Audie
Veteran Member
"Were". Were one of them.
But I cannot see any connection to the post
to which you responded.
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The Ten Commandments movie
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
"Were". Were one of them.
But I cannot see any connection to the post
to which you responded.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
This has nothing to do with my post, but it does indicate that you live in fear, as most fundamentalists do. Are you willing to test your beliefs? We are not talking about testing God, that is not the same thing. God may not be whom you believe him to be.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Me either. Most Christians reinterpret Isaiah since predictions about events that were to occur soon (within his lifetime) do not do their beliefs any good.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah became King in 1863, when He declared His mission to His followers in the Garden of Ridvan.
Declaration of Baha'u'llah in the Ridvan Garden in 1863
Baha’is believe that we moved into the last days in 1844, with the coming of the Bab, who was the Gate by which Baha’u’llah entered, and who came to announce the coming of Baha’u’llah.
We believe that the Kingdom of God on earth is in the process of being established, but it will be established by humans, not by God or any supernatural forces, so it will take a long time. Baha’is do not believe that God or angels are going to remove the wicked from the earth, but rather over time humans will change as the result of the Revelation of Bahaullah, and in the future evil will be eliminated thereby.
God is the Ancient King. All the Messengers of God are Messengers of that ideal King, that unchangeable Essence we call God. As such, Jesus was the King for the age in which He appeared but Jesus was not the King for all time. Baha’u’llah was appointed by God as the designated King of the names and attributes of God for this age, as He said when He presented His Tablets to the reigning kings of the earth.
As I said on the other thread, it is God's Kingdom. Jesus was the King for the age in which He appeared but Jesus was never designated as the King for all time. Baha’is believe that the crown was handed over to Baha’u’llah in 1863, so He is the King for this age.
capumetu
Active Member
It is rather difficult to follow conversations on this site. Perhaps if they posted the last two conversations rather than one.
capumetu
Active Member
Sure, put it to the test, what would you like to know.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
To properly test an idea one must devise a test when one's beliefs or idea to be wrong. That is what is done with the scientific method. Having a mere explanation for an event is not good enough for the sciences. One must say have a reasonable statement of what would happen if one was wrong. For example in the case of Newtonian gravity if we observed items falling at different rates in a vacuum the theory would be shown to be wrong. At one point it was actually believed that heavier or larger objects fell faster. That was not the case when timed. And of course it would be needed to tested in a vacuum since we air resistance is another factor
Now you have an basic idea. State your belief, state how you would test it. And remember, there needs to be a possibility of failure based on the merits of your idea, not the merits of another, for your idea to be properly tested. Creationists sometimes try to "test creationism" by relying on strawman versions of evolution. For example a dog giving birth to a cat. Such an event would refute evolution faster than it would refute creationism since there is no "change of kind" in evolution. Tell the people here your beliefs and they may be able to help you design a test, but ultimately it has to be your test.
capumetu
Active Member
The Bible is the guideline for God's people sir. We are to be judged on that. If you want to put our faith to the test, measure it to the standards set in the Bible. One cannot run from that, as everything is point blank in writing.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
i am not talking about putting faith in general to the test. I am talking about putting specific interpretations of your book of myths to the test. There are countless different interpretations of the Bible. You appear to be making the mistake of assuming that your version is the only correct one.
capumetu
Active Member
If you offer a different interpretation, I will be glad to address it. If you consider the Bible a book of myths, we have nothing to discuss
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
It is not only a book of myths, but one cannot honestly argue that it is all literally true.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Christians will never understand what is so simple and logical. As you said, there are countless different interpretations of the Bible, yet Christians assume that their interpretation is the only correct one and the other interpretations are incorrect. There can only be one explanation for this, it is called ego.
I have been doing some research in order to respond to a post that capumetu wrote on another thread and I stumbled upon this website. Given you are a rational person I thought you would appreciate it. It is worthy of a new thread but I don't have time for that right now, maybe later.
What are the odds that the Jehovah’s Witnesses are right?
If we closely examine the objective data, the odds really don’t look good at all for Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Even if we make the colossal assumption that God exists and that He uses the bible as a means of communication with mankind, the Jehovah’s Witnesses have precious little in the way of sufficient evidence.
Let’s consider some of the evidence they present.
