, I would enjoy discussing it further.

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

The Tao Te Ching does not preclude the existence of the divine or the supernatural.

No, but the absence of these things is highly significant.

In the TTC the emphasis is placed on a way of perceiving and relating to the world. That is what is given central importance. Occult traditions (as they are actually practiced) always have divinity and the supernatural playing a role of central importance.

Taoist philosophy and occultism can weave together but they can also be easily distinguished from each other as separate strands.

 

[Master Vigil]

It is also important to note that the Chinese philosophy of TAO precludes the Tao Te Ching. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the I Ching, and the Tao Jiao (religious) practices also precluded the Tao Te Ching. Lao Tzu (or whomever wrote it) was writing a contrast to that thought.

 

[EtuMalku]

It is also important to note that the Chinese philosophy of TAO precludes the Tao Te Ching. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the I Ching, and the Tao Jiao (religious) practices also precluded the Tao Te Ching. Lao Tzu (or whomever wrote it) was writing a contrast to that thought.

This is interesting stuff MV, can you point me to a link or anything, a book? Thanks

 

[Ben Dhyan]

This is interesting stuff MV, can you point me to a link or anything, a book? Thanks

Hi EtuMalku, apparently the Taoist philosophy goes back to the Yellow Emperor period and so predates Lao Tzu by about 2,000 years, here is an excerpt from article on Taoism and Confucianism.

Taoism and Confucianism

Philosophically, for Taoism, the ideal life is one that is lived in harmony with the way of this shifting nature. Historically, the origin of Taoist philosophy is unclear, but it is said to have started with the Yellow Emperor allegedly c.a. 2697-2597 B.C.E.

He is thought to have studied with an ancient sage who taught him about meditation, health, and military classics. The scriptural basis for Taoism is found in the Tao-te Ching which means, The Classic of the Way and the
Power.

 

[Master Vigil]

Oddly enough I am unable to edit my post. But I meant to say "predates", not "precludes".

 

[EtuMalku]

Hi EtuMalku, apparently the Taoist philosophy goes back to the Yellow Emperor period and so predates Lao Tzu by about 2,000 years, here is an excerpt from article on Taoism and Confucianism.

Taoism and Confucianism

Excellent thanks!
I found that Lao Tzu is predated by Huangdi and Huangdi is still even predated by the originator of Taoism Fu Hsi !
http://www.thegreattao.com/html/introfounderyelemp.html

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

Despite the sticky overview of "Taoism is a tradition that has shaped Chinese life for more than 2,000 years." the founder Lao Tsu was born somewhere between the 4th & 6th Century, making it very old.

That aside, I have been interested in Taoism since I was around 10 years of age ( I am now 50), and was wondering when did all of these occult & religious aspects get attached to a philosophy that only taught the balance of Yin Yang?

Now, I see Taoism aligned with astrology, alchemy, gods, spirits, demons, magick etc etc.

*Just an observation of my possible un-observation

The eternal Tao cannot be separated from anything. Discrepancies that you see are that of your own making...and thus mine as well. Even the Tao Te Ching is a brutal misrepresentation. The Tao that can be spoken of is not the true Tao.

 

[PureX]

It is part of the 'tao of man' to be superstitious. Thus, superstitions were not discouraged. Nor were they encouraged. However, there was even from the beginning a desire to live in 'alignment' with he tao. This was originally, I think, the intention of the use of the I-Ching. However, it is part of the tao of mankind to be superstitious, and so the I-Ching became an oracle, as much as a method of finding alignment with the tao. This all occurred a very long time ago. Way before Confucious or Lao Tsu.

 

[zenzero]

Friends,

The Tao that can be spoken of is not the true Tao.

Someone said:*What is spoken, becomes untrue that very moment.*
The only real transmission happens in silence.
It is happening all the time even when we are not conscious of its happening BUT the journey begins when one becomes conscious of IT.

Love & rgds

 

[PureX]

The truth simply is. Thus I have just spoiled it. *smile*

 

[Troublemane]

I think Crowley referred to the Taoist path as the "yellow school", in his work 'Magick Without Tears'. Calling it an alternative to both LHP and RHP systems. This was because it emphasized the practical wisdom of just being-doing, and not assigning any real significance to what is doing or being. He loved the Tao-te-Ching sooooo much he felt he had to go write his own little book, which became Liber AL vel Legis. However, that thing is not nearly so well written, or inspirational, IMO. :angel2:

 

[Troublemane]

Come to think of it, The I-Ching also represents an older representation of the same philosophy, predating the Tao te Ching. I know Crowley tried to incorporate it into his G.D. inspired Qabalistic system, plus there are a bunch of Taoist Alchemical texts Ive seen which are filled with Taoist Occultism. But yeah, I think the I-Ching is the best representation of an all-inclusive yet practical magical-oracular system if there ever was one. :angel2:

 

[Master Vigil]

I think Aleister Crowley's translation of the Tao Te Ching is the worst out there. I don't believe he understood it very well. But that's just my opinion.

 

[zenzero]

Friends,

Though have read Tao Te Ching never looked at who the translator was as the idea is to understand in the manner that personally can .
A writer is just a medium and any medium perceives or understand things as per his own make up and so it is said: *Truth once spoken is falsified*, a bias creeps in, bound to be.
that can be understood from the first stanza of Tao Te Ching:
The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.

Please note the last two lines:
Naming is the origin of all particular things.

It means that once someone uses words he does so by using his mind by thinking and as soon as thoughts creep in we are creating a bias as duality creeps in that very moment.

The idea is that we need to grow in understanding, in awareness in consciousness.
Love & rgds