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The thief on the cross: The rule or the exception?

james2ko

james2ko

Well-Known Member
waitasec said:
thank you for clarifying...yes, 4 different accounts for 4 different audiences... in one account jesus is scared. in another he knows what's going to happen...i find it funny
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What's really funny is how you tell others to stop trolling when you frequently practice it yourself.

waitasec said:
that this argument goes into a direction you are not comfortable it's all of a sudden off topic
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Please...I love nothing more than refuting your fallacious arguments..BTW..You just admitted to trolling ---so STOP TROLLING!!
 
waitasec

waitasec

Veteran Member
james2ko said:
What's really funny is how you tell others to stop trolling when you frequently practice it yourself.


Please...I love nothing more than refuting your fallacious arguments..BTW..You just admitted to trolling ---so STOP TROLLING!!
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i see you've changed the subject again...

you're no fun.
:no:
 
E

e2ekiel

Member
Strength & Honor said:
Whenever the topic of baptism is mentioned as a requirement for salvation, there is almost always one objection: the thief on the cross. The basic idea of this objection is that if this thief was saved and went to Paradise without being baptized, then so can anyone else.

My only problem with this objection is that it is an isolated incident. It is a scenario wherein Jesus specifically nominates someone for entry into paradise. Since Jesus has the authority to grant such a favor, I believe that the man truly went to Paradise. However, this happens no other place in scripture (that I'm aware of), nor does it happen today.

My question is: Does the "thief on the cross" scenario represent the rule (i.e. baptism is not required) or the exception to the rule (baptism is required)?
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Baptism is a requirement for salvation, the nuance is, baptism of the spirit. Which is recognising that you are sinful and helpless and relying on Jesus are your Lord and Saviour. Which if you read the account of the crucifixion carefully the criminal/thief does confess to Jesus. Only Jesus knows the criminal/thief's mind and if he was truly repentant, and going by what Jesus says we can be sure that the criminal/thief was truly repentant because Jesus declares him righteous before God.
 
javajo

javajo

Well-Known Member
e2ekiel said:
Baptism is a requirement for salvation, the nuance is, baptism of the spirit. Which is recognising that you are sinful and helpless and relying on Jesus are your Lord and Saviour. Which if you read the account of the crucifixion carefully the criminal/thief does confess to Jesus. Only Jesus knows the criminal/thief's mind and if he was truly repentant, and going by what Jesus says we can be sure that the criminal/thief was truly repentant because Jesus declares him righteous before God.
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Baptism of the Holy Spirit, that's right: For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13 That's the one baptism all believers were baptized in when they first believed.
 
waitasec

waitasec

Veteran Member
i find there are a lot of exceptions throughout the gospels
there is no rule....


not a good sign if making a case for a sustaining standard.
 
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Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
So once again....
Did the thief go to heaven...allowed by baptism?

Or was it that conversation he had, with the Carpenter?
 
javajo

javajo

Well-Known Member
Thief said:
And the rest of the world will be forsaken?
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It depends on how you view this passage:

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Acts 10:34-35

Sounds like even if one has never heard of Christ, if they believe in God and respect him and do what is right, he accepts them. I believe he accepts them because Jesus died for them and they called upon God to forgive them and did what is right. But all have sinned, so only those who call on God will be pardoned, and most are in sin and darkness, which is why we are to preach the Gospel to all nations, which is far better.
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
javajo said:
It depends on how you view this passage:

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Acts 10:34-35

Sounds like even if one has never heard of Christ, if they believe in God and respect him and do what is right, he accepts them. I believe he accepts them because Jesus died for them and they called upon God to forgive them and did what is right. But all have sinned, so only those who call on God will be pardoned, and most are in sin and darkness, which is why we are to preach the Gospel to all nations, which is far better.
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Proselytizing required?

Jesus is not the pivot point.
 
H

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Thief said:
Cute....

So was the thief an exception, and the standard is different for everyone else?
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It's a bit complicated. Still I try to explain it in a simple way.

People will be judged on the Judgment Day by God's Law. To the Jews Moses will be the accuser while to the Gentile perhaps Satan will be an accuser.

Jesus sacrifice brought us a New Covenant and as a result Christians no longer subject to the judgment of Law. We however will be judged by Jesus Christ Himself. If He said that you are ok, then you'll be in Heaven. If however He said, "Depart from me, I don't know you", you are done. If He said that "Go away evil doer, not those with O Lord O Lord in the mouth only shall be saved", you are done.

He judges hearts to qualify your faith. If your faith is qualified in accordance what's specified in the Covenant, you'll be saved. Jesus Christ is the final judge of this.
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Hawkins said:
It's a bit complicated. Still I try to explain it in a simple way.
People will be judged on the Judgment Day by God's Law. To the Jews Moses will be the accuser while to the Gentile perhaps Satan will be an accuser.
Jesus sacrifice brought us a New Covenant and as a result Christians no longer subject to the judgment of Law. We however will be judged by Jesus Christ Himself. If He said that you are ok, then you'll be in Heaven. If however He said, "Depart from me, I don't know you", you are done. If He said that "Go away evil doer, not those with O Lord O Lord in the mouth only shall be saved", you are done.
He judges hearts to qualify your faith. If your faith is qualified in accordance what's specified in the Covenant, you'll be saved. Jesus Christ is the final judge of this.
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True, Jesus does not judge by the mere appearance by the eyes but he see the person's heart. -Isaiah 11vs3,4.

Jesus judges his 'brothers' [Matt 25v40; 1st Cor 15v50] worthy of heaven.
Jesus judges his 'sheep' [Matt 25v31,32] as worthy or earthly life.
How the 'sheep' treat the 'brothers' is a basis for Jesus judgment.
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Hawkins said:
It's a bit complicated. Still I try to explain it in a simple way.

People will be judged on the Judgment Day by God's Law. To the Jews Moses will be the accuser while to the Gentile perhaps Satan will be an accuser.

Jesus sacrifice brought us a New Covenant and as a result Christians no longer subject to the judgment of Law. We however will be judged by Jesus Christ Himself. If He said that you are ok, then you'll be in Heaven. If however He said, "Depart from me, I don't know you", you are done. If He said that "Go away evil doer, not those with O Lord O Lord in the mouth only shall be saved", you are done.

He judges hearts to qualify your faith. If your faith is qualified in accordance what's specified in the Covenant, you'll be saved. Jesus Christ is the final judge of this.
Click to expand...

Nay to all of this.
He did say of Himself...'brother and fellow servant'.

When called upon He replied...
"Man,who made me a judge and divider over you?"
(a denial of such position)
 
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