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The Trinity, considering it's biblical, why then......

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
This kind of 'binatarian' heresy, which the Talmudic Rabbis fought against as a violation of monotheism, is thought by many scholars to lie at the roots of the New Testament 'high christology' (with Jesus assuming the role other heretical Jews like Aher gave to 'Metatron') and it is a separate matter from later Nicene Trinitarianism (which relied upon Greek philosophical categories of ontology, in part, for its articulation), which had no analogue in Second Temple Judaism.
I agree the concept of second (but lesser) God was already known among Jewish mystics and philosophers when Christianity started. I also agree it was a direct influence when NT was written. But this doesn't mean it was also originally taught by Jesus and the twelve. Was it just ascribed to Jesus? I mean NT wasn't written by Jesus or his illiterate desciples. It was written in Greek by some educated people.

I don't understand why was Metatron and the like considered a heresy. It's still monotheism with one very powerful servant.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Given the premise that the Bible is completely propagating the Trinity (if you believe it or not take it as a hypothetical premise for the sake of this question) why is it that the early church took almost 4 centuries to come up with the trinity as clearly stipulated as in the Athanasian Creed?

When this question or any similar question is asked what you see mostly is people trying to prove Jesus is God and quote the Bible. The question is not that and any objective person would be able to see it. Also, this question is asked with the premise given that the Bible is fully Trinitarian purely to be precise in the question.

"Qualis Pater, talis Filius, talis (et) Spiritus Sanctus.- Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost."

Anyone could look up the creed so there is no point cutting and pasting the whole thing, but do not forget that the trinity concerns the father, son, and the holy spirit, not just that Jesus is divine. So please consider the whole trinity, that all three are eternal, but not three Eternals but one eternal.

Thus, the question is "why is it that the early church took almost 4 centuries to come up with the trinity as clearly stipulated as in the Athanasian Creed"?

I believe the Trinity has always been around and is much clearer in the Nicene creed. I believe the Athenasian creed muddied it up a bit.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
The person who coined the term Trinity didn’t have the same concept of the trinity as we have now.

So it was not just a canonization that happened in 381. Before that the trinity existed, in a different form.

I believe it is difficult to prove what was taught that isn't in the Bible in the early days. For more than the Bible there have to be extra biblical writers and I am not familiar with early literature enough to say there wasn't any.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
I agree the concept of second (but lesser) God was already known among Jewish mystics and philosophers when Christianity started. I also agree it was a direct influence when NT was written. But this doesn't mean it was also originally taught by Jesus and the twelve. Was it just ascribed to Jesus? I mean NT wasn't written by Jesus or his illiterate desciples. It was written in Greek by some educated people.

Good point raised there, we honestly don't know for certain what Jesus taught about himself.

What scholars can say with confidence, however, is that soon after his death - in the 30s CE, in the circles of the people who had originally known him - the belief emerged that he was this "lesser YHWH" and that he had personally been pre-existent with God before creation as his agent of creation and revelation (in this, they associated him with the Wisdom &M referred to as God's creative agent in the sapiential literature, such as Proverbs, Sirach, Wisdom of Solomon).

The baptismal creed cited by Paul in 1 Corinthias 8:6 ("yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist") and the christophanic hymn in Philippians 2:6-11 ("who, though he [Jesus] was in the form of God, who did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness") are 'quoted' by Paul as pre-existent traditions that were already known to his audience in the 50s CE (i.e. they needed no elaboration, their truth claims are just presipposed), so scholars such as Hurtado, Ehrman, Bauckham, Fletcher-Louis and Boyarin are convinced that this belief in Jesus's exaltation/glorification to the heavenly realm and corresponding pre-existent divinity, had been taught by the early church soon after Jesus's death.

