The trinity debate - Is it monotheism?

[Earthtank]

It seems to me that if many Muslims can believe that Allah has a face and a hand then they should for consistency also be comfortable with the Christians who also believe in Allah having a face, hands etc.

Of course I don’t believe Allah has a face and a hand so i’m possibly more monotheistic in that sense than many Muslims and Christians.

I do not know of any Muslim or even Muslim scholar that beleive that Allah has has a physical face and hands like we do rather, the words used in the Quran are more metaphorical and worded in a way for us to understand. The same was Muslims believe Allah is not man nor woman, even though Allah is referred to as "He" and other places "We" its just a word used to us to understand.

 

[Muffled]

A righteous servant or follower is equated as or like their Master ;

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Luk 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

I believe there is no way for a disciple to equate himself with his master. I may come close but I could never like Jesus say that I am one with the Father.

 

[firedragon]

Actually it's not different as the Trinitarian concept is not in any way "idolatry". As I've posted many times lately on this, and the key to understanding this is to look up the concept of "essence" as used by some of the Greek philosophers that eventually was used in the types of symbolic writing that was used in the writing of scriptures in Koine Greek. Even the Wiki article on "essence" is actually quite helpful.

To put it another way, this concept has it that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not God the Father but are of God the Father's "essence".

The idea of idolatry differs from one book to another. And its completely irrelevant to the question in concern. Idolatry is a Greek word idulotrias. Paul puts it as one of the sins along with other sins like enmity, anger, heresy etc etc so for him its a simple image worship. In Islam idolatry is to value anything as God. Money, greed, ego, children, property, Mullahs, anything. Concepts change and are entirely different, and often misunderstood. Thus, usage of a word like idolatry loosely will not take anyone anywhere.

I understand the concept of trinity brother. The question is, what are the arguments to make it either monotheism or polytheism?

 

[Muffled]

False. If the they were on why did Jesus say "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" If they are one person who is Jesus talking to? This clearly shows that Jesus and his God have 2 different wills and 2 different "plans" therefore, they cannot be 1 person. Unless, you want to say that Jesus is crazy therefore god is crazy therefore only crazy people follow crazy people.



Seems the Christian God do not understand basic logic, does this supposedly the creator of all mankind not know how to communicate with his own creation? I can accept that somethings in religion are metaphorical and not always easy to understand however, i think the very main and basic concept of God would be one that should be logical and understood by all.



No, its still polytheism.



Just because people can argue something does not mean its true, rational or valid.

I believe it is true. He was quoting the first line of a prophetic psalm that refers to HIm.

I don't believe it does show that Jesus has one will that is separate from God. The fact is that Jesus like all of us has two wills: the will of the flesh which is not God and the will of the spirit which is God. Our wills are the Will of the flesh and the will of our spirit neither of which is God but when we have Jesus as Lord and Savior we have the will of the Spirit of God as well.

I believe that is blasphemy. I reason very well, thank you.

I believe He does better than anyone.

I believe in its essence it is not polytheism.

 

[firedragon]

False. If the they were on why did Jesus say "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" If they are one person who is Jesus talking to? This clearly shows that Jesus and his God have 2 different wills and 2 different "plans" therefore, they cannot be 1 person. Unless, you want to say that Jesus is crazy therefore god is crazy therefore only crazy people follow crazy people.

See. If i tell you your avatar name is Earthtank and someone comes and tells me "false", its because that person has not understood whats been said.

Mate. I dont believe in the trinity. Read the OP. Dont keep looking for a debate all the time. This post was all about it being monotheism or polytheism of a belief. Not if the trinity is correct or not. Hope you understand.

 

[Earthtank]

I believe it is true. He was quoting the first line of a prophetic psalm that refers to HIm.

I don't believe it does show that Jesus has one will that is separate from God. The fact is that Jesus like all of us has two wills: the will of the flesh which is not God and the will of the spirit which is God. Our wills are the Will of the flesh and the will of our spirit neither of which is God but when we have Jesus as Lord and Savior we have the will of the Spirit of God as well.

I believe that is blasphemy. I reason very well, thank you.

I believe He does better than anyone.

