The thief on the cross: The rule or the exception?

[URAVIP2ME]

Confusion throughout.
The kingdom is not of this world...He said so.
Flesh cannot inherit the kingdom.
You might consider that most of what you read in the bible was written by people.....who don't want to die....want this life, forever.....
can't get it through their heads....God is spirit.
The kingdom is not of this world.
Following the Carpenter was granted by the Carpenter.
You cannot undo this.

Absolutely, God's kingdom is Not of this [earthly] world.
Absolutely Flesh [physical] can Not inherit the heavenly realm. [1st Cor 15v50]
God is spirit and God resurrected Jesus back to the spirit realm in a spirit body.
[Those that reign with Jesus will also have spirit bodies. -Rev 20v6; 5vs9,10]
No Christian wants to undo following the 'Carpenter' aka Christ Jesus.
Jesus even stated his followers were Not part of the world. [Jn 17vs14-16]
Not part of the 'world of wickedness' or the wicked world.
So, the heavenly kingdom is Not part of this world's badness.
But that does not mean the heavenly kingdom will not affect earth's affairs.
The prophet Daniel likened God's kingdom to a stone. [Dan 2 vs34,34,45]
Please notice in verse 35 that God's kingdom [stone] grows or becomes a great mountain.
Not a literal mountain filling the whole earth, but as verse 44 says God's kingdom will replace [fill the place] of all earthly governmental kingdoms.
Jesus, as crowned king of God's kingdom of the heavens, will usher in Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill.
In other words, only Jesus can and will being peace to the world of righteous mankind.

 

[Thief]

Absolutely, God's kingdom is Not of this [earthly] world.
Absolutely Flesh [physical] can Not inherit the heavenly realm. [1st Cor 15v50]
God is spirit and God resurrected Jesus back to the spirit realm in a spirit body.
[Those that reign with Jesus will also have spirit bodies. -Rev 20v6; 5vs9,10]
No Christian wants to undo following the 'Carpenter' aka Christ Jesus.
Jesus even stated his followers were Not part of the world. [Jn 17vs14-16]
Not part of the 'world of wickedness' or the wicked world.
So, the heavenly kingdom is Not part of this world's badness.
But that does not mean the heavenly kingdom will not affect earth's affairs.
The prophet Daniel likened God's kingdom to a stone. [Dan 2 vs34,34,45]
Please notice in verse 35 that God's kingdom [stone] grows or becomes a great mountain.
Not a literal mountain filling the whole earth, but as verse 44 says God's kingdom will replace [fill the place] of all earthly governmental kingdoms.
Jesus, as crowned king of God's kingdom of the heavens, will usher in Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill.
In other words, only Jesus can and will being peace to the world of righteous mankind.

His handiwork ended on the cross...He said so.

He is not a king. He is 'brother and fellow servant'...He said so.

The kingdom's affect in this world?...yeah.
As you recite the Lord's Prayer....
"....Thy kingdom come....Thy will be done...."
(God's spiritual kingdom...God's will)

As the kingdom is of spirit...so are you.
As you recite the prayer, The kingdom comes down, upon your mind and heart.
It affects you....and you are still standing here in this world.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

His handiwork ended on the cross...He said so.
He is not a king. He is 'brother and fellow servant'...He said so.
The kingdom's affect in this world?...yeah.
As you recite the Lord's Prayer....
"....Thy kingdom come....Thy will be done...."
(God's spiritual kingdom...God's will)
As the kingdom is of spirit...so are you.
As you recite the prayer, The kingdom comes down, upon your mind and heart.
It affects you....and you are still standing here in this world.

What is God's will for heaven? [Thy will be done on earth as in heaven]

Please explain to us what Jesus meant at Luke 19 vs11-15.

When does Jesus hand back the kingdom according to 1st Cor 15vs24-28?

When does Daniel [2v44] take place ?

 

[Thief]

What is God's will for heaven? [Thy will be done on earth as in heaven]

Please explain to us what Jesus meant at Luke 19 vs11-15.

