The trinity debate - Is it monotheism?

[cataway]

None of this matters. Matthew didn’t write Matthew. But it is that Gospel we’re dealing with right now. Revelation does not inform Matthew.


No one else does either.

I disagree.

I disagree.

And they have a valid belief.


No. I’m not. JWs are a cult. Compared to the rest of Christianity, they are small in number. They hold beliefs different to the majority of the Faith. And they set themselves apart as having special knowledge and special election. That fits the dictionary definitions of “cult.” It also, IMO, fits other criteria which I won’t go into here.

From Merriam-Webster: : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious. : a system of religious beliefs and ritual. See? Cult.

just how many meeting of the JW's have you attended ?

 

[firedragon]

Er, no... If you follow what I said then you will understand the reason and purpose for all the events that took place and will take place regarding Christian belief in our God’s kingdom and the lesser kingdom of creation.

1. God created a world and put man in charge of it
2. There was only one man at the beginning and as HEAD therefore of mankind; Father; he would have been rewarded as KING over creation
3. But the man sinned and like Saul lost his place, ‘Because you have done this thing...‘
4. God’s word MUST come true...
5. God proposed that a blood sacrifice of an unblemished man should pay that price
   
6. So a solution had to be found for redemption
   
7. But because God knew things might not go right (we are, afterall, subject to errors of behaviour due to sin [of Adam]) He set a contingency plan in place (‘Seed of the woman’)
8. God gave man time to bring forth such a man but none was found and so God enacted his ‘disaster recovery’ contingency plan:
9. God created a SECOND ADAM... made in the same fashion as the first Adam, which satisfies his prophecy:
   • ‘Behold my Servant whom I have chosen, my beloved (Firstborn: Most beloved of the Father) on which I will pour out my spirit and he will bring justice to the nations’ (Isaiah 42:1)
10. So, as scriptures says:
    • ‘God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, [STRIKE]and through whom also he made the universe[/STRIKE]‘
11. This verse in Hebrews 1:1-2 is a summation and thus speaks of the Son after the effect: God appointed him heir of all things after he died, resurrected, and glorified in heaven. Scriptures might have Jesus saying, ‘All things have been given to me’ while he was still on earth but this is only by a surety: ‘I haven’t died yet but it’s a certainty so it’s as good as done!’
12. And the strikeout bits are CLEARLY TRINITARIAN ADDED as they make no sense if Jesus CREATED the world! How does one BECOME HEIR to what he created... HEIR!!? What does it mean to be HEIR?
13. The birth of Jesus was as this: An angel overshadowed a maiden and prompted the fertilisation of one of her eggs. This overshadowing meant that the seed of man (sperm) was not the enlivening element of the seed of the woman. Sin is, spiritually, in the seed of the man, and so sin is passed from man to man - human to human. But since the seed was enlivened by the Holy Spirit:
    • ‘The child to be born to you will be HOLY, and shall be called “Son of the God Most High”’
    • Is it strange to see Adam, created from dust of the earth (seed) and the enlivening spirit of God, being ALSO CALLED “Son of the God Most High” (Luke 3:38)
14. ...

(I have to go now but my thesis is incomplete (but nothing I haven’t said before nor will say in the future: truth doesn’t change!) but please show any objections to anything I wrote above... Use the numbered sections.. thanks!)

Thanks for another irrelevant post. Ciao.

 

[Soapy]

Thanks for another irrelevant post. Ciao.

I’m not sure what you mean! You claim what I say is a load of tosh and I offer you sectioned selections of it.

I ask you to show by numbered selection what you claim is wrong with what I say...

I was pleased to hear your comments and refutations so I could explain what is a cohesive feedback and self checking

 

[firedragon]

I’m not sure what you mean! You claim what I say is a load of tosh and I offer you sectioned selections of it.

I ask you to show by numbered selection what you claim is wrong with what I say...

I was pleased to hear your comments and refutations so I could explain what is a cohesive feedback and self checking

Its alright. You will come up with will more irrelevant comments. But just look at your two absolutely contradictory statements, in the same post, in concurrent sentences. I dont know whats wrong mate. Cheers. Have a great day.

When you start ‘understanding’ an untruth, you will get drawn into that untruth.

Sojouner screams that I am arguing against trinity because I dong understand it. Believe me, I DO understand ... that it is non-sequitor ...

 

[Soapy]

Its alright. You will come up with will more irrelevant comments. But just look at your two absolutely contradictory statements, in the same post, in concurrent sentences. I dont know whats wrong mate. Cheers. Have a great day.

Please explain what and where the two ‘contradictory statements’ are.

I’m saddened by your response here! I thought you had an idea of what you were talking about and hence your suggestion that I did not.