Why this belief about his status emerged in the circles of those who had actually known him - and taught Paul - is disputed. Hurtado thinks it stemmed from post-resurrection 'mystical experiences' like that attributed to the deacon Stephen in Acts 7:55-56 ("But filled with the Holy Spirit, he gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look,” he said, “I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”)

There is a binitarian formula to all of these early 'visions' and we know from Rabbinic literature in the Talmud that other Jews of this period - including a Rabbi of note, Elisha ben Abuyah (born in Jerusalem sometime before 70 CE) - also had visions of the divine merkabah (throne) in which they reportedly claimed to see 'two divine figures' (the God of Israel and his 'agent', in ben Abuyah's case 'Metatron', the lesser YHWH seated beside him on a throne) and thus fell into a form of Judaism that the Rabbis regarded as "heretical".

Consider Hagiga 15a in the Babylonian Talmud, which explains how this Rabbi Elisha (referred to disparagingly as 'aher' the "outcast" for his lapse into binitarian heresy):


Four men entered the pardesBen Azzai, Ben Zoma, Acher [that is, Elisha], and Rabbi Akiva..Aher chopped down the shoots’: Of him the verse says, “Do not let your mouth cause your flesh to sin” (Ecclesiastes 5:5). What does this mean? He saw that Metatron had been given permission [תושר] to sit and write the good deeds of Israel. He said, but it is taught that on high there will be no sitting, no conflict, no “back,” and no tiredness! Perhaps, G-d forbid, there are two powers [יתשתויושר]!

So, we know that his 'merkabah mysticism' ultimately led him to join one of these binitarian Jewish strains in Second Temple Judaism - specifically the Enochic-Metatron one that appears to have produced the Similtudes of Enoch and some of the early Hekhalot literature.

This same binitarian theology is attested in a number of the Dead Sea Scroll texts from Qumran dating from the first century BCE, such as the Melchizedek scroll (11q13) and the Self-Glorification Hymn. These were earlier Jewish sectarians unrelated to the strain/sect that produced the Enochic-Metatron texts. So there seems to have been quite a few of them across a wide geographical spread, with early Christianity being yet another of these 'sects' to have emerged in the Second Temple era (albeit, ultimately, by far the most successful and enduring in the long-term).
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
I believe the Trinity has always been around and is much clearer in the Nicene creed. I believe the Athenasian creed muddied it up a bit.

Well brother, this topic was not meant to be a belief matter. It was meant to be historical. And the question is clear I think in the OP.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I believe it is difficult to prove what was taught that isn't in the Bible in the early days. For more than the Bible there have to be extra biblical writers and I am not familiar with early literature enough to say there wasn't any.

Actually brother, this topic was opened with the premise that the Bible teaches the trinity as a given foundation (even if its true or not). This is for knowledge, not to prove our faiths false or true. Well, I tried to explain it but it seems like the OP is not clear enough.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
Thats interesting. What are the primary sources you are referring to?
Book of Enoch has already been mentioned.
Some prophetic visions in OT.
Philo of Alexandria.
Justin Martyr.
An old Midrash (Gen. R.):

Thou hast formed me behind and before' (Psalms 139:5) is to be explained 'before the first and after the last day of Creation.' For it is said, 'And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters,' meaning the spirit of the Messiah ["the spirit of Adam" in the parallel passage, Midr. Teh. to cxxxix. 5; both readings are essentially the same], of whom it is said (Isaiah 11:2), 'And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him.'​
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Book of Enoch has already been mentioned.
Some prophetic visions in OT.
Philo of Alexandria.
Justin Martyr.
An old Midrash (Gen. R.):

Thou hast formed me behind and before' (Psalms 139:5) is to be explained 'before the first and after the last day of Creation.' For it is said, 'And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters,' meaning the spirit of the Messiah ["the spirit of Adam" in the parallel passage, Midr. Teh. to cxxxix. 5; both readings are essentially the same], of whom it is said (Isaiah 11:2), 'And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him.'​

Lesser God?

Nothing in there brother.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
Lesser God?

