The tree of knowledge..............

[Quiddity]

Jeezh! Be difficult then.

By partaking of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, Adam and Even took the first step towards becoming like their Father in Heaven. Notice that in Genesis 3:22, the Lord says, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil..." By remaining in a state of innocence forever, as they would have done had they not chosen to eat of the forbidden fruit, they would never had known the difference between good and evil, or any of the myriad of opposites that lead to progression. I'm not sure what the Catholic perspective is, but if you think God really wanted Adam and Eve to remain in the Garden forever, why do you believe He allowed Satan to tempt them? He could have simply placed the Tree in the Garden and told them not to touch it. Without someone to tempt them, they might actually have never eaten from it. Obviously, the choice was God's; Satan would not have even been there had God not allowed it. I can't imagine you think believe God to be so naive that He didn't know what was going to ultimately happen or that He was powerless to prevent it.

So now will you answer my questions?

I think my answers to nutshell should help you see where I am coming from. Our biggest beef with such an interpretation is that God had to of needed this scenerio to absolutely happen. Making free will pretty much void at that point. Either Adam and Eve had the choice or God did. We believe Adam and Eve had it.

 

[spacemonkey]

That's nice, but you didn't answer my question.

I beg your bardon, but I did. I pointed out the fact that there are more then one story in the history of the world that points to the fact that knowledge and technology had to be "stolen" from god and given to man. There is the account in the Bible and the Greek Prometheus/Pandora story I have already mentioned, but the Norse giant Loki and the Sumerian hero Gilgamesh where also said to have brought "fire" or kowledge to mankind to the displeasure of the gods. So I'm going to say that there has to be something to these stories. It is knowledge that sets us apart from the other animals.

 

[Katzpur]

I would like to know why the serpent is considerd to be Satan and/or Lucifer since there is no mention of it except perhaps in the LDS version. And if remember correctly the serpent was cursed to crawl on his stomach forever, which wouldn't make any since for it to be Satan since he apparently sufferd from no such curse in the rest of the bible.

As far as I know, the Latter-day Saints are not alone in believing that Satan is the same indivual as Lucifer. This doctrine comes from Revelation 12:7-9. "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." As to whether "the serpent" was literally Satan or just one of the many who were cast out of heaven with him when he (as the pre-mortal Lucifer) waged war against his Father in Heaven is really not particularly important. Who or whatever the serpent was, he/it was obviously an agent of Satan, if not Satan himself.

 

[Quiddity]

I beg your bardon, but I did. I pointed out the fact that there are more then one story in the history of the world that points to the fact that knowledge and technology had to be "stolen" from god and given to man. There is the account in the Bible and the Greek Prometheus/Pandora story I have already mentioned, but the Norse giant Loki and the Sumerian hero Gilgamesh where also said to have brought "fire" or kowledge to mankind to the displeasure of the gods. So I'm going to say that there has to be something to these stories. It is knowledge that sets us apart from the other animals.

No you didn't, but that's ok. If something had to be "stolen" for us to grow, then my spidey sense tell me that we were created imperfect. That right?

 

[spacemonkey]

Who or whatever the serpent was, he/it was obviously an agent of Satan, if not Satan himself.

The serpent is the hero in this story, it is he that helps to lead mankind closer to Gnosis and a reunion with the True God, not the creator of our prison.

 

[spacemonkey]

No you didn't, but that's ok. If something had to be "stolen" for us to grow, then my spidey sense tell me that we were created imperfect. That right?

That's EXACTLY right, because we were created by a flawed being.

 

[Quiddity]

That's EXACTLY right, because we were created by a flawed being.

I see, well that's deffinately where we disagree. I do think we were created perfect along with a perfect Creator.

 

[Katzpur]

That is a deep metaphysical question. Since God is not bound by time, how can I begin to answer this.

I know, everything is a deep metaphysical question to you guys. In Revelation 13:8, Jesus is referred to as "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." God knew what was going to happen long before Adam and Eve first set foot in Eden, and He knew we were all going to need a Savior. Jesus' role as our Redeemer was established long before the creation.

More importantly (at least to me) is if God works out his plan independent of humans? In other words, does he need particular people for a plan? Or are His plans completely integrated into specific people? Making Him NEED us.

I don't think he does NEED us. His plan will come about whether Adam and Even ate from the tree or not.

I'm going to hold off on this until you explain exactly what you believe God's plan was. Right now, I'm thinking that God's Plan for us does not and cannot exist independently of us. But if you can show me how I'm wrong, I'm certainly open to hear what you have to say on the subject.

 

[spacemonkey]

You are still clinging to the notion that the "creator" and the True God are the same being when clearly they are not. The god of the OT is jealous, wrathfull, demands sacrafice, and inflects punishment. The True God, the one preached about by Jesus, is kind, loving, fogiving, and sacrafices for us. It is the work of this Demiurge (craftsman) that has equated himself as Jesus's father in order to decieve us.

