The Thirteenth Amendment and Abortion Rights

[crossfire]

I posted these two posts on another thread, but I think this deserves a thread of its own. Please tell me if my reasoning is faulty or has merit. Thank you.

The Thirteenth Amendment of The US Constitution:

https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-13/

Thirteenth Amendment​

Section 1​

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2​

Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

---------------------------
These are the two posts from another thread regarding applying the Thirteenth Amendment to pregnant persons who do not wish to continue their pregnancy and being forced to do so being a form of slavery:


Have you considered the13th Amendment outlawing slavery and how the "badges and incidents of slavery" could be applied to pregnant women forced to carry a pregnancy to term? Do you think the 13th Amendment should be given over to the States? The Courts gave that to Congress to decide.

Court defined "badges and incidents of slavery"

https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt13-S1-2/ALDE_00013210/

Type of restriction or action	Explanation
Compulsory service	Forced labor for the benefit of another person
Restrictions on movement	Limitations on where a person can go
Property and contract restrictions	Inability to own property or enter into contracts
Court and testimony restrictions	Inability to have standing in court or testify against a white person
Racial discrimination	Racial discrimination by private housing developers and private schools

The Compulsory Service badge and incident would apply to abortion restrictions. The Racial Discrimination badge and incidents (in this case discrimination against pregnant persons) would apply to Hospital Emergency Rooms turning away pregnant persons in medical distress. The Restriction on Movement badge and incidents would apply to states or municipalites that try to pass laws against pregnant persons traveling to get an abortion.

 

[Revoltingest]

I posted these two posts on another thread, but I think this deserves a thread of its own. Please tell me if my reasoning is faulty or has merit. Thank you.

The Thirteenth Amendment of The US Constitution:

https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-13/

Thirteenth Amendment​

Section 1​

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2​

Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

---------------------------
These are the two posts from another thread regarding applying the Thirteenth Amendment to pregnant persons who do not wish to continue their pregnancy and being forced to do so being a form of slavery:


Have you considered the13th Amendment outlawing slavery and how the "badges and incidents of slavery" could be applied to pregnant women forced to carry a pregnancy to term? Do you think the 13th Amendment should be given over to the States? The Courts gave that to Congress to decide.

Court defined "badges and incidents of slavery"

https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt13-S1-2/ALDE_00013210/

Type of restriction or action	Explanation
Compulsory service	Forced labor for the benefit of another person
Restrictions on movement	Limitations on where a person can go
Property and contract restrictions	Inability to own property or enter into contracts
Court and testimony restrictions	Inability to have standing in court or testify against a white person
Racial discrimination	Racial discrimination by private housing developers and private schools

The Compulsory Service badge and incident would apply to abortion restrictions. The Racial Discrimination badge and incidents (in this case discrimination against pregnant persons) would apply to Hospital Emergency Rooms turning away pregnant persons in medical distress. The Restriction on Movement badge and incidents would apply to states or municipalites that try to pass laws against pregnant persons traveling to get an abortion.

The servitude aspect has long been a libertarian
objection to prohibiting abortion. A pro-life
Christian I once knew said he found this a very
compelling argument for abortion rights.

 

[crossfire]

The servitude aspect has long been a libertarian
objection to prohibiting abortion. A pro-life
Christian I once knew said he found this a very
compelling argument for abortion rights.

Thank you.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

I posted these two posts on another thread, but I think this deserves a thread of its own. Please tell me if my reasoning is faulty or has merit. Thank you.

The Thirteenth Amendment of The US Constitution:

https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-13/

Thirteenth Amendment​

Section 1​

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2​

Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

---------------------------
These are the two posts from another thread regarding applying the Thirteenth Amendment to pregnant persons who do not wish to continue their pregnancy and being forced to do so being a form of slavery:


Have you considered the13th Amendment outlawing slavery and how the "badges and incidents of slavery" could be applied to pregnant women forced to carry a pregnancy to term? Do you think the 13th Amendment should be given over to the States? The Courts gave that to Congress to decide.

