The trinity debate - Is it monotheism?

[Soapy]

I understand you disagree that the Son/Jesus is God. Oh well.

syo, would you answer a few questions that I ask of you...

One question, one explanatory answer.

Another question, another explanatory answer?

 

[Terry Sampson]

You’re making hamburger of the Faith.

Feisty lil' bugger, wot?

 

[sojourner]

Sojouner screams that I am arguing against trinity because I dong understand it. Believe me, I DO understand ... that it is non-sequitor

1) This is projection. I have never screamed. But you yell a lot.
2) It’s clear from your posts that you don’t understand it, because you keep misrepresenting it.

When I ask trinity persons to show their truth I find it all disjointed... unexplained... just verses tossed together with no meaningful conclusion (non-sequitur!!)

I’ve suggested several times that you read it for yourself. For some odd reason, that seems to never happen.

What happens next is they cause a scene and call the moderators and “I” get thrown out of the forum - because the forums are predominantly run BY TRINITARIANS!!

Conspiracy theory. More likely, I believe it’s that your posts present lies as straw men, and people grow weary of being misrepresented and having that misrepresentation crammed down their throats with lengthy diatribes that present no real meat.

If that be the case, the common denominator is probably... you. I don’t believe this forum is “run mainly by Trinitarians.”

 

[firedragon]

When you start ‘understanding’ an untruth, you will get drawn into that untruth.

On what research learning are you making this statement? Can you show the data?

 

[firedragon]

even more that you think opposing trinity is wrong... the way I do it, anyway

NOPE. I didnt say that. I think you made that sentence up for some other kind of satisfaction.

If you cant understand sentences, ask someone.

I said, this thread was not meant to oppose trinity. I am opposed to trinity, but its irrelevant to this thread. I believe you have a serious problem my friend.

Ciao.

 

[Soapy]

“elite” or "the elite" is not a bad word or a bad way to identify a special group of people. perhaps you would prefer the "elect " ?? it identify's those that will serve with Jesus in the kingdom

Oops, sorry, I meant, ‘Elect’... damn auto-spellchecker!!!

 

[syo]

syo, would you answer a few questions that I ask of you...

One question, one explanatory answer.

Another question, another explanatory answer?

Sure.

 

[Soapy]

On what research learning are you making this statement? Can you show the data?

The Greeks seek evidence...!

Do you not know this as a fact!

If you don’t then I feel sorry for you when you do find out!

I'm being sincere... Don’t try to understand nonsense... you will start to believe it!!!

Can you not already see that by claiming that Jesus is Hod it destroys everything that Jesus did... scriptures say that you are crucifying him twice!!!

You don’t believe in trinity but you are trying and willing to try to understand it??? That’s creating a rod for your own back!

Ok, here it is:

• Satan does not want anyone to believe the truth.., so he induces a group that has a selfish leaning towards Christianity to develop their own version of the truth and become leaders and ‘elites’ in that fallacy. This is what happened before, during, and after the councils (Nicaea, etc).
• By all means study the Creeds... three of them in general... but in particular the Athanasian Creed. See how it changes over time... No Truth CHANGES (despite what Sojourner says!!) Certainly FALSE UNDERSTANDING of TRUTH can change but the truth itself does not!
• Notice that at one time there was no Holy Spirit... how can a trinity only have TWO MEMBERS?
• Notice that the creed suggests that Jesus was BORN FROM GOD... God is not born but trinity suggests it is so.. but when they realised that they were professing ANOTHER GOD, they modified the trinity to say that though they are persons of God they are not three gods but one... There is nothing of any sort in any scripture of the bible
• Trinity tries - and FAILS - to say WHERE the Son comes from... simply, they cannot define it... they claim the son was born BEFORE TIME but then realise that is ridiculous because born is still born - a creation! Do they then say he is ETERNALLY BEING BORN... equally ridiculous! And they know it do they cover themselves by claiming that it is YOU who cannot understand trinity - exactly as sojourner says... You know those words: ‘[trinity] God is:
  • unfathomable; INCOMPREHENSIBLE; a MYSTERY’
• Well, I do not disagree with that.. they don’t even know they are admitting that their belief system makes no sense...
• For sure, we all know, that as christians, Jesus came to reveal the Father... GOD GAVE JESUS THE REVELATION TO GIVE TO JOHN VIA HIS ANGEL TO GIVE TO THE CHURCH. If the [trinity] belief is true AND INCOMPREHENSIBLE and God is unfathomable, then Jesus FAILED TO REVEAL THE FATHER... Which is a CONTRADICTION.
• And, since Jesus claims he revealed the Father to ‘us/them’:
  • ‘I have given them the word you gave me to give to them and they have received it’
• They are therefore calling Jesus Christ, their GOD, a liar....
• If Satan can turn mankind against God by discrediting God’s works then he wins
• If Satan can tempt mankind to place Jesus on the throne of God then Satan wins
• If Satan can create a false God - a three-headed God then Satan and paganism wins
• If Satan can destroy the REVELATION given to Jesus that Jesus gave to John and the church via his angel then there is no Almighty God - Satan wins
• If Satan can cause so much confusion with incomprehensible ideology disguised as God-given then the truth is grieved and if the truth is grieved there is no hope - Satan wins

So, Firedragon, what is it you yet need to understand about a ‘wounded beast’ that you still don’t understand to avoid it!?

 

[cataway]

I see you’re unfamiliar with the practice of exegesis. Instead you make “mush gospel.” How unfortunate. None of this informs Matthew. But, now you mention it, John does agree with me: bring “others” and make them one.

However, your cult thrives on going against this call to oneness, creating division between human beings, insisting that an arbitrary number, gleaned from a highly symbolic and mythic account, is somehow concrete. You find all this talk of equity threatening. How sad.

Matthew was long dead when it was reveled to John . even John did not under stand the things that were reveled to him . its even possible that Jesus did not know until he returned to heaven . he did know that there would be a relatively small number out of all the billions + that would be living on the earth that would join him in heaven. but did he know how many ?? hard to say. there are people that would like to think Jesus knows as much as the father.
Jesus is mighty but not almighty.

Rev 7 :
9 "After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands."

BTW you are showing you ignorance when referring to the JW's as a cult.

 

[Soapy]

Sure.

Thank you.
Question 1:

• In trinity, are the three rulers absolutely co-equal, co-almighty, co-knowledgeable?

 

[syo]

Thank you.
Question 1:

• In trinity, are the three rulers absolutely co-equal, co-almighty, co-knowledgeable?

There aren't three rulers. The trinity is undivided. There is one ruler = the undivided trinity.

 

[sojourner]

Matthew was long dead when it was reveled to John

None of this matters. Matthew didn’t write Matthew. But it is that Gospel we’re dealing with right now. Revelation does not inform Matthew.

even John did not under stand the things that were reveled to him

No one else does either.

its even possible that Jesus did not know until he returned to heaven

I disagree.

he did know that there would be a relatively small number out of all the billions + that would be living on the earth that would join him in heaven

I disagree.

there are people that would like to think Jesus knows as much as the father

And they have a valid belief.

BTW you are showing you ignorance when referring to the JW's as a cult

No. I’m not. JWs are a cult. Compared to the rest of Christianity, they are small in number. They hold beliefs different to the majority of the Faith. And they set themselves apart as having special knowledge and special election. That fits the dictionary definitions of “cult.” It also, IMO, fits other criteria which I won’t go into here.

From Merriam-Webster: : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious. : a system of religious beliefs and ritual. See? Cult.

 

[Soapy]

There aren't three rulers. The trinity is undivided. There is one ruler = the undivided trinity.

Question 2:

• In trinity, Is the Father greater than the Son?

 

[syo]

Question 2:

• In trinity, Is the Father greater than the Son?