 

[Quiddity]

I know, everything is a deep metaphysical question to you guys.

Nah, it's just that we are ok with saying "we don't exactly know" instead of trying to explain such complex things as the Trinity... But it's deffinately a good conversation stopper.

In Revelation 13:8, Jesus is referred to as "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." God knew what was going to happen long before Adam and Eve first set foot in Eden, and He knew we were all going to need a Savior. Jesus' role as our Redeemer was established long before the creation.
I'm going to hold off on this until you explain exactly what you believe God's plan was. Right now, I'm thinking that God's Plan for us does not and cannot exist independently of us. But if you can show me how I'm wrong, I'm certainly open to hear what you have to say on the subject.

Except if it's complex and metaphysical...
I didn't say independently of us, but rather independently of the human will (on the individual level). As I told nutshell, God was not 100% depending on us eating from the tree. If He was, then the gift of free will becomes void at that point. What He knew was that our free will could gravitate toward sin.

 

[Quiddity]

You are still clinging to the notion that the "creator" and the True God are the same being when clearly they are not.

Oh boy.....

 

[Katzpur]

lol

DISCLAIMER: I'm not sure this post will adhere to LDS doctrine. It is my interpretation and Katz or others are free to comment and/or correct me.

There was no reproducing for two reasons and it has little to nothing to do with the actual fruit on the tree:

1. They were physically unable to have sex.
Adam and Eve had what I like to think of as transitional bodies. The bodies were not designed to grow old and die, but they also weren't mature bodies capable of sexual reproduction. After they ate the fruit, the physical world changed. Part of that change was Adam and Eve's bodies becoming mortal. They would grow old and die. Another change was that they would now be able to have sex and reproduce.

2. They were unable to have sex for psychological reasons.
I don't know if "psychological" is the right word to use here, but I'm going to use it so hang with me. Adam and Eve, pre-fruiting, were in a state of innocence. They were like children. They had limited knowledge of right/wrong, good/evil, pleasure/pain, etc. I believe their knowledge of sex was limited as well. This may be connected with their physical state. After all, if, at this point, they are unable to have sexual relations physically, it may well be possible that sexual urges and thoughts aren't even crossing their minds.

My understanding is more or less along the same lines as yours, Nutshell. The Bible makes specifically points out that Adam and Eve didn't even realize that they were naked until after the atey the forbidden fruit. Then it was a case of, "Oh my gosh! Here comes God! I'm naked!" They'd been in constant contact with GOd before then and their nakedness hadn't bothered them in the slightest. Furthermore, it was not until after they were cast out of the Garden that any mention is made of their having sexual relations.

To me, their complete lack of awareness of their nakedness is clearly a reference to their state of sexual innocence. I'm not convinced that they were incapable of having sex, but I simply don't think it would have even occurred to them to do so. If Adam was unaware that He was naked, He obviously was not aroused by Eve's nakedness. They were, in that respect, like two sexually immature children.

Until they ate of the forbidden fruit, they had human bodies, but were not subject to death. I believe it is our Church's position that the ability to die (physically) and the ability to create new life are intrinsically linked. That makes sense to me, whether it will to any non-LDS person or not. When they ate forbidden fruit, their bodies became subject to disease, decay and death. They also became sexually aware and were able to fulfill the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth.

 

[nutshell]

Nah, it's just that we are ok with saying "we don't exactly know" instead of trying to explain such complex things as the Trinity... But it's deffinately a good conversation stopper.

Except it it's complex and metaphysical...
I didn't say independently of us, but rather independently of the human will (on the individual level). As I told nutshell, God was not 100% depending on us eating from the tree. If He was, then the gift of free will becomes void at that point. What He knew was that our free will could gravitate toward sin.

Just because God knew what we would choose did not mean we didn't have that choice to make for ourselves.

It's like the Matrix movies (and i'm sorry i'm bringing in this analogy and i hope you've seen all the movies). At one point, the Oracle tells Neo, "You're not here to make the choice, you're here to understand why you made the choice." This is NOT a perfect example, but I think it goes to explaining how we have free will when God may know everything already. God may know what our choices will be, suggesting we don't have free will, yet the journey of making these choices and understandign why we make them is how we learn and grow and become more like God.

 

[Katzpur]

The serpent is the hero in this story, it is he that helps to lead mankind closer to Gnosis and a reunion with the True God, not the creator of our prison.

I don't believe the serpent is the hero. I believe Adam and Eve were the heros. They were the ones who put God's plan into action.

 

[gnostic]

If they were capable of it, why didn't they do so before they ate the fruit?

Well, it may have been only a few day since they were created and alive. A couple of day may have pass in that time before they ate the fruit.

