The ToE and common ancestry of all life forms did not come from looking at the evidence

[Autodidact]

Well, I'm not a scientist, I'm a man of faith so that stuff doesn't bother me.

Yes, I understand. You reject science in favor of myth as a way of learning about the natural world. How's that working out for you? Should you (heaven forbid) contract Hansen's disease, would you consult a doctor, or would you dip one bird into the blood of another and sacrifice it to YWHA?

 

[Man of Faith]

So why isn't believing your Creation myth a matter of faith for which you NEED no scientific evidence

I'm just trying to answer the questions to be best of my ability, and trying to be honest. When I don't know I will say it. Like I said I believe by faith, but looking at the science and how it supports my faith is fun too.

 

[Man of Faith]

So then why are you even trying to argue with people who do require evidence? You've just admitted that you don't consider rationality necessary (faith is 100% subjective and 0% rational - soren kierkegaard) yet you're trying to debate with people who at least claim to value rationality.

Don't you see how futile that is? And how foolish your belief in creationism is? (I guess I already know the answer - I'm just hoping maybe you'll have an "aha moment")

Well, I have a question for you. If someone comes over to my house and dines with me, then years later a scientist comes over and says there is no evidence that person was ever there, what should I do, believe the science?

 

[Man of Faith]

Alright, back to evolution. Seems like MoF was with us and agreed that new species arise, and also new genii, all in the way described by evolutionary theory. He doesn't know what a "kind" is, but feels comfortable that species and genus fit within it.

Say so far we covered 10,000 years. This process continues and is going on all the time all around you. (Isn't God amazing?) So over a million years, after many new species have emerged, they will continue to differentiate from the ancestral lizard in the same way, over and over, getting more and more different from their ancestor and each other as you go along. After a million years, you have new species, new genii, new families, and so forth. Over a billion years, you inevitably get new orders, new classes, and even new phylla, all from the same ancestor.

Some important things to be clear about: you never see a new class or even a new genus emerging. All you ever see is a new species. It's only over much time, and many new species, that they can be grouped into genii, families and so forth. In retrospect, you might say.

And, as you can see, it's very, very, gradual. Individuals don't change, populations do. Each generation resembles its parents almost exactly, with slight variation. But over thousands of generations the population has gradually changes so much that the descendants are not in the same species as the thousands-of-generations-ago ancestor.

Got any problems with any of that, MoF?

You mean (Isn't Time amazing).

 

[Autodidact]

I'm just trying to answer the questions to be best of my ability, and trying to be honest. When I don't know I will say it. Like I said I believe by faith, but looking at the science and how it supports my faith is fun too.

Except when it doesn't. Then you ignore it.

 

[Autodidact]

Well, I have a question for you. If someone comes over to my house and dines with me, then years later a scientist comes over and says there is no evidence that person was ever there, what should I do, believe the science?

Isn't your own experience evidence? Are you saying that you watched God magically poof the lizard kind into existence? If not, how is this question relevant?

 

[OmarKhayyam]

Well, I have a question for you. If someone comes over to my house and dines with me, then years later a scientist comes over and says there is no evidence that person was ever there, what should I do, believe the science?

Can you please explain the relevance of that "analogy?"

 

[Autodidact]

You mean (Isn't Time amazing).

No, I meant isn't God amazing. Are you reading my posts? We're all assuming, for the purpose of this thread, that God created all things, remember? My theory is that He did so through evolution, so when evolution results in new species, that's to the glory of God.

 

[Man of Faith]

Can you please explain the relevance of that "analogy?"

Sure no problem, it has two analogies. One is it shows there are limitations to science. Two it shows that I could know God personally and interact with God and science not be able to detect it.

 

[MSizer]

Well, I have a question for you. If someone comes over to my house and dines with me, then years later a scientist comes over and says there is no evidence that person was ever there, what should I do, believe the science?

You're missing the whole point. If a person found dna of mine in the chair in the dead skin cells (i thought I'd better specify where it came from so nobody got gross about it) should you refuse to believe that I was there just becuase your wife says she wasn't there that night so she thinks I was never there?

That's what's going on here. There is evidence for evolution. Period. There is no evidece for ID. Period. You're the one denying the evidence, not the other way around.

 

[Autodidact]

I'm just trying to answer the questions to be best of my ability, and trying to be honest.