They claim that only Jehovah’s Witnesses teach what the bible says. They will then list certain doctrines they believe back up this claim, such as:-
God is not a trinity
Humans don’t have an immortal soul
Humans were to live forever on earth
Only Jehovah’s Witnesses preach God’s kingdom worldwide
The bible translates itself
Etc…
To back up these claims, Jehovah’s Witnesses will cherry-pick or highlight certain specific biblical passages. According to them, their beliefs are all backed up by the bible and they claim that only their religion teaches what the bible says. This gives them full confidence that their religion is right and they forge ahead with the self-assured conviction that they are being used by and approved by God, who is revealing the truth of the bible to them gradually.
The biggest problem with all of these grandiose claims is the fact that their evidence is a succession of assumptions based on mere human opinion. All the evidence they use is based on the subjective deductions of unguided, uninspired men.
For a start, the way they read and translate the bible is based on the assumption that it is to be taken literally. They then assume that certain parts of the bible are to be emphasised over other portions. From that weak foundation they construct their doctrines, all of them based on subjective human deduction, and as a result, Jehovah’s Witnesses make the bold proclamation that only they have the truth of the bible.
The problem with this methodology is that the evidence is unfalsifiable. Alternative religions will also claim they have the truth about the bible, but their conclusions contradict those of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. This is because they have a completely different set of assumptions that they construct their belief system on. There are other religions that don’t believe that the bible is the authority on what is true. Instead, they believe that God reveals His truth to his subjects using the Holy Spirit. They claim that the bible is there as a guide, and the literal translation of the bible is not necessary because God speaks to them directly.
However, the structure of these other religions is also based on human opinion and their beliefs are equally as unfalsifiable.
Unfalsifiable assertions, by their very nature, cannot be proved true or false. Therefore, it would be irrational to consider unfalsifiable claims as solid evidence. This is where the methodology of the Jehovah’s Witnesses breaks down. They have extremely low standards of evidence.
However, there are factors in the belief system of the Jehovah’s Witnesses that are verifiable and from these we can assess the validity of the claim that they have the correct understanding of the bible.
The bible is prophetic and prophesies can be tested objectively to ascertain whether they are true or not because they are falsifiable.
If the Jehovah’s Witnesses had a true understanding of scripture, and if they were indeed God’s organisation, the evidence would suggest that they would have an educated grasp and understanding of what they bible says regarding prophetic predictions. One would expect to find a succession of prophesies that uphold the teachings of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. If their interpretation of the bible is correct, it would be reasonable to conclude that this would be true with regard to all aspects of the bible, including the prophetic elements.
So what does the evidence show?
Quite frankly, the evidence is completely against them. Every verifiable prophesy or prophetic speculation made by the Watchtower has failed. All attempts made by Jehovah’s Witnesses regarding the understanding of bible prophesy have failed. Their rendition of prophetic accounts of the bible have proved false time and time again.
Even though they use the same methodology to understand the prophetic biblical passages that they utilise for their doctrines and teachings, accuracy with regards to the prophetic aspect of the bible has consistently eluded them. They have no better understanding of the bible when it comes to prophesy than any other religion which promotes a different interpretation of the bible.
This means that the only part of the Jehovah’s Witnesses belief system that can truly be tested, ultimately proves that they are wrong… in spectacular fashion. A 100% failure rate is about as conclusive as it gets.
Their defence against this failure to understand the prophetic aspect of the bible is to deny they are prophets and also to make the excuse that they are imperfect and prone to making errors in their understanding.
However, this defence works against them. If they are not prophets then how do they know that their unfalsifiable doctrines are true? How can they know that their approach to the bible is correct, if their imperfect opinions result in erroneous bible understanding?
The ‘imperfect man’ argument might account for a small amount of inaccuracy in prophetic interpretation. But in practice it would seem that human imperfection completely overrides God’s efforts to convey His prophetic pronouncements. The ramification of this are huge.
If we were to adopt this excuse, sinful mankind would be excused from not heeding Jehovah’s warnings of imminent destruction, owing to the incompetent manner in which He communicates with humans. It would mean that God’s chosen people preach a nebulous, inaccurate, erroneous and contradictory message in the time period just before God is apparently about to take action to destroy anyone who doesn’t heed His warnings. Such a god would be wholly immoral… to be so utterly reckless as to execute people when the message from His chosen servants was so vague and inconsistent as well as completely inaccurate and false. However, I digress…
In conclusion, it’s easy to make the claim that your beliefs are based on the bible when there is no sure way to prove this one way or the other, apart from subjective opinion. However, if every verifiable prophetic interpretation and speculation of a religion proves to be false, which is the case with the Jehovah’s Witnesses, any other evidence used to back up unfalsifiable claims should be seriously called into question.