However, it appears that nothing of any substance is coming from you regarding your objections. This is not satisfactory.

I don’t understand how you claim what I say is untrue yet you offer no evidence of what you say is untrue.

I truly am intrigued as to which part and what part you say is untrue.

You agree that trinity is false and I show you the full truth yet you claim the truth is untruth.

You therefore crucify Christ and call YHWH God , The Father, a liar!

Edit: Did you mean this:

• “I was pleased to hear your comments and refutations so I could explain what is a cohesive feedback and self checking”

I was saying that I’m happy to hear what comments and refutations ... you have about what I say... about what I wrote... the context was always about hearing what you think was WRONG... so I’m sure you could have read between the line on that. It’s not contradictory except if you WANT TO READ IT THAT WAY. It was asking for your comments on what you disagreed with our symposium!

 

[firedragon]

Please explain what and where the two ‘contradictory statements’ are.

1. When you start ‘understanding’ an untruth, you will get drawn into that untruth.

2. Sojouner screams that I am arguing against trinity because I dong understand it. Believe me, I DO understand ... that it is non-sequitor ...

Those are your statements.

 

[Soapy]

1. When you start ‘understanding’ an untruth, you will get drawn into that untruth.

2. Sojouner screams that I am arguing against trinity because I dong understand it. Believe me, I DO understand ... that it is non-sequitor ...

Those are your statements.

Que? Where is the contradiction?

 

[Terry Sampson]

Those are your statements.

LOL!! Give it up.

 

[cataway]

Please explain what and where the two ‘contradictory statements’ are.

I’m saddened by your response here! I thought you had an idea of what you were talking about and hence your suggestion that I did not.

However, it appears that nothing of any substance is coming from you regarding your objections. This is not satisfactory.

I don’t understand how you claim what I say is untrue yet you offer no evidence of what you say is untrue.

I truly am intrigued as to which part and what part you say is untrue.

You agree that trinity is false and I show you the full truth yet you claim the truth is untruth.

You therefore crucify Christ and call YHWH God , The Father, a liar!

Edit: Did you mean this:

• “I was pleased to hear your comments and refutations so I could explain what is a cohesive feedback and self checking”

I was saying that I’m happy to hear what comments and refutations ... you have about what I say... about what I wrote... the context was always about hearing what you think was WRONG... so I’m sure you could have read between the line on that. It’s not contradictory except if you WANT TO READ IT THAT WAY. It was asking for your comments on what you disagreed with our symposium!

facts of the matter is you are tiring to support some false truths your self. i will stop short of saying you are lying because you likely dont know any better . i have noted you dont want to

 

[firedragon]

LOL!! Give it up.

Best advice I've got in a long time.

 

[Soapy]

I DO believe that trinity is False...
I do understand it to be false...

I proved it to be false over and over and in many ways.

What is wrong with understanding that something is FALSE...

What you wanted to do was to ‘UNDERSTAND’ trinity. That’s NOT the same thing.

The last person like yourself, I said, didn’t believe the trinity but like you, he started trying to see how trinity worked, what they believed, and go into the history of the creed and church forefathers (Teutulian, Ignatius, Aguilla, ect.).

This is what I mean by ‘UNDERSTANDING’. If you read the tripe that websites like CALM, and gotQuestions, you might well be persuaded towards trinity if you are unaware of the fallacies abounding in their commentaries. BibleHub is great but don’t read the commentaries there....that is: be ultra wary of the commentaries!

 

[sojourner]

just how many meeting of the JW's have you attended ?

Irrelevant.

 

[sojourner]

ah then just shooting from the hip. in the dark,dizzy and blindfolded .

JW.org to lead you into the light

Whatever.

 

[sojourner]

I proved it to be false over and over and in many ways

All you’ve done is put up misunderstandings and knocked them down.

 

[Soapy]

All you’ve done is put up misunderstandings and knocked them down.

You still here? Why is the truth so hateful to you?

Serious, can you answer scriptural questions without resorting to insulting the truth of it:

1. If Jesus and the Father are ‘One’, how does that form a Trinity?
   
2. If Jesus is God, king of heaven, why is his reward for dying for the sins of mankind, to sit on the spiritual throne of the human king, David, his human ancestor?
3. If the Holy Spirit is your ‘God’ then why is it never worshipped by anyone?

Just these three questions I ask you to answer with as integral as you can with Trinitarians it’s belief, thanks.

 

[sojourner]

You still here?

Who died and made you gatekeeper of the forum?

Why is the truth so hateful to you?

Truth is great; it’s your misrepresentation that’s vexing.

If Jesus and the Father are ‘One’, how does that form a Trinity?

Read the doctrine. It will tell you.

