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The Thirteenth Amendment and Abortion Rights

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
Not if they don't have the time or resources.



And in the 17 that don't, 6 weeks effectively amounts to a total abortion ban.


Do you think it's normal or reasonable to have to leave your own state to access basic healthcare?

Would you think it reasonable if, say, 90% of Americans would have to travel more than 100 miles to get chemotherapy or have a broken bone set?

The fact is we have a fundamental difference of opinion. You believe there is no life to protect, I believe there is a human life to be protected. We can talk all we want about these issues but until that issue is agreed upon these other issues are irrelevant.
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
How do you reconcile these two statements with the reality of the long arm of Texas trying to reach across state borders? You stated you disagree with it, but it is a reality. Fortunately, Washington State has implimented Shield Laws to protect against this.
I know of no Texas law yet that bans women from crossing state line to get an abortion. That would be unconstitutional in my opinion and never hold up.
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
And I've known a few other atheists who oppose abortion rights. It always puzzles me, because I can never quite understand why they are so concerned about forcing a woman to give birth, once a pregnancy has begun, rather than to leave that decision to the person who bears responsibility for the child that would result. Do they have some concept of an immaterial soul that possesses a right to be born? @Clizby Wampuscat has not attempted to explain or clarify the basis for that concern, AFAICT. It is possible to be an atheist and still believe in the existence of disembodied or immaterial souls, I suppose.
I do not believe in souls or any kind of crap like that. I have clarified my stance many times before. It comes down to I think that the fetus is a human life that should be protected once started in the womb. Women can travel to get medical procedures needed just like everyone else. Also, almost all women (and the men they have sex with) that are pregnant have the choice to do so or not.
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
This claim is as true as the claim that abortion is illegal in the US. How can that be? Well, Clizby's claim only means that abortion is legal in some states, just not all of them. By the same token, abortion is illegal in some states, just not all of them. Such word games have no place in an honest discussion. We all know what the situation is. Some women living in states that criminalize abortion are forced by their circumstances to have a baby that they do not want. Nobody is arguing that abortion is illegal in all states in the US.
Many people have to travel to get medical attention they need. People need to stop saying women are forced to give birth, that is not true.
Logically, this claim is known as a slippery slope fallacy.

In a slippery slope argument, a course of action is rejected because the slippery slope advocate believes it will lead to a chain reaction resulting in an undesirable end or ends.[1] The core of the slippery slope argument is that a specific decision under debate is likely to result in unintended consequences. The strength of such an argument depends on whether the small step really is likely to lead to the effect. This is quantified in terms of what is known as the warrant (in this case, a demonstration of the process that leads to the significant effect).​
So what, it is a possible outcome of the argument.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The fact is we have a fundamental difference of opinion. You believe there is no life to protect, I believe there is a human life to be protected. We can talk all we want about these issues but until that issue is agreed upon these other issues are irrelevant.
No, the question of whether the fetus is a "human life" is irrelevant to the question of whether abortion should be legal.

What we disagree on is whether the pregnant person deserves basic human rights. I say yes; you say no.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I know of no Texas law yet that bans women from crossing state line to get an abortion. That would be unconstitutional in my opinion and never hold up.
The thing about unconstitutional laws is that they're enforced until they're challenged, and to challenge them, you need lawyers... who generally don't work for free.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
I do not believe in souls or any kind of crap like that. I have clarified my stance many times before. It comes down to I think that the fetus is a human life that should be protected once started in the womb. Women can travel to get medical procedures needed just like everyone else. Also, almost all women (and the men they have sex with) that are pregnant have the choice to do so or not.

Many people have to travel to get medical attention they need. People need to stop saying women are forced to give birth, that is not true.

Merely repeating your opinion does not clarify it. You have been asked many times to explain why you believed that a "human life started in the womb" should be entitled to protection until birth. How is it of benefit to society to force women to carry a pregnancy to full term, especially if the woman hosting the pregnancy does not want that? You can refuse to answer all you want, but it is a fair question that goes unanswered. You clearly have no religious motivation, so what makes that life sacred to you?

Then you shift from disapproval of all abortions to a position that it's ok to require women to face the expense and difficulty of leaving their state for an abortion. Everyone knows you oppose abortions, no matter what state they are in. The only reasonable conclusion we can come to is that you want obstacles put in the way of a woman who seeks a legal abortion. Knowing that she may be thwarted in getting the medical treatment gives you a sense of satisfaction, apparently. It is disingenuous to act as if no women will have pregnancies forced on them by an out-of-state requirement. We know from history that many will seek health-threatening alternative solutions, including back-alley abortions locally, when travel to another state is extremely difficult or impossible for them.

So what, it is a possible outcome of the argument.

But not a valid one. That's why they are called fallacies. In the case of a slippery slope argument, you need to explain why you think the outcome would be likely, not just possible.
 
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Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
No, the question of whether the fetus is a "human life" is irrelevant to the question of whether abortion should be legal.