Nothing in there brother.
"Now the image of God is the Word, by which all the world was made" (Philo: The special Laws I, ch. XVI)

"(62) Why is it that he speaks as if of some other god, saying that he made man after the image of God, and not that he made him after his own image? (#Ge 9:6). Very appropriately and without any falsehood was this oracular sentence uttered by God, for no mortal thing could have been formed on the similitude of the supreme Father of the universe, but only after the pattern of the second deity, who is the Word of the supreme Being..." (Philo: Questions and answers on Genesis II)

(emphasis added)
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
if you read with discernment..yes that would be Jesus

Where could I read with "discernment" Jewish mystics believing in a lesser God who is Jesus? Jewish mystics was the context of the question. That was nothing about Jesus.

Also, are you saying Jesus is a lesser God? I thought the trinity is where Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are coeternal, coequal. So no one is lesser. This was the whole point of all of those councils in the 4th entry and the canonization of the trinity.
 

VoidoftheSun

Necessary Heretical, Fundamentally Orthodox
You're absolutely correct about the feminine personification of Divine Wisdom (as the amanuensis and emanation of God's presence on earth or within people) in the sapiential texts of pre-Christian Judaism, namely Chokmâh rendered into Greek as Sophia.

This is also present in most religions in different forms (including even Islam).
I'm a big fan of the Divine Feminine myself though lol
 

VoidoftheSun

Necessary Heretical, Fundamentally Orthodox
Yes, I understand all that. My only real point here is that discussion of a trinity was occurring for many years.

Correction, the "Trinity" is a certain doctrine of interpretation of the concepts of this "Father/Son/Holy Spirit". It does not equal the concept of a "Father/Son/Holy Spirit".

Trinity is a set "orthodox" doctrine of the way the three are interpreted, as to uphold the concept of a man being simultaneously 100% God and 100% human at the same time.
This is supposedly reconciled (though it causes even more problems than the initial problem) by professing to the "Father/Son/Holy Spirit" to being all equally God but not identical to each other.

Other interpretations (such as that God is simply existing in three states, which is modalism) are all heresies that are rejected (in principle at least) by Catholicism and most of Protestantism (with wiggle room from some more infamous denominations) - but to believe such things is to categorically disbelieve in the Trinity, as the Trinity was formulated in direct opposition to such beliefs.

The Trinity is basically there to try and apologetically and (fallaciously) philosophically defend God as both fully-God and fully-Human. The necessity of this for Christians is especially amplified by their specific salvation narrative, which would not work (according to their doctrines) be possible otherwise.

Basically the Trinity is a process-doctrine, one that is the final concede after struggling to reconcile how Jesus and YHWH could be the same thing (something still left unanswered, ironically). This problem is infamously especially typified by the case of Marcion, but is also inhibited among other early forms of post-Jewish Christianity (basically in streams of Christianity coming from Paulian and Peterian communities instead of the Jewish, Jamesian communities).

The dividing line was very very powerful in the chaos it created.

If mainstream Christianity were to admit to believing in three deities (tritheism), as Mormons generally do, then they would basically obliterate their entire religion; which is obviously not something they are willing to even tease.
On the other hand there is the other answer, being from the stream of Marcion and from later forms of Gnosticism like Sethianism - which proposes that Jesus was the son of the "higher-God" instead of YHWH (usually set in a stark opposition to Judaism, sometimes with quite antisemitic traits, I may add).


Nonetheless, the Trinity itself is a strict definition of relation, it is not the words "Father/Son/Spirit" alone. I hope you do realize that.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
"Now the image of God is the Word, by which all the world was made" (Philo: The special Laws I, ch. XVI)

"(62) Why is it that he speaks as if of some other god, saying that he made man after the image of God, and not that he made him after his own image? (#Ge 9:6). Very appropriately and without any falsehood was this oracular sentence uttered by God, for no mortal thing could have been formed on the similitude of the supreme Father of the universe, but only after the pattern of the second deity, who is the Word of the supreme Being..." (Philo: Questions and answers on Genesis II)

(emphasis added)

Can you explain how you believe that Philo was a Jewish "Mystic"?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
This is also present in most religions in different forms (including even Islam).
I'm a big fan of the Divine Feminine myself though lol

I know this is off topic, but I would like to know the divine feminine in Islam. What is your material? This is just out of curiosity, I don't intend to deviate from the topic at hand.
 

