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The Thirteenth Amendment and Abortion Rights

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Fourteenth Amendment, Section 1:
AMENDMENT XIV​
Section 1.​
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.​

Clause 1: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

An unborn fetus has not been "born or naturalized in the United States," so is not yet a citizen. The pregnant person has been born, however, and can be counted among the citizenry.

Clause 2: No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States

The pregnant person would qualify for this, but not an unborn fetus.

Clause 3: nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law

The State is not depriving an unborn fetus of life, liberty, or property, but the State would be denying a pregnant person liberty if it enacts laws forcing her to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term. (See 13th amendment, "Badges and Incidents of Slavery--Forced labor for the benefit of another person" from the opening post

Clause 4: nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

The United States even recognizes bodily autonomy of corpses, (the right to not have its organs utilized without permission) so would also have to recognize bodily autonomy of pregnant persons and give pregnant persons the same protections afforded to corpses.
Likewise, a person who has been born does not have the right to demand tissues or organs from any other person, nor can the State compel a person to donate bodily tissues or organs to another.
THE CORPUS OF SUPREME COURT OPINIONS FROM 1850-1880 CONFIRMS THAT AN UNBORN CHILD IS A PERSON WITHIN THE MEANING OF THE FOURTEENTH AMENDMENT TO THE U.S. CONSTITUTION.Jul 28, 2021.

In the medical sense and for insurance, the unborn qualifies as a person and by law can receive care. If you kill the unborn you deprive it of life, birth and citizenship, which is why the unborn was always assumed to qualify, by the corpus of court opinions, at the time the amendment was added and ironed out; 1850-1880.

Back then, if you saw a pregnant woman and she seemed healthy, you expected a child to be born. Mother talk to the unborn before it is born. If an angry husband was to punch her in the stomach and harm the unborn, that is against the law. It was not just an assault on the woman but also on the unborn person.

Women can claim welfare benefits for the unborn during pregnancy. Welfare recognizes the unborn.

Abortion gamed the system, with a loophole, for a small group, to protect all the money involved; $billions. We should not have dual standards for unborn person, where the death penalty is legal, but depriving care or welfare is not.

A right applies to all, while an entitlement applies to some. Even the term, a women's right to abortion is a scam, since a right applies to all; free speech, voting, owning guns, etc. Those are human rights and the unborn can be proven to be human even at conception.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
THE CORPUS OF SUPREME COURT OPINIONS FROM 1850-1880 CONFIRMS THAT AN UNBORN CHILD IS A PERSON WITHIN THE MEANING OF THE FOURTEENTH AMENDMENT TO THE U.S. CONSTITUTION.Jul 28, 2021.

In the medical sense and for insurance, the unborn qualifies as a person and by law can receive care. If you kill the unborn you deprive it of life, birth and citizenship, which is why the unborn was always assumed to qualify, by the corpus of court opinions, at the time the amendment was added and ironed out; 1850-1880.

Back then, if you saw a pregnant woman and she seemed healthy, you expected a child to be born. Mother talk to the unborn before it is born. If an angry husband was to punch her in the stomach and harm the unborn, that is against the law. It was not just an assault on the woman but also on the unborn person.

Women can claim welfare benefits for the unborn during pregnancy. Welfare recognizes the unborn.

Abortion gamed the system, with a loophole, for a small group, to protect all the money involved; $billions. We should not have dual standards for unborn person, where the death penalty is legal, but depriving care or welfare is not.

A right applies to all, while an entitlement applies to some. Even the term, a women's right to abortion is a scam, since a right applies to all; free speech, voting, owning guns, etc. Those are human rights and the unborn can be proven to be human even at conception.
The right in question is bodily autonomy--which we extend even to corpses of once sentient beings. You cannot harvest the organs or tissues from a corpse unless explicit consent was given. No one can compel a person to donate blood, tissues or organs to another without consent. This right to bodily autonomy extends to all.
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
To give up the basic right of bodily autonomy.