Yup. And look where it got you: clueless and confused. Maybe you should go back and re-examine your hypothesis. That's what a scientist would do.

When I don't know I will say it. Like I said I believe by faith, but looking at the science and how it supports my faith is fun too.

No, you said you believe by faith. That's not the same thing as "I don't know." Or should we translate "I believe by faith" to mean "I don't know" when you say it?

We're not doing faith here, Man, we're doing science. Because you agree that science works, right?

 

[Autodidact]

Sure no problem, it has two analogies. One is it shows there are limitations to science. Two it shows that I could know God personally and interact with God and science not be able to detect it.

Yes, yes, we know that. Remember, we all agree that God exists and created all things. Are you slow or why do I have to keep repeating that? We are using science not to try to figure out whether God exists, or created all things, but how. How. How. Get it? Please don't make me repeat this, I only get so many keystrokes in my life.

And we all know there are limitations to science. Are you saying that you reject the scientific method because of those limitations? Because earlier you said you practice it.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

Sure no problem, it has two analogies. One is it shows there are limitations to science. Two it shows that I could know God personally and interact with God and science not be able to detect it.

Let's assume arguendo you actually DO speak with your god and apart from your assertion no evidence of this contact can be found.

What has that got to do with ToE?

Or has your god told you he poofed specie into existence?

 

[Man of Faith]

No, I meant isn't God amazing. Are you reading my posts? We're all assuming, for the purpose of this thread, that God created all things, remember? My theory is that He did so through evolution, so when evolution results in new species, that's to the glory of God.

Well you said "Over a billion years, you inevitably get new orders", really inevitably? Time is amazing.

 

[ragordon168]

Well, I have a question for you. If someone comes over to my house and dines with me, then years later a scientist comes over and says there is no evidence that person was ever there, what should I do, believe the science?

thats a bit different. you'd have the memory of the evening to base your claim on.

example:

• person A is locked underground at age 10.
• person B is locked underground from birth.
• person B is given information stating that the sky is green.

if after many years locked underground they are both asked what colour the sky is.

• person A will answer blue as he will have the memory of the sky from before he was locked underground
• person B will answer green as he has never seen the sky and only has his belief that the info he has read is true.

 

[Man of Faith]

Let's assume arguendo you actually DO speak with your god and apart from your assertion no evidence of this contact can be found.

What has that got to do with ToE?

Or has your god told you he poofed specie into existence?

I have the Biblical creation account which is not compatible with the ToE. So if I know from experience that God exists, and I cannot know from experience that common ancestry is true, which one should I go with?

 

[Autodidact]

Well you said "Over a billion years, you inevitably get new orders", really inevitably? Time is amazing.

Do you see why? If this process goes on, all the time, inexorably, with populations gradually changing, after a long time, they will have diverged that much from their ancestral species--enough to be classified as an order.

Do you have some reason why this would not happen?

 

[Alceste]

Well, there are over 6 billion people in 4,000 years and we usually produce 1 or 2 a year approximately. Maybe a scientist will tell us how often and how many a lizard produces.

Auto's point is that to have 5000 species descended from a single pair of lizards, we'd be seeing a brand new species every year. It's simple math - it has nothing to do with how many offspring a pair of lizards can produce.

What your proposition means (5000 species of lizard in 4000 years) is that somewhere in the world, more than once a year, a pair of lizards gives birth to an entirely different species of lizard - a whole generation of organisms that can not reproduce with the previous generation, and can only reproduce with each other.

Do you think this is what we see?

 

[Man of Faith]

Do you see why? If this process goes on, all the time, inexorably, with populations gradually changing, after a long time, they will have diverged that much from their ancestral species--enough to be classified as an order.

Do you have some reason why this would not happen?

They way I saw it is if the process goes on, we will have more lizards.

 

[Autodidact]

I have the Biblical creation account which is not compatible with the ToE. So if I know from experience that God exists, and I cannot know from experience that common ancestry is true, which one should I go with?

WE ALL AGREE THAT GOD EXISTS. THAT'S NOT IN QUESTION. WE'RE NOT ARGUING ABOUT THAT. Why is this concept so difficult for you to understand. We do not have two theories: God and evolution. We're all agreeing on God, and the two hypotheses are: evolution and magic poofing. And the answer is that you should go with the one that the evidence supports. duh.