VoidoftheSun

Necessary Heretical, Fundamentally Orthodox
I know this is off topic, but I would like to know the divine feminine in Islam. What is your material? This is just out of curiosity, I don't intend to deviate from the topic at hand.

A good but basic introduction would be this well-written article: Fatimah, Mary and the Divine Feminine in Islam

And keep in mind there is strict distinction between the divine feminine and committing Shirk, they are not synonymous. God itself in the Absolute is obviously beyond all likeness (Surah 16:74 etc). But in the intermediary sense, and in regards to many of the names of God, there is a feminine component, and both the Virgin Mary and Lady Fatimah, have significant intermediary roles.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
When the Bible says it is talking science and then science argues science non stop with his brother, then today like any other day you argue what is relative.

Realism….self first.

So if a human was teaching non relativity to explain relativity then it would quote, a reason for stating Father, son and Holy spirit...….if you were choosing to act against self.

An adult human being male....who is involved in human natural sex, to own his spirit given back to him as a son by a female. Yet in science he says the Holy spirit and spirit in the sciences are the gases...and that is MATHS.

Today you would ask the male conscious/overview of self are you married to your own science MATHS beliefs? The answer would be yes, I built AI robot to have sex with, use and know AI mind contact coercive human behaviours and own programming of it.....self possessed by all his evils.

If you had to tell a male O God the spirit gases of the stone planet sit in space the great deep, move as spirit bodies hot gas/cold gas upon the face of water to own light cooling, and form O pi....then you did...relative only to spiritual wisdom, not science use.

Science then attacked/burnt the atmosphere to obtain science radiation/radio wave conditions for burning converting of God mass, not converting in the natural radiation levels....as the fact of it....you changed cold deep space and cold radiation held spatial fusion. And named it MATH abomination.....for science mountain temples did it.

A father adult male is a father only if he owns the human creation of his baby male son. So is sexual.

An adult Father in science is a non sexual inventor theist....but is still that Father....what you have wrong.

O if you created pi to change into PHI fall out concepts by G value change to O value, then one third of the movement of heated light to cold light O says 3 is that value.

If you had to say to self 1, 2 and 3 says you are Holy, hence do not allow your conscious irradiated burning mind to believe self evil or Satan....then you did, as a teaching of conscious relativity and self purpose, if you cared to reason that the Church and the Healer biology sciences was never the occult brothers, as for the O mathematical sciences or against it _____flat Earth theories.

Before the Church Rome was involved in occult sciences, and they then withdrew knowing it was all fake and destruction. What you also keep ignoring.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
A good but basic introduction would be this well-written article: Fatimah, Mary and the Divine Feminine in Islam

And keep in mind there is strict distinction between the divine feminine and committing Shirk, they are not synonymous. God itself in the Absolute is obviously beyond all likeness (Surah 16:74 etc). But in the intermediary sense, and in regards to many of the names of God, there is a feminine component, and both the Virgin Mary and Lady Fatimah, have significant intermediary roles.

I do understand the idea of divine feminine (I don't know if you are a brother or a sister so I will for the moment refrain from calling you brother which is a habit). And I do agree with you on the divine feminine in this concept of the divine feminine.

When you say "feminine component" in the names of God or attributes rather, do you mean linguistically?

Yet I am interested in the concept you are proposing. See, the word Rahimi is in the masculine (which is just linguistics, doesn't mean its male or female every time, yet depends on the context). Its Majroorun. Excellent article and I really like the approach. Very soft and motherly. She says the word Ramin, but the word Rahimi is from the root word Rahama. With this she has I believe tried to create a female origin, yet the divine feminine is not female, it is the attributes of what we conceive as a "feminine", which is a motherly, nurturing, caring, warm, you know what I mean. All of those things we naturally attribute to a lady, be it mother or wife. Nevertheless, I agree and understand the whole point of the article.

Now I am interested in your comment "Virgin Mary and Lady Fatimah have intermediary roles. What do you mean by that?
 
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