Just trying to figure out if pregnant people are the only ones you deem unworthy of basic human rights or if you're against bodily autonomy generally.
Nope, I believe all human life has a right to life. You do not.
They created a child with health issues, or at least with the potential for health issues.
So what, they did not create the health issues. I guess if you think this makes sense you can sue your parents for any issue you have
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
This was in response to, "No, I hold the position that the right to bodily autonomy supersedes the right to life."


Cool. So when the time comes that I need a kidney transplant, you will have no problem with me forcing you to give me yours. And even if you don't want to give it to me, tough luck for you, because you hold the position that bodily autonomy does not supersede the right to life.
Nope, you need to actually read my stance I have posted many times.
 

anotherneil

Well-Known Member
Pregnant people are physically restrained to the task at hand: hosting an embryo or fetus within their body. The pregnant person is physically forced to provide for the fetus literally from their own body functions. If the states extend personhood to the fetus and forbids breaking the physical retraints via termination of pregnancy, then it qualifies as both involuntary servitude and compulsory service--forced labor for the benefit of another person. Since there is no contract requiring completion of the pregnancy, then it must be considered to be an -at-will arrangement. When you remove the at-will aspect, it becomes compulsory service, aka, slavery. (as defined as one of the badges and incidents of slavery by the courts.)
I actually think you may be on to something with the 13th Amendment, but I'll get to that later.

Right now, I want to go over the fact that you're basically playing semantics games, not to mention committing several fallacies, but I'll go with your own argument since I can still offer a rebuttal for it anyways.

Although you're attacking a strawman, given that you're portraying personhood as something that's granted or denied by the state rather than what it's inherently about - a human being, either way, in a pregnant woman (and we know that it's a human being since it's the same species as the pregnant mother that it's in) & it's a question of human beings having a right to live, we can also discuss the issue of personhood for a pregnant mother and personhood for an Antebellum era slaves (as in Africans brought to the Americas as slaves and their descendants who were born into slavery).

Antebellum era slaves, based on your own reasoning approach or rules, had their personhood denied or taken away from them, as slaves brought to the Americas. In the same manner, an embryo or fetus of a pregnant woman is also having her or his personhood denied or taken away.

Note that you're explicitly assuming personhood for the pregnant mother by referring to her as a "pregnant person"; whether it's because you think it's inherent, or because you think it was granted once the mother was herself born, probably from - as you put it, a "forced birth", but you make no effort to defend why or how it's inherent or why it ought to be granted.

You want it to be inherent or granted that a pregnant woman is a person (and I wonder if you're using circular reasoning to come up with this conclusion), but you don't want it to be inherent or granted that an embryo or fetus is a person; that's a double standard. Which is it, do we have a contract to recognize human beings as people, or not?

If personhood is inherent (as opposed to something that's granted or denied to human beings by the state), then a pregnant mother is a person, an embryo or fetus in a pregnant mother is a person, and an Antebellum era slave is a person.

If personhood is just something granted or denied by the state, then that's not the test; the test is whether a pregnant human mother is a human being, an embryo or fetus in a pregnant human mother is a human being, and an Antebellum era slave is a human being; they're all human beings.

I'm actually with you that there has to be agreement about issues, policies, etc. That's exactly what the US Constitution in general is about; there are those who want to trash the US Constitution (such as with freedom from religion and right to keep and bear arms), and I'm very opposed to that (particularly with those 2 examples), but there can't be an agreement when there are any inconsistencies or double standards involved.

The inability of having an agreement with any inconsistencies or double standards involved doesn't have to do with someone's will or unwillingness to go along with the agreement or constitution; it has to do with being a logically impossible issue.

As I said at the beginning, I actually think that you might be on to something with the 13th Amendment and associating some laws regarding what someone can do with their body, but I don't agree with the approach you're taking to make your argument.