It didn't mean they had to mate immediately, nutshell.

If they were only just create, what would you do in their situation? Would you go have sex immediately? Or would you explore the Garden first?

For me, I would be more curious about my environment. They didn't have to began reproducing immediately, and God didn't command them to start right then and there. All he did was gave them a blessing to multiply, but he didn't give any specific time or date to do so.

That's a logical speculation to why they didn't mate as soon as they saw one another. Your speculation doesn't account for how much time had passed between the time of their creation and when they ate the fruit.

At the very least, 2 days have passed. Notice that I had use the word "least"; because we really don't know. But if it did happen in two days, it would have to happen after the 7th Day of Creation, don't you think?

Think of this. God had promise a son to Abraham and Sarah, but did God give a son to Abraham from Sarah immediately? Abraham left Mesopotamia when he was 75, but God's revelation about pending birth of Issac wasn't reveal until he was 100.

So it wasn't necessary for Adam and Eve to begin reproducing before their expulsion from the Garden, but they did have the capability to do so before they ate the fruit.

 

[Quiddity]

Just because God knew what we would choose did not mean we didn't have that choice to make for ourselves.

The thing is that if I'm understanding you correctly, you're not only saying that God knew, but that he was counting on it to happen. That makes a huge difference with plenty of doctrinal implications.

If he was counting on it, where is the choice?

 

[spacemonkey]

Just because God knew what we would choose did not mean we didn't have that choice to make for ourselves.

It's like the Matrix movies (and i'm sorry i'm bringing in this analogy and i hope you've seen all the movies). At one point, the Oracle tells Neo, "You're not here to make the choice, you're here to understand why you made the choice." This is NOT a perfect example, but I think it goes to explaining how we have free will when God may know everything already. God may know what our choices will be, suggesting we don't have free will, yet the journey of making these choices and understandign why we make them is how we learn and grow and become more like God.

Do you know you just brought up one of the most heavely gnostic themed movies ever made, I LOVE IT!!!

 

[nutshell]

Well, it may have been only a few day since they were created and alive. A couple of day may have pass in that time before they ate the fruit.

It didn't mean they had to mate immediately, nutshell.

If they were only just create, what would you do in their situation? Would you go have sex immediately? Or would you explore the Garden first?

For me, I would be more curious about my environment. They didn't have to began reproducing immediately, and God didn't command them to start right then and there. All he did was gave them a blessing to multiply, but he didn't give any specific time or date to do so.

That's a logical speculation to why they didn't mate as soon as they saw one another. Your speculation doesn't account for how much time had passed between the time of their creation and when they ate the fruit.

At the very least, 2 days have passed. Notice that I had use the word "least"; because we really don't know. But if it did happen in two days, it would have to happen after the 7th Day of Creation, don't you think?

Think of this. God had promise a son to Abraham and Sarah, but did God give a son to Abraham from Sarah immediately? Abraham left Mesopotamia when he was 75, but God's revelation about pending birth of Issac wasn't reveal until he was 100.

So it wasn't necessary for Adam and Eve to begin reproducing before their expulsion from the Garden, but they did have the capability to do so before they ate the fruit.

Well, I do disagree. For one thing, we don't know how long they were in the Garden...2 days or a millenia...we don't know, IMO.

One flaw I find in your example of Abraham and Sarah is that just because she did not conceive for 25 years does not mean they weren't having intercourse during this time. I do not believe Adam/Eve were capable of intercourse either for physical and/or mental reasons.

 

[nutshell]

Do you know you just brought up one of the most heavely gnostic themed movies ever made, I LOVE IT!!!

Happy to oblige.

Of course, the Zionists believe it's their movie too.

And I'm just a geek that likes sweet sci-fi action flicks.

 

[Katzpur]

I think my answers to nutshell should help you see where I am coming from. Our biggest beef with such an interpretation is that God had to of needed this scenerio to absolutely happen. Making free will pretty much void at that point. Either Adam and Eve had the choice or God did. We believe Adam and Eve had it.

I'm sorry, Victor. Perhaps you feel as if you explained your position adequately, but I'm still confused. Here's what I want to know:

If you think God really wanted Adam and Eve to remain in the Garden forever, why do you believe He allowed Satan to tempt them? He could have simply placed the Tree in the Garden and told them not to touch it. Seriously, if He had wanted them to remain in Eden forever, don't you think He could have made it a tad easier for them? Satan was only there because God allowed it. I can't imagine you think believe God to be so naive that He didn't know what was going to ultimately happen or that He was powerless to prevent it. It's not a case of God needing a particular scenario to happen. He knew Adam and Eve perfectly. They were free to choose whether to obey or not. His knowledge of what they would do in any given set of circumstances is beside the point. He knew what was going to happen but did not cause it to happen. They caused it to happen.