This leaves Jehovah’s Witnesses with no valid reason to believe they are correct, even if we make the assumption that the bible is true.
When it comes to the testable, objective and falsifiable aspects of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ beliefs, they are provably wrong. Therefore, the odds are completely against them when it comes to the rest of their dogma, considering that they use exactly the same methodology for interpreting doctrine from the bible as they do for prophesy.
What are the odds that the Jehovah’s Witnesses are right? - Quora
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Let's get this back to the movie. Did you know that the movie, and most believers in the Abrahamic religions get the Ten Commandments wrong?Christians will never understand what is so simple and logical. As you said, there are countless different interpretations of the Bible, yet Christians assume that their interpretation is the only correct one and the other interpretations are incorrect. There can only be one explanation for this, it is called ego.
I have been doing some research in order to respond to a post that capumetu wrote on another thread and I stumbled upon this website. Given you are a rational person I thought you would appreciate it. It is worthy of a new thread but I don't have time for that right now, maybe later.
What are the odds that the Jehovah’s Witnesses are right?
If we closely examine the objective data, the odds really don’t look good at all for Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Even if we make the colossal assumption that God exists and that He uses the bible as a means of communication with mankind, the Jehovah’s Witnesses have precious little in the way of sufficient evidence.
Let’s consider some of the evidence they present.
They claim that only Jehovah’s Witnesses teach what the bible says. They will then list certain doctrines they believe back up this claim, such as:-
God is not a trinity
Humans don’t have an immortal soul
Humans were to live forever on earth
Only Jehovah’s Witnesses preach God’s kingdom worldwide
The bible translates itself
Etc…
To back up these claims, Jehovah’s Witnesses will cherry-pick or highlight certain specific biblical passages. According to them, their beliefs are all backed up by the bible and they claim that only their religion teaches what the bible says. This gives them full confidence that their religion is right and they forge ahead with the self-assured conviction that they are being used by and approved by God, who is revealing the truth of the bible to them gradually.
The biggest problem with all of these grandiose claims is the fact that their evidence is a succession of assumptions based on mere human opinion. All the evidence they use is based on the subjective deductions of unguided, uninspired men.
For a start, the way they read and translate the bible is based on the assumption that it is to be taken literally. They then assume that certain parts of the bible are to be emphasised over other portions. From that weak foundation they construct their doctrines, all of them based on subjective human deduction, and as a result, Jehovah’s Witnesses make the bold proclamation that only they have the truth of the bible.
The problem with this methodology is that the evidence is unfalsifiable. Alternative religions will also claim they have the truth about the bible, but their conclusions contradict those of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. This is because they have a completely different set of assumptions that they construct their belief system on. There are other religions that don’t believe that the bible is the authority on what is true. Instead, they believe that God reveals His truth to his subjects using the Holy Spirit. They claim that the bible is there as a guide, and the literal translation of the bible is not necessary because God speaks to them directly.
However, the structure of these other religions is also based on human opinion and their beliefs are equally as unfalsifiable.
Unfalsifiable assertions, by their very nature, cannot be proved true or false. Therefore, it would be irrational to consider unfalsifiable claims as solid evidence. This is where the methodology of the Jehovah’s Witnesses breaks down. They have extremely low standards of evidence.
However, there are factors in the belief system of the Jehovah’s Witnesses that are verifiable and from these we can assess the validity of the claim that they have the correct understanding of the bible.
The bible is prophetic and prophesies can be tested objectively to ascertain whether they are true or not because they are falsifiable.
If the Jehovah’s Witnesses had a true understanding of scripture, and if they were indeed God’s organisation, the evidence would suggest that they would have an educated grasp and understanding of what they bible says regarding prophetic predictions. One would expect to find a succession of prophesies that uphold the teachings of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. If their interpretation of the bible is correct, it would be reasonable to conclude that this would be true with regard to all aspects of the bible, including the prophetic elements.