Court defined "badges and incidents of slavery"

https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt13-S1-2/ALDE_00013210/

Type of restriction or action	Explanation
Compulsory service	Forced labor for the benefit of another person
Restrictions on movement	Limitations on where a person can go
Property and contract restrictions	Inability to own property or enter into contracts
Court and testimony restrictions	Inability to have standing in court or testify against a white person
Racial discrimination	Racial discrimination by private housing developers and private schools

The Compulsory Service badge and incident would apply to abortion restrictions. The Racial Discrimination badge and incidents (in this case discrimination against pregnant persons) would apply to Hospital Emergency Rooms turning away pregnant persons in medical distress. The Restriction on Movement badge and incidents would apply to states or municipalites that try to pass laws against pregnant persons traveling to get an abortion.

No woman in the US today is forced to have a baby. Abortion is legal in the US.

Also, If you go down this road then this will be an argument for abortion up to birth.

 

[Revoltingest]

No woman in the US today is forced to have a baby. Abortion is legal in the US.

Not everywhere.
But this could change after 2024.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I posted these two posts on another thread, but I think this deserves a thread of its own. Please tell me if my reasoning is faulty or has merit. Thank you.

The Thirteenth Amendment of The US Constitution:

https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-13/

Thirteenth Amendment​

Section 1​

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2​

Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

---------------------------
These are the two posts from another thread regarding applying the Thirteenth Amendment to pregnant persons who do not wish to continue their pregnancy and being forced to do so being a form of slavery:


Have you considered the13th Amendment outlawing slavery and how the "badges and incidents of slavery" could be applied to pregnant women forced to carry a pregnancy to term? Do you think the 13th Amendment should be given over to the States? The Courts gave that to Congress to decide.

Court defined "badges and incidents of slavery"

https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt13-S1-2/ALDE_00013210/

Type of restriction or action	Explanation
Compulsory service	Forced labor for the benefit of another person
Restrictions on movement	Limitations on where a person can go
Property and contract restrictions	Inability to own property or enter into contracts
Court and testimony restrictions	Inability to have standing in court or testify against a white person
Racial discrimination	Racial discrimination by private housing developers and private schools

The Compulsory Service badge and incident would apply to abortion restrictions. The Racial Discrimination badge and incidents (in this case discrimination against pregnant persons) would apply to Hospital Emergency Rooms turning away pregnant persons in medical distress. The Restriction on Movement badge and incidents would apply to states or municipalites that try to pass laws against pregnant persons traveling to get an abortion.

This sounds reasonable to me, but seeing how the Supreme Court has ruled in the past that the military draft doesn't violate the 13th Amendment, I suspect there may be more to it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No woman in the US today is forced to have a baby. Abortion is legal in the US.

Pregnant women who are past the limit for a legal abortion in their state are forced to have babies.

Also, If you go down this road then this will be an argument for abortion up to birth.

... which is the ethically and morally correct position.

 

[Revoltingest]

This sounds reasonable to me, but seeing how the Supreme Court has ruled in the past that the military draft doesn't violate the 13th Amendment, I suspect there may be more to it.

Disregarding The Bill Of Rights
whenever it suits them.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Not everywhere.
But this could change after 2024.

Every woman in the US can get an abortion if they wish.

 

[Revoltingest]

Every woman in the US can get an abortion if they wish.

That statement oversimplifies the issue.
Where some live, it's illegal.
Sure, they can go to a state or country where it is,
but it's still more accurate to say it's legal some
places, & illegal in others....with no constitutional
right (currently).

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Every woman in the US can get an abortion if they wish.

Should I respond as if you mean this sincerely?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Pregnant women who are past the limit for a legal abortion in their state are forced to have babies.