I believe in its essence it is not polytheism.

While i completely disagree with you and your logic, lets move on to something else. If Jesus and God are in 1, as you (baselessly) assume how about the knowledge of the hour?

"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

This also shows that Jesus does not have "Godly" knowledge as "Godly" knowledge is perfect thus, knowing everything, past, present and future. Why does the father know something Jesus does not?

So previously we have seen Jesus cry out for being forsaken by the father (a difference of wills) and now we see the father having more knowledge than Jesus (a difference of knowledge). Yet, you want to say, Jesus, who is a man, that is dependent on food, air, water, bathroom and everything else you and I are dependent on, is some how equal to the father, which is independent of all things?

 

[Earthtank]

See. If i tell you your avatar name is Earthtank and someone comes and tells me "false", its because that person has not understood whats been said.

Mate. I dont believe in the trinity. Read the OP. Dont keep looking for a debate all the time. This post was all about it being monotheism or polytheism of a belief. Not if the trinity is correct or not. Hope you understand.

I understand and thanks for your reply. However, the reason I answered your OP from the trinity's perspective because by showing how the trinity itself is false, then there is no question about monotheism vs polytheism. It will crumble under its own illogical weight. Basically, if you beleive in the trinity, even though there is no logical, rational or even biblical evidence to support that claim, by its own definition, the trinity is polytheism, unless people decide to throw out all their faculties or logical, rational and basic understanding of language.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

False. If the they were on why did Jesus say "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" If they are one person who is Jesus talking to?

It's a reference to Psalm 22, but are you sure Jesus even said it?

The Gospels have three different versions of Jesus's last words. That's only one of them.

 

[firedragon]

the trinity is polytheism

Why is it polytheism? Dont you think their belief is that God is one? The trinity is not three different persons but one person.

The idea of polytheism is that there are more than one God. e.g. God of war and Karmic God. These two Gods dont have any unity, they are not the same person, they are just two different Gods.

So isnt that very different from the concept of trinity?

 

[Quintessence]

What confuses me about the discussion is that we have more than two words we can use to describe the tallying of the gods along with a myriad of qualifiers. So long as the substance is properly communicated, that's what is most important.

In any case, the triplicate structure of the Christian trinity would only be polytheistic under the loosest (and IMHO most meaningless) sense of the word. True polytheism involves strict individuation of the gods, and the trinity does not. It is better to describe a trinity as "soft" monotheism.

 

[Iymus]

I believe there is no way for a disciple to equate himself with his master. I may come close but I could never like Jesus say that I am one with the Father.

An obedient follower is loved by their Master and seen as Family, Friend, and as themselves or an extension of themselves to their Master.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
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1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

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That is my opinion or perception thru observation but I also do not have the confidence to equate myself to the Master. Only a Master can equate or liken a Student as them self.

 

[metis]

I understand the concept of trinity brother. The question is, what are the arguments to make it either monotheism or polytheism?

As long as one doesn't understand the concept of "essence", one will never understand, as the question you ask above is a non-sequitur.

 

[Iymus]

What confuses me about the discussion is that we have more than two words we can use to describe the tallying of the gods along with a myriad of qualifiers. So long as the substance is properly communicated, that's what is most important.

In any case, the triplicate structure of the Christian trinity would only be polytheistic under the loosest (and IMHO most meaningless) sense of the word. True polytheism involves strict individuation of the gods, and the trinity does not. It is better to describe a trinity as "soft" monotheism.

Can soft be seen as lukewarm and therefore soft monotheism be seen as lukewarm monotheism?

 

[Quintessence]

Can soft be seen as lukewarm and therefore soft monotheism be seen as lukewarm monotheism?

Sure, why not?

We could also use terms like "strict" (no trinity) and "loose" (trinity). Take your pick, yes?

 

[firedragon]

As long as one doesn't understand the concept of "essence", one will never understand, as the question you ask above is a non-sequitur.

Nice. Thanks.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The trinity is in the belief that the father, the son and the holy spirit are one person. God. Even if it was 10 different entities it is still the one God. Thus, does that mean it's monotheism? Lets not mix this up with idolatry as many Muslims would because this question is not from an Islamic perspective but purely from Aqal or reason where if you take the Quran, have you questioned if it actually makes the trinity polytheism?