If Jesus is God, king of heaven, why is his reward for dying for the sins of mankind, to sit on the spiritual throne of the human king, David, his human ancestor?

This isn’t cogent to the Trinity.

If the Holy Spirit is your ‘God’ then why is it never worshipped by anyone?

Ever hear of Pentecost and Trinity Sunday? Both are feast days in the Church.

 

[Soapy]

Who died and made you gatekeeper of the forum?

Truth is great; it’s your misrepresentation that’s vexing.

Read the doctrine. It will tell you.

This isn’t cogent to the Trinity.

Ever hear of Pentecost and Trinity Sunday? Both are feast days in the Church.

Do you have scripture verses for your answers.

I thought the idea of a forum and debate was to express information... not to avoid answering... what’s the point of shirking as a defence against request for information...? If some one asked you to show the way to trinity truth, your response would be: ‘I haven’t got a clue - Look it up!’.

By the way, what is meant by ‘cogent to the trinity’?

And are you saying that the Holy Spirit was worshipped at Pentecost - and that you worship the Holy Spirit on feast days?

‘Feast Days’... what’s that, anyway?

Can you give me a few verses that state Holy Spirit worship!

Thanks.

 

[sojourner]

Do you have scripture verses for your answers

Are they required? AFAIK, sola scriptural is a heresy.

I thought the idea of a forum and debate was to express information... not to avoid answering... what’s the point of shirking as a defence against request for information...? If some one asked you to show the way to trinity truth, your response would be: ‘I haven’t got a clue - Look it up!’.

So far all you’ve done is misrepresent the doctrine. If you read it, you’d likely understand it better. Wouldn’t that help the debate along— to actually understand what you’re arguing against?

By the way, what is meant by ‘cogent to the trinity’?

Look it up. I’m not here to supply English lessons.

And are you saying that the Holy Spirit was worshipped at Pentecost - and that you worship the Holy Spirit on feast days?

We worship God on feast days — including the HS

‘Feast Days’... what’s that, anyway?

I thought I was debating with a Christian. And you don’t know what a feast day is? A feast day is a major day of celebration. Christmas, Easter, Pentecost, All Saints — all are feast days.

Can you give me a few verses that state Holy Spirit worship!

I can give you some teachings.

 

[cataway]

Christmas, Easter,?? that's not Christian

 

[Soapy]

Christmas, Easter,?? that's not Christian

As I said before, sojourner, doesn’t appear capable of answering even the most simplistic aspect of whatever it is he claims he believes...

I set out three questions directly to him but so far nothing scriptural has been received from him that would adjudicate the situation (provide a [biblical] settlement over this dispute).

I do wonder, though, if any trinitarian believer can answer a scriptural question without resorting to ‘doctrine’ - and even back up that ‘doctrine’ from the scriptures?

As you see, and may not agree with all that I’ve said, but isn’t it simple enough to outline what it is that is not agreed with (posts to both sojourner and Firedragon) seeing that I spilt up my thesis into ‘bite sized chunks and ask for comments on each chunk?

Firedragon has run off without even once saying what he disagreed with despite claiming to be anti-trinitarian - I thought he might have supported what I said, instead. Sorry to say, I feel he is JW... or some kind of Judaist as I’m feeling he doesn’t know the new testaments.

Can anyone outline, from beginning to end, what the scriptures is about; what the purpose of the major events concern, nutshell the main players; project the prophesies onto the embodiment of those prophesies:

• ‘God’s word made flesh!!
• Put flesh on the bones of the predicted events:
• a saviour was born: I will sent my servant who I chose, my beloved on whom I will put my spirit, and he will bring justice to the nations...(I wonder who this could be!)
• is God a servant? Does God put ‘his Holy Spirit on himself?

... And provide a conclusion to what is the ideology of God.

See, cataway, ask them these Questions and you will received lies... why, because their ideology is false and would not hold up under scrutiny: an impossible jigsaw puzzle because the pieces of their ideological jigsaw are from several different box sets.

See, I CAN do as I ask! I DID do as I ask! Why? Because the ideology I express is true... if it wasn’t then I couldn’t express it over and over and yet retain the overarching aspects... cohesive reasoning backed up by end-to-end supportive scriptures.

There are even repeated events that prophesy other events but it appears few, if any, here and elsewhere (I’ve been on many forums) even consider despite my outlining them. its no surprise, though! These prophesies counter trinity so why am I hoping that they will receive the word given to them (Jesus Christ, taught by God, gave them the word - and they killed him: Should I imagine I am better than Jesus Christ? ‘No one who thinks they love God comes to God unless God draws them to himself through his Christ, Jesus’ (long paraphrase for, ‘No-one comes to the Father except by me’)