So what does the evidence show?
Quite frankly, the evidence is completely against them. Every verifiable prophesy or prophetic speculation made by the Watchtower has failed. All attempts made by Jehovah’s Witnesses regarding the understanding of bible prophesy have failed. Their rendition of prophetic accounts of the bible have proved false time and time again.
Even though they use the same methodology to understand the prophetic biblical passages that they utilise for their doctrines and teachings, accuracy with regards to the prophetic aspect of the bible has consistently eluded them. They have no better understanding of the bible when it comes to prophesy than any other religion which promotes a different interpretation of the bible.
This means that the only part of the Jehovah’s Witnesses belief system that can truly be tested, ultimately proves that they are wrong… in spectacular fashion. A 100% failure rate is about as conclusive as it gets.
Their defence against this failure to understand the prophetic aspect of the bible is to deny they are prophets and also to make the excuse that they are imperfect and prone to making errors in their understanding.
However, this defence works against them. If they are not prophets then how do they know that their unfalsifiable doctrines are true? How can they know that their approach to the bible is correct, if their imperfect opinions result in erroneous bible understanding?
The ‘imperfect man’ argument might account for a small amount of inaccuracy in prophetic interpretation. But in practice it would seem that human imperfection completely overrides God’s efforts to convey His prophetic pronouncements. The ramification of this are huge.
If we were to adopt this excuse, sinful mankind would be excused from not heeding Jehovah’s warnings of imminent destruction, owing to the incompetent manner in which He communicates with humans. It would mean that God’s chosen people preach a nebulous, inaccurate, erroneous and contradictory message in the time period just before God is apparently about to take action to destroy anyone who doesn’t heed His warnings. Such a god would be wholly immoral… to be so utterly reckless as to execute people when the message from His chosen servants was so vague and inconsistent as well as completely inaccurate and false. However, I digress…
In conclusion, it’s easy to make the claim that your beliefs are based on the bible when there is no sure way to prove this one way or the other, apart from subjective opinion. However, if every verifiable prophetic interpretation and speculation of a religion proves to be false, which is the case with the Jehovah’s Witnesses, any other evidence used to back up unfalsifiable claims should be seriously called into question.
This leaves Jehovah’s Witnesses with no valid reason to believe they are correct, even if we make the assumption that the bible is true.
When it comes to the testable, objective and falsifiable aspects of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ beliefs, they are provably wrong. Therefore, the odds are completely against them when it comes to the rest of their dogma, considering that they use exactly the same methodology for interpreting doctrine from the bible as they do for prophesy.
What are the odds that the Jehovah’s Witnesses are right? - Quora
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Do you mean those believers misunderstand the Ten Commandments as written thus getting them wrong or do you mean they misunderstand the movie?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
I mean that they get the Ten Commandments wrong. I will explain, but first we need to define the Ten Commandments. There are three standards that I use. They must have been given by God, they must be carved in stone. And the Bible must call them the Ten Commandments in the text of the Bible.
Are these three standards reasonable?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I agree that they must be given by God, but I do not agree they must have been carved in stone or that they had to be called the Ten Commandments in the text of the Bible in order to actually be God's commandments. I am sure you have a definite edge on me because I am not familiar with the Old Testament.
Since the carved in stone is just part of a story, it is not necessarily literally true that they were carved in stone.
We Never Know
No Slack
-They must have been given by God.
They could have been, who knows. Those that believe in God believe it. Those who don't believe in God don't. Neither can be proven or disproven.
-They must be carved in stone.
Again they could have been, who knows. Those that believe in God believe it. Those who don't believe in God don't. Neither can be proven or disproven. (Carved, etched, burnt, chiseled, etc, its all similarly the same.)
-The Bible must call them the Ten Commandments in the text of the Bible.
The bible mentions them by word only twice...
Deuteronomy 4:13
English Standard Version
13 And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments,[a] and he wrote them on two tablets of stone.
Exodus 34:28
English Standard Version
28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
You are no fun
. This works with literalists. It drives them nuts.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Correct, but Deuteronomy only mentions them there. It does not list the ten in that passage.
The list in Exodus 34 are the Ten Commandments I was referring to and by rights the one that zealots want to put in front of courthouses should be using.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, I am not a lot of fun. I am all work and no play.You are no fun
and I am not a literalist.