I used to be one of these rather absolutist pro life types, but have since changed my position about certain aspects of it. I still consider invasive procedures that involve ripping up a fetus to be manslaughter (I'm not an anarchist), but as a libertarian, I think someone has just as much a right to consume something that induces a miscarriage as they do to consume food, water, etc.

This means that I think that any laws that restrict or prohibit a pregnant woman from consuming something that happens to induce a miscarriage can be construed as a form of slavery, thus unconstitutional infringement of the 13th Amendment.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Since when do a person's most basic rights vary depending on what state they're in?
That is ludicrous.
I don't think anyone believes that rights depend upon
the state one is in. This is why Vance wants to surveil
women who cross state lines. Their ultimate goal is
to make abortion illegal everywhere. Project 2025
explicitly says so.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Nope, I believe all human life has a right to life. You do not.

... to the same extent as you. I'm just not a hypocrite about it.


So what, they did not create the health issues. I guess if you think this makes sense you can sue your parents for any issue you have

A couple trying to get pregnant may not have intended to have a child with leukemia or kidney failure, just as a couple having sex may not have intended to get pregnant. The degree of responsibility for the outcome is the same.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
There are many different circumstances that can lead to an unwanted pregnancy, but your position appears to be that all pregnancies should be brought to term regardless of what led up to them.
I never said that.
Nevertheless, it can be inferred from everything you've said: (1) Human life starts in the womb, and (2) You consider human life sacred. IOW, the full range of pregnancy should be "protected" from conception. You have voiced no exceptions, even for rape or incest. After all, embryos and fetuses that develop from those violent acts would still be human life.

There is no constitutional basis. That is why it is rightly left with each state to decide as the constitution states.

Since the Constitution defines the legal system under which states exist, they still have to have some public or civil purpose. They cannot restrict rights and privileges on the basis of arbitrary religious or moral doctrines.

Section 1​

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.​


I don't base my abortion stance on conception. I base it in on human life growing in the womb.

Does this not include a fertilized egg that attaches to the wall of a uterus? Life begins at conception, does it not? You seem to be making a distinction without a difference.

No woman in the US is forced to have a baby. All have the right to get an abortion. Why do you lie about that?

The purpose of a law that criminalizes abortions is obviously to force women to have babies that they don't want. You know that, and so does everyone reading this thread. So stop trying to gaslight us. It is obvious that women prevented from getting a medical abortion are having a condition of pregnancy forced on them until they have a baby.

Ok, then why are you against murder? (I assume you are)

I am, and for obvious reasons. Anyone born in the US is entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Abortions are not murder, since they do not deprive individuals under the jurisdiction of US law (see Article 14, Section 1 printed above). Nor are they any of your business, if you are not the pregnant woman.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
...In the medical sense and for insurance, the unborn qualifies as a person and by law can receive care. If you kill the unborn you deprive it of life, birth and citizenship, which is why the unborn was always assumed to qualify, by the corpus of court opinions, at the time the amendment was added and ironed out; 1850-1880.

Back then, if you saw a pregnant woman and she seemed healthy, you expected a child to be born. Mother talk to the unborn before it is born. If an angry husband was to punch her in the stomach and harm the unborn, that is against the law. It was not just an assault on the woman but also on the unborn person.

Women can claim welfare benefits for the unborn during pregnancy. Welfare recognizes the unborn...

None of this confers any civil rights on a fetus in the womb. The rights always accrue to the pregnant woman. Welfare and insurance checks are not cashed by fetuses. There is nothing wrong with giving special privileges and protections to a woman's condition of pregnancy. There is nothing wrong with allowing her to terminate a pregnancy before the fetus is capable of surviving on its own outside of the womb.
 

anotherneil

Well-Known Member
None of this confers any civil rights on a fetus in the womb. The rights always accrue to the pregnant woman. Welfare and insurance checks are not cashed by fetuses. There is nothing wrong with giving special privileges and protections to a woman's condition of pregnancy. There is nothing wrong with allowing her to terminate a pregnancy before the fetus is capable of surviving on its own outside of the womb.
Welfare and insurance checks are not cashed by infants and toddlers, either.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
Nope, I believe all human life has a right to life. You do not.