The Father makes the decisions and the Son follows. The Son never takes an initiative. The Son's power comes from the Father. That's the reason the Son calls the Father greater.

But the Father can't create without the Son carrying out the orders. The Son connects the Father with the creations.

 

[Soapy]

The Father makes the decisions and the Son follows. The Son never takes an initiative. The Son's power comes from the Father. That's the reason the Son calls the Father greater.

But the Father can't create without the Son carrying out the orders. The Son connects the Father with the creations.

Question 3:

1. Did the Son create everything?

 

[firedragon]

The Greeks seek evidence...!

Do you not know this as a fact!

If you don’t then I feel sorry for you when you do find out!

I'm being sincere... Don’t try to understand nonsense... you will start to believe it!!!

Can you not already see that by claiming that Jesus is Hod it destroys everything that Jesus did... scriptures say that you are crucifying him twice!!!

You don’t believe in trinity but you are trying and willing to try to understand it??? That’s creating a rod for your own back!

Ok, here it is:

• Satan does not want anyone to believe the truth.., so he induces a group that has a selfish leaning towards Christianity to develop their own version of the truth and become leaders and ‘elites’ in that fallacy. This is what happened before, during, and after the councils (Nicaea, etc).
• By all means study the Creeds... three of them in general... but in particular the Athanasian Creed. See how it changes over time... No Truth CHANGES (despite what Sojourner says!!) Certainly FALSE UNDERSTANDING of TRUTH can change but the truth itself does not!
• Notice that at one time there was no Holy Spirit... how can a trinity only have TWO MEMBERS?
• Notice that the creed suggests that Jesus was BORN FROM GOD... God is not born but trinity suggests it is so.. but when they realised that they were professing ANOTHER GOD, they modified the trinity to say that though they are persons of God they are not three gods but one... There is nothing of any sort in any scripture of the bible
• Trinity tries - and FAILS - to say WHERE the Son comes from... simply, they cannot define it... they claim the son was born BEFORE TIME but then realise that is ridiculous because born is still born - a creation! Do they then say he is ETERNALLY BEING BORN... equally ridiculous! And they know it do they cover themselves by claiming that it is YOU who cannot understand trinity - exactly as sojourner says... You know those words: ‘[trinity] God is:
  • unfathomable; INCOMPREHENSIBLE; a MYSTERY’
• Well, I do not disagree with that.. they don’t even know they are admitting that their belief system makes no sense...
• For sure, we all know, that as christians, Jesus came to reveal the Father... GOD GAVE JESUS THE REVELATION TO GIVE TO JOHN VIA HIS ANGEL TO GIVE TO THE CHURCH. If the [trinity] belief is true AND INCOMPREHENSIBLE and God is unfathomable, then Jesus FAILED TO REVEAL THE FATHER... Which is a CONTRADICTION.
• And, since Jesus claims he revealed the Father to ‘us/them’:
  • ‘I have given them the word you gave me to give to them and they have received it’
• They are therefore calling Jesus Christ, their GOD, a liar....
• If Satan can turn mankind against God by discrediting God’s works then he wins
• If Satan can tempt mankind to place Jesus on the throne of God then Satan wins
• If Satan can create a false God - a three-headed God then Satan and paganism wins
• If Satan can destroy the REVELATION given to Jesus that Jesus gave to John and the church via his angel then there is no Almighty God - Satan wins
• If Satan can cause so much confusion with incomprehensible ideology disguised as God-given then the truth is grieved and if the truth is grieved there is no hope - Satan wins

So, Firedragon, what is it you yet need to understand about a ‘wounded beast’ that you still don’t understand to avoid it!?

So no research but just your made up fantasy that understanding something makes you embrace it.

So are you saying you are speaking about so many things without understanding them?

 

[Soapy]

So no research but just your made up fantasy that understanding something makes you embrace it.

So are you saying you are speaking about so many things without understanding them?