A state-by-state breakdown of abortion laws 2 years after Roe was overturned

Where does abortion stand in your state since Roe v. Wade was overturned two years ago? ABC News has a state-by-state breakdown of abortion laws in the U.S.

abcnews.go.com

There are states with no limits.

... which is the ethically and morally correct position.

Ok,

 

[crossfire]

Badge and Incidents of Slavery: Restriction of Movement:

Here is an article from The Texas Tribune regarding travel bans and Texas's efforts to reach across state lines to try to prosecute Texas residents for medical procedures illegal in Texas but legal in other states. It adds the parallel to "runaway slave" laws from prior to the Thirteenth Amendment.

Texas conservatives test how far they can extend abortion and gender-transition restrictions beyond state lines

Recent state and local legal maneuvers signal that Texas’ conservative movement could be wading into a complicated constitutional morass the country hasn’t dealt with since before the Civil War.

www.texastribune.org

AP Article regarding more from Texas:

How a Texas man is testing out-of-state abortions by asking a court to subpoena his ex-partner

A Texas man is petitioning a court for information over his former partner's alleged out-of-state abortion, setting up a first-of-its-kind legal test to the limits of statewide abortion bans.

apnews.com

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

A state-by-state breakdown of abortion laws 2 years after Roe was overturned

Where does abortion stand in your state since Roe v. Wade was overturned two years ago? ABC News has a state-by-state breakdown of abortion laws in the U.S.

abcnews.go.com

There are states with no limits.

And did you say "no woman in certain states is forced to have a baby" or did you say "no woman in the US today is forced to have a baby"?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Should I respond as if you mean this sincerely?

I do, there are more states that allow abortion than don't. Anyone can go to one of those states. 33 states allow abortion after 6 weeks. Many people travel for healthcare, why is abortion special if it is just healthcare?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Badge and Incidents of Slavery: Restriction of Movement:

Here is an article from The Texas Tribune regarding travel bans and Texas's efforts to reach across state lines to try to prosecute Texas residents for medical procedures illegal in Texas but legal in other states. It adds the parallel to "runaway slave" laws from prior to the Thirteens Amendment.

Texas conservatives test how far they can extend abortion and gender-transition restrictions beyond state lines

Recent state and local legal maneuvers signal that Texas’ conservative movement could be wading into a complicated constitutional morass the country hasn’t dealt with since before the Civil War.

www.texastribune.org

AP Article regarding more from Texas:

How a Texas man is testing out-of-state abortions by asking a court to subpoena his ex-partner

A Texas man is petitioning a court for information over his former partner's alleged out-of-state abortion, setting up a first-of-its-kind legal test to the limits of statewide abortion bans.

apnews.com

I disagree with these efforts and would vote against them. They also will not hold up in court.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

And did you say "no woman in certain states is forced to have a baby" or did you say "no woman in the US today is forced to have a baby"?

Anyone can get an abortion in the US.

 

[crossfire]

This sounds reasonable to me, but seeing how the Supreme Court has ruled in the past that the military draft doesn't violate the 13th Amendment, I suspect there may be more to it.

I also disagree with compulsary conscription. (At least they get paid for their service!)

 

[Revoltingest]

A state-by-state breakdown of abortion laws 2 years after Roe was overturned

Where does abortion stand in your state since Roe v. Wade was overturned two years ago? ABC News has a state-by-state breakdown of abortion laws in the U.S.

abcnews.go.com

There are states with no limits.

Ok,

If Trump wins, Vance has proposed surveilling
women who cross state lines in case they do
so to get an abortion.

 

[Pogo]

No woman in the US today is forced to have a baby. Abortion is legal in the US.

Also, If you go down this road then this will be an argument for abortion up to birth.

Which runs afoul of the equal protection and due process clauses of the 14th amendment which state that all american citizens are are guaranteed equal liberty and protection of equality regardless of religion as guaranteed by the first amendment.

Under what logic do you find that women should have different rights to liberty and equality according to where they live?