So what, they did not create the health issues. I guess if you think this makes sense you can sue your parents for any issue you have
Up there with cancer cells which are much more closely related to the host genetics.
This is not really your argument.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
I don't think anyone believes that rights depend upon
the state one is in. This is why Vance wants to surveil
women who cross state lines. Their ultimate goal is
to make abortion illegal everywhere. Project 2025
explicitly says so.
Well that was sort of the point of the reconstruction amendments, some people did and still do believe otherwise.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
Welfare and insurance checks are not cashed by infants and toddlers, either.
tenor.gif
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Welfare and insurance checks are not cashed by infants and toddlers, either.

But infants and toddlers are US citizens with full protection under the law as defined in the Constitution. You keep grasping at straws to support your opinion that women's pregnancies and health options should be restricted to treat embryos and fetuses as legal individuals with rights. That has not been the case historically, and it is not even what the majority of voters want. Hence the Republican efforts around the country to keep citizens from voting in state referendums and initiatives to protect and preserve reproductive rights. We all know that the SCOTUS reversal of Roe v Wade is massively unpopular in the country, so Republicans will take extreme measures to keep voters away from keeping or restoring rights at the state level.

Voters back abortion rights, but some opponents won’t relent. Is the commitment to democracy in question?

 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
I actually think you may be on to something with the 13th Amendment, but I'll get to that later.

Right now, I want to go over the fact that you're basically playing semantics games, not to mention committing several fallacies, but I'll go with your own argument since I can still offer a rebuttal for it anyways.

