The ToE and common ancestry of all life forms did not come from looking at the evidence

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

I have no theory about how life evolved, I just go by what the Bible says, which is animals and man reproduce after their own kind, which is what we observe also.

This response leads me to two questions:
What exactly defines a "kind"? This is a term that is not used anywhere in science.

And secondly... if you go by what the bible says then you should have some "idea" about what happened and how. What makes you think the Bible is correct? There should be a reason for that.

 

[Man of Faith]

While you are pondering here is some additional facts for your consideration.

:sorry1: But it is what it is.

Yes I already know about that, if he did wrong then he needs to pay. This validates the Christian teachings that all sin and fall short. That's why I keep my eyes and focus on Jesus, the only person that never sinned. Let's hope his son picks up where he left off, but pays his taxes. I pray and hope God uses kent in jail for furtherance of his kingdom.

 

[Man of Faith]

This response leads me to two questions:
What exactly defines a "kind"? This is a term that is not used anywhere in science.

And secondly... if you go by what the bible says then you should have some "idea" about what happened and how. What makes you think the Bible is correct? There should be a reason for that.

Kind means same kind of animal and science needs to find out where it belongs. I do have an idea about what happened, it says in the Bible that God spoke the world into existence in 6 ordinary days and on the 7th he rested.

 

[Gunfingers]

bleepmorp means same bleepmorp of animal...

See how that's still meaningless?

And scientific classifications have already been done. They've overwhelmingly supported common descent. "Kind" is even more nebulous than "species" (another diffcult term to define specifically). All animals in a species are the same species, all plants in the same genera are the same genera, all eukaryotes are in the eukaryote domain. At what stage do you say they're the same kind?

The bible says that creatures reproduce after their own kind, right? That loosely matches the definition of species. That means that dogs and wolves can't be of the same kind, as they can't produce viable offspring. Nor can horses and donkeys. We're right back to Noah taking millions of critters.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Yes I already know about that, if he did wrong then he needs to pay. This validates the Christian teachings that all sin and fall short. That's why I keep my eyes and focus on Jesus, the only person that never sinned. Let's hope his son picks up where he left off, but pays his taxes. I pray and hope God uses kent in jail for furtherance of his kingdom.

Do you not think that if he lied to the government, and he lied about his academic degrees, that he would lie about science?

By the way, if the son follows in his father's footsteps, he'll end up in jail, too.

I don't know why lying about an academic degree isn't taken seriously. It does mean that real scholars won't talk to you, read your work, or give you a job... I guess that is penalty enough... People like Kent should be fined extraordinary amounts of money to keep them from leading others astray...

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Thank you, MoF, that was the graphic I was looking for earlier. If you can find it bigger, that would be great.

So, yes, this is the diagram of the HoK: rather than one big tree, a lot of separate trees. Interestingly, this is NOT what we observe. Rather, every living thing has been logically, objectively, classified into a single nested hierarchy, or tree of life.

Here ya go....

http://www.highplains.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=31&d=1213589301

 

[MSizer]

I pray and hope God uses kent in jail for furtherance of his kingdom.

I pray and hope his cell mate uses kent in jail.

 

[MSizer]

And Michael Behe, the incredible mr. "irreducible complexity of the flagela motor" star who put his hand on the bible and swore before jury and god that he would tell the truth. So is a man who lies with his hand on the bible before god is worth trusting too?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I pray and hope his cell mate uses kent in jail.

He can use his diplomas from the paper mills to decorate his cell.

 

[Autodidact]

Here ya go....

http://www.highplains.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=31&d=1213589301

Thanks, Penguin:

According to MoF, this schema represents part of the totality of all organisms, how much we don't know. It incudes one species (Homo sapiens), two families of mammals (cats and dogs), part of a kingdom (protozoa) and an entire domain (bacteria) comprising millions of phylla, classes, orders, families, not to mention species. Thus we see that whatever a "kind" is, it doesn't correlate to any recognized level in biological cladistics.

It seems most closely to track the classification system of a 5-year old, with doggies, kitties, cows, fish, birdies and bugs each a different kind.

Under this system, therefore, we should find fossils of, at a minumum, members of the cat and dog families at the lowest, oldest level of rock strata in which fossils are found. And we don't. Never. Not once. We find fossils on these level, of tiny exoskeletons of primitive invertebrates, just as ToE predicts, but never, ever, a single bunny or horsie. Not once. The hypothesis is now discredited.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

Kind means same kind of animal and science needs to find out where it belongs. I do have an idea about what happened, it says in the Bible that God spoke the world into existence in 6 ordinary days and on the 7th he rested.

Really? I find that passing strange. I did when I was 7. It was one of the first little "problems" I had with the theology.

Please do explain MoF WHY an omni-everything being, Creator of the universe all powerful, etc, etc, etc, NEEDS to rest. From what pray tell? What was expended by your god that needs to be replaced? If he had kept working would have worked himself to death? If not then just what would happen if he kept working? If he needs to rest does does he also need to sleep? Or eat? Can he be obese? Or have heart problems? Diabetes?

 

[Man of Faith]

Really? I find that passing strange. I did when I was 7. It was one of the first little "problems" I had with the theology.