When does Jesus hand back the kingdom according to 1st Cor 15vs24-28?

When does Daniel [2v44] take place ?

It's all in one...
Do unto others as you will have it done unto you.

And the angels are waiting to do so....unto you...as you did unto others.

Fair enough?

 

[crystalonyx]

Whenever the topic of baptism is mentioned as a requirement for salvation, there is almost always one objection: the thief on the cross. The basic idea of this objection is that if this thief was saved and went to Paradise without being baptized, then so can anyone else.

My only problem with this objection is that it is an isolated incident. It is a scenario wherein Jesus specifically nominates someone for entry into paradise. Since Jesus has the authority to grant such a favor, I believe that the man truly went to Paradise. However, this happens no other place in scripture (that I'm aware of), nor does it happen today.

My question is: Does the "thief on the cross" scenario represent the rule (i.e. baptism is not required) or the exception to the rule (baptism is required)?

This brings up a greater set of illogic, what happened to people before the supposed Jesus came along, or for that matter, anyone that has never heard of the Jesus story, or culturally was taught a different set of stories to believe.

 

[Thief]

This brings up a greater set of illogic, what happened to people before the supposed Jesus came along, or for that matter, anyone that has never heard of the Jesus story, or culturally was taught a different set of stories to believe.

In the schools and teachings I heard....
Put Him first....or you're out of the picture.

Some people softened that belief by saying hell was conquered and all have been set free.

And even that softened approach would count the 'thief' out.
He did not live with the Carpenter 'out in front'.
He did not profess or promote belief.
He did not repent.

He did ask only...'to be remembered'....

This seems to be his only redeeming gesture.

You think that would be enough?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

This brings up a greater set of illogic, what happened to people before the supposed Jesus came along, or for that matter, anyone that has never heard of the Jesus story, or culturally was taught a different set of stories to believe.

Jesus addresses the logic of what happens to people before Jesus.

Please notice John [3v13] because Jesus logic is plain that No one has ascended up to heaven,........

That means No one after Adam that lived between the time of Genesis through Malachi, and all who died before Jesus died, did Not go to heaven.
That includes people like king David [Acts 2v34; 13v36] and also those that never heard of Jesus.

Because Jesus has the keys to unlock the grave [sheol] Rev 1v18.
That means Jesus will resurrect 'many'.- Matthew 20v28.
[resurrect to either heaven or on earth]
Resurrect in fulfillment to God's promise to Abraham that all families of the earth will be blessed and all nations of the earth will be blessed.
Blessed with curing or healing of the nations.
-Genesis 22vs17,18; Rev 22v2

Jesus taught only those committing the unforgivable sin [Matt 12v32; Hebrews 6vs4-6] will Not have a resurrection. No resurrection to either life in the heavens, nor a future resurrection on earth during Jesus messianic 1000-year reign over earth. Such as the earthly resurrection as Daniel looked forward. [Daniel 12vs2,13]

We are all born under a culture or cultural bias, and Jesus taught that in our time frame his 'sheep' would hear his voice. Meaning humble sheep-like people would want to follow Jesus upon learning about him. This would be accomplished because of a global preaching campaign as mentioned at Matthew [24v14]. Rapid Bible translation into many languages has sped up that preaching commission today.

 

[Thief]

Jesus addresses the logic of what happens to people before Jesus.

Please notice John [3v13] because Jesus logic is plain that No one has ascended up to heaven,........

That means No one after Adam that lived between the time of Genesis through Malachi, and all who died before Jesus died, did Not go to heaven.
That includes people like king David [Acts 2v34; 13v36] and also those that never heard of Jesus.