Although you're attacking a strawman, given that you're portraying personhood as something that's granted or denied by the state rather than what it's inherently about - a human being, either way, in a pregnant woman (and we know that it's a human being since it's the same species as the pregnant mother that it's in) & it's a question of human beings having a right to live, we can also discuss the issue of personhood for a pregnant mother and personhood for an Antebellum era slaves (as in Africans brought to the Americas as slaves and their descendants who were born into slavery).
My argument is that if you consider pre-sentient, pre-viable fetuses as persons, you are only strengthening the argument that forcing a pregnant person to continue a pregnancy when the fetus is pre-viable constitutes slavery, as there is no opportunity to stop the unconsensual use of her organs and bodily tissues. If the pregnant person wishes to end the pregnancy post-viability, she can induce birth prematurely and end the pregnancy, give up parental rights, and the born-alive fetus can be treated as any other person entitled to medical care by the state.
Antebellum era slaves, based on your own reasoning approach or rules, had their personhood denied or taken away from them, as slaves brought to the Americas. In the same manner, an embryo or fetus of a pregnant woman is also having her or his personhood denied or taken away.
The pregnant person, if forced to continue the unconsensual use of her organs and bodily tissues is having her personhood denied. The previable fetus is not having its personhood denied by terminating a pregnancy, as no person is entitled to the bodily tissues or organs of another without consent.
Note that you're explicitly assuming personhood for the pregnant mother by referring to her as a "pregnant person"; whether it's because you think it's inherent, or because you think it was granted once the mother was herself born, probably from - as you put it, a "forced birth", but you make no effort to defend why or how it's inherent or why it ought to be granted.
If you are assuming personhood for an infant, then a pregnant woman would also qualify as a person, as she was once in such a state of development. If you are assuming personhood for an unborn fetus, then the pregnant woman would also qualify as a person, as she was also once in that state of development. If you assume personhood for both a pregnant woman and an unborn fetus, the pregnant person's personal rights would also allow for terminating an unconsensual pregnancy, as her bodily tissues and organs cannot be demanded without consent, and no person can demand another's bodily tissues or organs (not even from a corpse) without consent, even if they would die without it. Therefore, the right to bodily autonomy persists even when up against any other's right to life.
You want it to be inherent or granted that a pregnant woman is a person (and I wonder if you're using circular reasoning to come up with this conclusion), but you don't want it to be inherent or granted that an embryo or fetus is a person; that's a double standard. Which is it, do we have a contract to recognize human beings as people, or not?
Even if you recognize personhood of both pre-viable unborn fetuses and pregnant women, the pregnant woman's bodily autonomy is not surrendered. If you confer special rights on pre-viable unborn fetuses (that other persons do not have) to be entitled to their hosts bodily tissues and organs, then you are enslaving the pregnant woman. The only double standard would be to grant special rights to an unborn fetus that other persons do not have. The right to bodily autonomy persists even after death, as referenced to organ donation from corpses requiring consent (volunteering as an organ donor while alive. Organ donor status cannot be assumed.)
If personhood is inherent (as opposed to something that's granted or denied to human beings by the state), then a pregnant mother is a person, an embryo or fetus in a pregnant mother is a person, and an Antebellum era slave is a person.
Yes. My argument still holds if this is the standard.
If personhood is just something granted or denied by the state, then that's not the test; the test is whether a pregnant human mother is a human being, an embryo or fetus in a pregnant human mother is a human being, and an Antebellum era slave is a human being; they're all human beings.
Yes, my argument still holds if this is the standard.
I'm actually with you that there has to be agreement about issues, policies, etc. That's exactly what the US Constitution in general is about; there are those who want to trash the US Constitution (such as with freedom from religion and right to keep and bear arms), and I'm very opposed to that (particularly with those 2 examples), but there can't be an agreement when there are any inconsistencies or double standards involved.
Where is my double standard? The conclusions are the same for whatever standard you set that doesn't involve slavery.
The inability of having an agreement with any inconsistencies or double standards involved doesn't have to do with someone's will or unwillingness to go along with the agreement or constitution; it has to do with being a logically impossible issue.
Where is the logically impossible issue? Slavery is outlawed.
As I said at the beginning, I actually think that you might be on to something with the 13th Amendment and associating some laws regarding what someone can do with their body, but I don't agree with the approach you're taking to make your argument.
By all means, poke holes in the argument.
I used to be one of these rather absolutist pro life types, but have since changed my position about certain aspects of it. I still consider invasive procedures that involve ripping up a fetus to be manslaughter (I'm not an anarchist), but as a libertarian, I think someone has just as much a right to consume something that induces a miscarriage as they do to consume food, water, etc.

This means that I think that any laws that restrict or prohibit a pregnant woman from consuming something that happens to induce a miscarriage can be construed as a form of slavery, thus unconstitutional infringement of the 13th Amendment.
A surgical method is safer.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
I posted these two posts on another thread, but I think this deserves a thread of its own. Please tell me if my reasoning is faulty or has merit. Thank you.

The Thirteenth Amendment of The US Constitution:

Thirteenth Amendment​


Section 1​



Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.


Section 2​



Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

---------------------------
These are the two posts from another thread regarding applying the Thirteenth Amendment to pregnant persons who do not wish to continue their pregnancy and being forced to do so being a form of slavery:


Have you considered the13th Amendment outlawing slavery and how the "badges and incidents of slavery" could be applied to pregnant women forced to carry a pregnancy to term? Do you think the 13th Amendment should be given over to the States? The Courts gave that to Congress to decide.