What we disagree on is whether the pregnant person deserves basic human rights. I say yes; you say no.
Nope. The point is I don't believe anyone has the basic human right to kill another human life unless in self defense, not even a pregnant person. I could say that you do believe we have the right to kill another human life but I don't think you believe that.
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
The thing about unconstitutional laws is that they're enforced until they're challenged, and to challenge them, you need lawyers... who generally don't work for free.
If this actually gets enacted, there will be plenty of organizations that will sue. Anyway, I am against these laws so why blame me?
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
Merely repeating your opinion does not clarify it. You have been asked many times to explain why you believed that a "human life started in the womb" should be entitled to protection until birth. How is it of benefit to society to force women to carry a pregnancy to full term, especially if the woman hosting the pregnancy does not want that?
I never said it did or did not benefit society. Is that your criteria? It is not mine.
You can refuse to answer all you want, but it is a fair question that goes unanswered. You clearly have no religious motivation, so what makes that life sacred to you?
Life is sacred. It is because it is short and there is no afterlife that makes it valuable. I am happy I was born and am able to experience this life. Most people are.
Then you shift from disapproval of all abortions to a position that it's ok to require women to face the expense and difficulty of leaving their state for an abortion. Everyone knows you oppose abortions, no matter what state they are in. The only reasonable conclusion we can come to is that you want obstacles put in the way of a woman who seeks a legal abortion. Knowing that she may be thwarted in getting the medical treatment gives you a sense of satisfaction, apparently. It is disingenuous to act as if no women will have pregnancies forced on them by an out-of-state requirement. We know from history that many will seek health-threatening alternative solutions, including back-alley abortions locally, when travel to another state is extremely difficult or impossible for them.
I get no satisfaction out of an abortion or of a woman being on this situation. That is a tactic your side uses all the time, make me into a dirtbag so you can dismiss my ideas. You dismiss the fact that I believe it is a human life that is being killed.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member

Yep.

The point is I don't believe anyone has the basic human right to kill another human life unless in self defense, not even a pregnant person. I could say that you do believe we have the right to kill another human life but I don't think you believe that.

I hold the position that every person holds the right to bodily autonomy. You disagree with this position.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Merely repeating your opinion does not clarify it. You have been asked many times to explain why you believed that a "human life started in the womb" should be entitled to protection until birth. How is it of benefit to society to force women to carry a pregnancy to full term, especially if the woman hosting the pregnancy does not want that?
I never said it did or did not benefit society. Is that your criteria? It is not mine.

Then what is your criterion? I don't care what your personal feelings are about pregnancies, family planning, or the sexual behavior of others. That is your business. But government in the US is only empowered to pass laws that have a constitutional basis. The Preamble makes clear that the purpose of the Constitution is to benefit society--"in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity." If a law provides no benefit to society, how is the government able to restrict the freedom of a woman and her doctors dealing with an unwanted pregnancy? It has a bearing on her physical and mental health, not yours.

You can refuse to answer all you want, but it is a fair question that goes unanswered. You clearly have no religious motivation, so what makes that life sacred to you?
Life is sacred. It is because it is short and there is no afterlife that makes it valuable. I am happy I was born and am able to experience this life. Most people are.

I don't know what "sacred" means to you. Normally, we associate sacredness with a religious conviction. You believe, as well as I do, that there is no beforelife or afterlife, just life in between birth and death. By your logic, all fertilized eggs are entitled to go through development in a womb and be born, despite the wishes of the mature adult citizen hosting them, if they happen to get attached to the wall of a uterus. They don't even have to have developed brains. How does this serve any purpose or benefit to society? Do you think that laws can just be arbitrary restrictions that some body of legislators decides to impose on a whim?

Then you shift from disapproval of all abortions to a position that it's ok to require women to face the expense and difficulty of leaving their state for an abortion. Everyone knows you oppose abortions, no matter what state they are in. The only reasonable conclusion we can come to is that you want obstacles put in the way of a woman who seeks a legal abortion. Knowing that she may be thwarted in getting the medical treatment gives you a sense of satisfaction, apparently. It is disingenuous to act as if no women will have pregnancies forced on them by an out-of-state requirement. We know from history that many will seek health-threatening alternative solutions, including back-alley abortions locally, when travel to another state is extremely difficult or impossible for them.
I get no satisfaction out of an abortion or of a woman being on this situation. That is a tactic your side uses all the time, make me into a dirtbag so you can dismiss my ideas. You dismiss the fact that I believe it is a human life that is being killed.

I don't think that you are a dirtbag, and this has nothing to do with a "side". I said that it was reasonable to assume that you derived some satisfaction from the status quo--requiring women in some states to either give birth or seek an abortion out of state. I dismiss your argument, because you fail to give any reasonable justification for your belief that pregnant women be required to carry a pregnancy to term, despite their desire not to. Life being "sacred" to you alone seems to be the only justification you can come up with for applying these imposed pregnancies on women. As you point out, life is short, so why make pregnant women suffer because of your personal feeling about how they should deal with their pregnancies? They face a short life as much as you do--perhaps even shorter because of the ability of anti-abortionists to expose them to risky conditions of pregnancy.
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
Yep.



I hold the position that every person holds the right to bodily autonomy. You disagree with this position.
No I don't. You can tell me what I think all day it does not make it true.

I hold the position that every person has a right to life. You disagree with this position.
 
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