Because Jesus has the keys to unlock the grave [sheol] Rev 1v18.
That means Jesus will resurrect 'many'.- Matthew 20v28.
[resurrect to either heaven or on earth]
Resurrect in fulfillment to God's promise to Abraham that all families of the earth will be blessed and all nations of the earth will be blessed.
Blessed with curing or healing of the nations.
-Genesis 22vs17,18; Rev 22v2

Jesus taught only those committing the unforgivable sin [Matt 12v32; Hebrews 6vs4-6] will Not have a resurrection. No resurrection to either life in the heavens, nor a future resurrection on earth during Jesus messianic 1000-year reign over earth. Such as the earthly resurrection as Daniel looked forward. [Daniel 12vs2,13]

We are all born under a culture or cultural bias, and Jesus taught that in our time frame his 'sheep' would hear his voice. Meaning humble sheep-like people would want to follow Jesus upon learning about him. This would be accomplished because of a global preaching campaign as mentioned at Matthew [24v14]. Rapid Bible translation into many languages has sped up that preaching commission today.

So out of all of this....the thief didn't make it?

And if he did....he is the ONLY exception?

No Jews?...no Muslims?...no atheists?.... in heaven?
No exceptions?

 

[Muffled]

In the schools and teachings I heard....
Put Him first....or you're out of the picture.

Some people softened that belief by saying hell was conquered and all have been set free.

And even that softened approach would count the 'thief' out.
He did not live with the Carpenter 'out in front'.
He did not profess or promote belief.
He did not repent.

He did ask only...'to be remembered'....

This seems to be his only redeeming gesture.

You think that would be enough?

He confessed his sin. That is the first act of salvation to recognize that sin is a bad thing. That is in essence a repentance because it is a turning from seeing sin as a good thing.

This is essentially Christian. The thief did not seek exoneration for his sin or boast about the ggod things that he did but relied solely on Jesus to save him. He eefectively put Jesus in charge of his future.

I believe that is all anyone has to do to be saved.

That is a bit naive. The person who acknowledges God as Savior and seeks to be good, is going in the same direction as a Christian and therefore is in the same picture. It is just that a Christian is in a motorboat and the others are using oars. The Christian gets there faster and is less burdened (by a lot) getting there.

However that is only true in Jesus. For the others it remains to be seen whether they defeat evil or not.

I am not toatlly sure I know what you mean by that expression but salvation whenever it occurs is efficacious even at the end of life.

His statements reveal what he believed. He believed that sin is bad and that Jesus saves.

 

[e.r.m.]

So out of all of this....the thief didn't make it?

And if he did....he is the ONLY exception?

No Jews?...no Muslims?...no atheists?.... in heaven?
No exceptions?

Of course he did. He wouldn't go to paradise & then not make it.

 

[e.r.m.]

Not saying 'those of us' who where baptized.... as meaning all baptized ones.

But KJV 'so many of us as were baptized...'
In other words, 'all of us' that were baptized into his death.
That would mean that not everyone baptized,
but only those baptized into his death. -Mark 10v38.

The 'many' are those of Rom. 6v5 in the likeness of his death/ likeness of his resurrection [spirit resurrection no human body]

Part of that 'many' are Jesus 'brothers' of Matthew [25v40;1st Cor 15v50]

The 'old man' [former] of verse 6 impales his old former unChristian personality so as not to live anymore as serving sin or slave to sin.
The former personality done away with, not the actual person.

That could easily refer to those who were not baptized yet, or chose not to be saved (at baptism, to be clear). It does not prove your point.
I use comfortably the phrase, in contact with Jesus blood, since Colossians 2 and I think other scriptures say "sprinkled by his blood", it's Biblically accurate. But I could as easily say baptism is the moment when we are forhiven by His blood.

 

[e.r.m.]

I

Not saying 'those of us' who where baptized.... as meaning all baptized ones.

But KJV 'so many of us as were baptized...'
In other words, 'all of us' that were baptized into his death.
That would mean that not everyone baptized,
but only those baptized into his death. -Mark 10v38.

The 'many' are those of Rom. 6v5 in the likeness of his death/ likeness of his resurrection [spirit resurrection no human body]

Part of that 'many' are Jesus 'brothers' of Matthew [25v40;1st Cor 15v50]

The 'old man' [former] of verse 6 impales his old former unChristian personality so as not to live anymore as serving sin or slave to sin.
The former personality done away with, not the actual person.