Court defined "badges and incidents of slavery"

Type of restriction or actionExplanation
Compulsory service Forced labor for the benefit of another person
Restrictions on movementLimitations on where a person can go
Property and contract restrictionsInability to own property or enter into contracts
Court and testimony restrictionsInability to have standing in court or testify against a white person
Racial discriminationRacial discrimination by private housing developers and private schools



The Compulsory Service badge and incident would apply to abortion restrictions. The Racial Discrimination badge and incidents (in this case discrimination against pregnant persons) would apply to Hospital Emergency Rooms turning away pregnant persons in medical distress. The Restriction on Movement badge and incidents would apply to states or municipalites that try to pass laws against pregnant persons traveling to get an abortion.
First let me see if I can understand what the argument is:
  1. The thirteenth amendment makes involuntary servitude unconstitutional.
  2. Pregnancy is a form of involuntary servitude, because it is compulsory service (forced labor for the benefit of another person).
  3. Pregnant women must be allowed to voluntarily end their pregnancies at any time (right to abort).
Intuitively it seems like an inappropriate application of the Thirteenth Amendment, but let's dig into it!
First Question: Who is the person benefiting from the forced labor of the pregnant woman?
The primary beneficiary of the preganancy would be the unborn child, but then to apply this amendment, we must consider the unborn child to be a person entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. So the argument falls apart, because the argument does not justify the murder of the beneficiary.
The secondary beneficiary would be the pregnant woman herself. That is not "another person". So the argument falls apart.
The tertiary beneficiary would be the father, but in the general case the father contributes to the labor which has been begun under mutual consent. The only case in which it is forced labor is rape.

Taken as a whole, then, it seems that the thirteenth amendment does not bestow a general right to abortion.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
First let me see if I can understand what the argument is:
  1. The thirteenth amendment makes involuntary servitude unconstitutional.
  2. Pregnancy is a form of involuntary servitude, because it is compulsory service (forced labor for the benefit of another person).
  3. Pregnant women must be allowed to voluntarily end their pregnancies at any time (right to abort).
Intuitively it seems like an inappropriate application of the Thirteenth Amendment, but let's dig into it!
First Question: Who is the person benefiting from the forced labor of the pregnant woman?
The primary beneficiary of the preganancy would be the unborn child, but then to apply this amendment, we must consider the unborn child to be a person entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. So the argument falls apart, because the argument does not justify the murder of the beneficiary.
The secondary beneficiary would be the pregnant woman herself. That is not "another person". So the argument falls apart.
The tertiary beneficiary would be the father, but in the general case the father contributes to the labor which has been begun under mutual consent. The only case in which it is forced labor is rape.

Taken as a whole, then, it seems that the thirteenth amendment does not bestow a general right to abortion.
Even if you consider a pre-viable fetus to be a person, the pregnant person's right to bodily autonomy prevails over any other person's right to life, as even a corpse has the bodily autonomy to not have its tissues or organs harvested unless consent to do so was granted (being a designated organ donor.) No person is entitled to anyone else's bodily tissues or organs without consent, even if they would die without it.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
Even if you consider a pre-viable fetus to be a person, the pregnant person's right to bodily autonomy prevails over any other person's right to life, as even a corpse has the bodily autonomy to not have its tissues or organs harvested unless consent to do so was granted (being a designated organ donor.) No person is entitled to anyone else's bodily tissues or organs without consent, even if they would die without it.
Okay, so in order to argue from the Thirteenth Amendment, you accept a priori that a fetus is a person.
Then you argue that a pregnant person has a right to bodily autonomy that prevails over any other person's right to life.
You then make some remarks about how the organs of a corpse can't be given without consent to other people.

First of all, if you accept that a fetus is a person, you accept that a fetus has a right to life, which means that it shall not be deprived of life without due process of law. That means that a pregnant woman cannot legally simply kill a fetus.

Second of all, a fetus does not harvest a woman's organs. After a baby is born the women's organs remain her own. Perhaps you would care to rephrase your argument about bodily autonomy. But you should also address how the death penalty is an acceptable punishment for the alleged violation of bodily autonomy. For example, organ harvesting is not a crime punishable by death.

Finally, if you accept the fetus is a person, then the question of a woman's responsibility to care for her child is at issue, meaning that a woman who neglects the basic needs of her children (including adequate food, clothing, housing, or health care) has commited child abuse, a crime punishable by jail time, fines, probation, and other consequences.
 
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