Please do explain MoF WHY an omni-everything being, Creator of the universe all powerful, etc, etc, etc, NEEDS to rest. From what pray tell? What was expended by your god that needs to be replaced? If he had kept working would have worked himself to death? If not then just what would happen if he kept working? If he needs to rest does does he also need to sleep? Or eat? Can he be obese? Or have heart problems? Diabetes?

He did it as an example for us, if you would have stuck with your faith, you could be learning these things also.

Exodus 20:8 "Remember to observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.9 You have six days each week for your ordinary work,10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath day of rest dedicated to the LORD your God. On that day no one in your household may do any work. This includes you, your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, your livestock, and any foreigners living among you.11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them; but on the seventh day he rested. That is why the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

He did it as an example for us, if you would have stuck with your faith, you could be learning these things also.

Exodus 20:8 "Remember to observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.9 You have six days each week for your ordinary work,10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath day of rest dedicated to the LORD your God. On that day no one in your household may do any work. This includes you, your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, your livestock, and any foreigners living among you.11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them; but on the seventh day he rested. That is why the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy.

If - IF - that was the purpose why didn't he SAY SO?

 

[tumbleweed41]

I have no theory about how life evolved, I just go by what the Bible says, which is animals and man reproduce after their own kind,

Yet you cannot define kind. Creationists have identified kinds with everything from species to entire kingdoms. By the narrower definitions, variation to new kinds has occurred. By the broader definitions, we would not expect to see it in historical time.

which is what we observe also.

Actually, what we observe is changes from one so called 'kind' to another.
For example, Helacyton gartleri shows one example of change that would be hard to call anything other than a change in 'kind'. It is an amoeba-like life form that came from a human (Van Valen and Maoirana 1991; evolved from a carcinoma, it spreads by taking over other laboratory cell cultures).
Source

 

[Man of Faith]

Yet you cannot define kind. Creationists have identified kinds with everything from species to entire kingdoms. By the narrower definitions, variation to new kinds has occurred. By the broader definitions, we would not expect to see it in historical time.



Actually, what we observe is changes from one so called 'kind' to another.
For example, Helacyton gartleri shows one example of change that would be hard to call anything other than a change in 'kind'. It is an amoeba-like life form that came from a human (Van Valen and Maoirana 1991; evolved from a carcinoma, it spreads by taking over other laboratory cell cultures).
Source

I prefer my sources over your sources.

"These in no way qualify as a new kind of orgaism, nor are HeLa cells "a wild unicellular life form." HeLa cells have been artificially kept alive for years in lab cultures. They are still human cells, but because of their disease, scientists have been able to keep them living in lab cultures."

http://creationwiki.org/(Talk.Origins)_Range_of_variation_is_limited_within_kinds

 

[MSizer]

I prefer my sources over your sources.

Exactly, and that's the whole problem. You're chosing to espouse what pleases you most. Unlike most of us, who let the evidence lead us step by step to the truth.

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

Kind means same kind of animal and science needs to find out where it belongs.

This doesn't really answer my question.
Science doesnt use the word "kind".
You (and/or the bible) use it. So I asked what exactly constitutes a "kind". I would like to ask the question again to you in order for me to understand a bit better.

I do have an idea about what happened,...

From what i see so far you tell me that you believe something you don't really know about? That sounds a bit strange to me. I would have expected that you had some explanatory model of how things happened.

... it says in the Bible that God spoke the world into existence in 6 ordinary days and on the 7th he rested.

And what is it that makes you believe that this account is credible? I would suppose you have some kind of evidence that allows you to assert that this statement you read out of the bible corresponds to reality.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

MoF we have already given you examples of evolution in the lab within a matter of months. We have given you examples of new species and your only response is to say they are the same "kind." But you don't know WHAT a "kind" is.

And now today you say it is up to godless science to find out.

FLASH! This just in. Science HAS a classification system and it WORKS. There is a pattern in living organisms. There is commonalty. It is possible to predict some features of ANY new organisms we may find.

And all you have is an ancient myth full of errors and barbarity and just plain nonsense. But somehow someday the science you hate is going to make it all come together.

 

[Autodidact]

Knock, knock, Man of Faith--this thread is supposed to be about evidence, remember? That stuff I'm presenting in great heaping gobs and that you're totally ignoring? Do you have any evidence in support of your hypothesis? What do you have to say about the overwhelming evidence that I've presented that your hypothesis is incorrect? As well as the first of many posts laying out just a small fraction of the evidence in favor of ToE? I really don't want to waste my time if you're not going to engage the material. Because I have a lot more to come. Should I bother?

Or, in reality, does your world view have absolutely nothing to do with the evidence, is actually maintained despite the evidence? Do you care a shred about evidence? Or are you just another creationist liar-head?

 

[tumbleweed41]

I prefer my sources over your sources.

Noticed your source provides no citations from any Biologists. Nor has their claim been peer reviewed.
Comprehensive and Definitive Molecular Cytogenetic Characterization of HeLa Cells by Spectral Karyotyping -- Macville et al. 59 (1): 141 -- Cancer Research
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2164/7/166

Remember that next time you go to see the doctor and need lab work done. Tell them you want the tests done through unqualified speculation, rather than by Lab Technicians trained in aspects of cellular biology.

(Hint: they are lying to you again, it is easy to say "wrong!!", but a lot harder to back up your claims without evidence. Especially when they cling to the misinterpretation of the Laws of Thermodynamics.)