Much clearer thank you.
That could easily refer to those who were not baptized yet, or chose not to be saved (at baptism, to be clear). It does not prove your point.
I use comfortably the phrase, in contact with Jesus blood, since Colossians 2 and I think other scriptures say "sprinkled by his blood", it is Biblically accurate. But I could as easily say baptism is the moment when we are forgiven by His blood. Oh, it's still water baptism.

 

[Thief]

Of course he did. He wouldn't go to paradise & then not make it.

Okay...that was half it.

But was he an exception?

 

[e.r.m.]

Okay...that was half it.

But was he an exception?

He was not an exception. Baptism had not yet been offered, the rule was not yet in effect. If he had been saved after Acts 2:38, after baptism for forgiveness of sins in Jesus's name started, then he would have been an exception. Neither the thief on the cross, nor Enoch were exceptions.

 

[Thief]

He was not an exception. Baptism had not yet been offered, the rule was not yet in effect. If he had been saved after Acts 2:38, after baptism for forgiveness of sins in Jesus's name started, then he would have been an exception. Neither the thief on the cross, nor Enoch were exceptions.%

Not an exception?....

Try seeing it from the thief's point of view.
A saving grace on his part?...of course not.
He knew it and said so.

Worthy of life in the kingdom?....he did not ask for it.
Only that he be remembered.

Baptism?
You are aware?...the Carpenter did not baptize.
His disciples did.
When He spoke of it....it was in terms of fire and spirit.

 

[e.r.m.]

Not an exception?....

Try seeing it from the thief's point of view.
A saving grace on his part?...of course not.
He knew it and said so.

Worthy of life in the kingdom?....he did not ask for it.
Only that he be remembered.

Baptism?
You are aware?...the Carpenter did not baptize.
His disciples did.
When He spoke of it....it was in terms of fire and spirit.

Zaccheus didn't ask for salvation either, nor did the adulterous woman, nor did the paralytic. The thief on the cross was not an exception in the 'not asking' sense.
Would you give up on the spirit & fire thing? Peter could not have commanded the people in Acts 2:38 to be baptized by fire. He could only instruct them to do something they COULD do. Water Baptism.

 

[Thief]

Zaccheus didn't ask for salvation either, nor did the adulterous woman, nor did the paralytic. The thief on the cross was not an exception in the 'not asking' sense.
Would you give up on the spirit & fire thing? Peter could not have commanded the people in Acts 2:38 to be baptized by fire. He could only instruct them to do something they COULD do. Water Baptism.

Nope...can't give it up....Matthew3verse11

 

[e.r.m.]

Not an exception?....

Try seeing it from the thief's point of view.
A saving grace on his part?...of course not.
He knew it and said so.

Worthy of life in the kingdom?....he did not ask for it.
Only that he be remembered.

Baptism?
You are aware?...the Carpenter did not baptize.
His disciples did.
When He spoke of it....it was in terms of fire and spirit.

Nope...can't give it up....Matthew3verse11

(NASB)Matthew 3:11
"As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Do you see any instruction for people to follow here? Wasn't Acts 2:38 an instruction?

 

[Thief]

(NASB)Matthew 3:11
"As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Do you see any instruction for people to follow here? Wasn't Acts 2:38 an instruction?

Acts was written when?...after the the execution event?

And what opportunity did the thief have?

So...if a thief can follow the Carpenter as an exception?....
or was he baptized by fire?

 

[e.r.m.]

Acts was written when?...after the the execution event?

And what opportunity did the thief have?

So...if a thief can follow the Carpenter as an exception?....
or was he baptized by fire?

Exactly, baptism in Jesus's name for forgiveness of sins wasn't offered until after the execution event. The chance the thief had was the same chance the paralytic and the sinful woman had,
(NASB)Luke 5:24
"But, so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,"--He said to the paralytic--"I say to you, get up, and pick up your stretcher and go home."

The thief on the cross was never baptized by fire.