Aha... I see the light of you. You actually do not understand the scriptures and are floundering under the weight of the truth shown to you.

I congratulate you on non-belief in trinity... that is a profound observation. But the in-depthness of the unbelief in trinity is lost on you. You cannot understand why you don’t believe in trinity - yet when I show you what is what and when what is what and why what is what you insult me by saying I do not know what I am saying...

‘Do not grieve the spirit of truth...!’

I am not the spirit of truth which is the Holy Spirit of truth but truth is truth and it is a singular entity.

If you can show me which or what entity of the lists of truth I showed you, then we can talk about my ‘error’ that you presume.

Im happy to engage on this as I’m intrigued as to what I said that wasn’t true.

 

[syo]

Question 3:

1. Did the Son create everything?

Father created everything through the Son.

 

[firedragon]

Aha... I see the light of you. You actually do not understand the scriptures and are floundering under the weight of the truth shown to you.

This is not about scripture. This is about you saying that understanding something makes you embrace it. And you didnt have any research to back it up, plus maybe thats your approach.

"Reproach things without understanding it" - You.

Great strategy.

 

[Soapy]

This is not about scripture. This is about you saying that understanding something makes you embrace it. And you didnt have any research to back it up, plus maybe thats your approach.

"Reproach things without understanding it" - You.

Great strategy.

Er, no... If you follow what I said then you will understand the reason and purpose for all the events that took place and will take place regarding Christian belief in our God’s kingdom and the lesser kingdom of creation.

1. God created a world and put man in charge of it
2. There was only one man at the beginning and as HEAD therefore of mankind; Father; he would have been rewarded as KING over creation
3. But the man sinned and like Saul lost his place, ‘Because you have done this thing...‘
4. God’s word MUST come true...
5. God proposed that a blood sacrifice of an unblemished man should pay that price
   
6. So a solution had to be found for redemption
   
7. But because God knew things might not go right (we are, afterall, subject to errors of behaviour due to sin [of Adam]) He set a contingency plan in place (‘Seed of the woman’)
8. God gave man time to bring forth such a man but none was found and so God enacted his ‘disaster recovery’ contingency plan:
9. God created a SECOND ADAM... made in the same fashion as the first Adam, which satisfies his prophecy:
   • ‘Behold my Servant whom I have chosen, my beloved (Firstborn: Most beloved of the Father) on which I will pour out my spirit and he will bring justice to the nations’ (Isaiah 42:1)
10. So, as scriptures says:
    • ‘God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, [STRIKE]and through whom also he made the universe[/STRIKE]‘
11. This verse in Hebrews 1:1-2 is a summation and thus speaks of the Son after the effect: God appointed him heir of all things after he died, resurrected, and glorified in heaven. Scriptures might have Jesus saying, ‘All things have been given to me’ while he was still on earth but this is only by a surety: ‘I haven’t died yet but it’s a certainty so it’s as good as done!’
12. And the strikeout bits are CLEARLY TRINITARIAN ADDED as they make no sense if Jesus CREATED the world! How does one BECOME HEIR to what he created... HEIR!!? What does it mean to be HEIR?
13. The birth of Jesus was as this: An angel overshadowed a maiden and prompted the fertilisation of one of her eggs. This overshadowing meant that the seed of man (sperm) was not the enlivening element of the seed of the woman. Sin is, spiritually, in the seed of the man, and so sin is passed from man to man - human to human. But since the seed was enlivened by the Holy Spirit:
    • ‘The child to be born to you will be HOLY, and shall be called “Son of the God Most High”’
    • Is it strange to see Adam, created from dust of the earth (seed) and the enlivening spirit of God, being ALSO CALLED “Son of the God Most High” (Luke 3:38)
14. ...

(I have to go now but my thesis is incomplete (but nothing I haven’t said before nor will say in the future: truth doesn’t change!) but please show any objections to anything I wrote above... Use the numbered sections.. thanks!)