Also if one believes that Paul was a believer in the trinity as we perceive now, he also made a distinction in his usage of idolatry. For him idolatry is another sin and depicts an image worship.

Others would argue that its not monotheism because there are several entities. Though it is one God there are actually three different entities thus it becomes polytheism.

What do you perceive?

Trinity as described in the Bible is monotheistic.
But trinity as described at the council of nicaea was a farther development among Christians during 3rd or 4th centuries.
The station of Christ in the Bible is the same as the Quran. The Spirit of God, is the title of Jesus you would find in Islamic Hadithes very often. Now, how that title is interpreted is a different subject, but just as you find in the verses of the Quran, those who make a distinction between God, and His Messengers are disbelievers, you would also find conceptually same verses in Bible, stating there is no difference between God and Jesus. Now, again, interpretation of such statements in the Quran or Bible is another story, but I am just pointing out the similarities between Bible and the Quran with regards to station of a Messenger of God.

 

[firedragon]

What confuses me about the discussion is that we have more than two words we can use to describe the tallying of the gods along with a myriad of qualifiers. So long as the substance is properly communicated, that's what is most important.

In any case, the triplicate structure of the Christian trinity would only be polytheistic under the loosest (and IMHO most meaningless) sense of the word. True polytheism involves strict individuation of the gods, and the trinity does not. It is better to describe a trinity as "soft" monotheism.

Soft monotheism. Hmm. I suppose professor richards influence runs far. You are right in your assessment.

 

[firedragon]

Trinity as described in the Bible is monotheistic.

I think people do not understand the concept of relevance so i am gonna drop even attempting to be.

Can you quote the Bible and show me where it 'describes a monotheistic trinity"?

But trinity as described at the council of nicaea was a farther development among Christians during 3rd or 4th centuries.

It 325 A.D.

The station of Christ in the Bible is the same as the Quran.

No it is not. The Bible has different Christologies and through time it develops a more divine and more original or principle type of christologies so though many Muslim apologists say the same thing you said, its absolutely wrong.

The Spirit of God, is the title of Jesus you would find in Islamic Hadithes very often.

Can you please quote me these hadiths that say Jesus is the spirit of God?

but just as you find in the verses of the Quran, those who make a distinction between God, and His Messengers are disbelievers,

Where in the Qur'an does it say that?

but I am just pointing out the similarities between Bible and the Quran with regards to station of a Messenger of God.

If you are saying that prophets of the Bible and the Quran are the same, how about all those prophets who were prophesying in the book of samuel? Are they all as a whole lot the same as prophethood in the Quran?

 

[danieldemol]

I do not know of any Muslim or even Muslim scholar that beleive that Allah has has a physical face and hands like we do rather, the words used in the Quran are more metaphorical ....

I’d say the words “like we do” are pretty important qualifiers here. The face and hand of Allah may not be believed to be like ours, but there would appear to be Muslim scholars that do not interpret them metaphorically.

See for example this one on the feet of Allah, there are similar from the articles on the face and hand of Allah

“So we take these (attributes) as true in a real sense, not metaphorical.“

Affirmation that Allah has two feet - Islam Question & Answer

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I think people do not understand the concept of relevance so i am gonna drop even attempting to be.

Can you quote the Bible and show me where it 'describes a monotheistic trinity"?



It 325 A.D.



No it is not. The Bible has different Christologies and through time it develops a more divine and more original or principle type of christologies so though many Muslim apologists say the same thing you said, its absolutely wrong.

The whole story of Bible. Jesus repeatedly speaks of a Father, who sent Jesus. Jesus asks His followers to follow the will of The Father. Monotheistic means, when a Messenger tells people a God has sent Him to convey His message.

Can you please quote me these hadiths that say Jesus is the spirit of God?

Here is one. But there are so many of then if you look for Rooh allah, in hadithes.
http://lib.eshia.ir/71860/58/63/"روح_الله"

Where in the Qur'an does it say that?

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/4/150/default.htm

If you are saying that prophets of the Bible and the Quran are the same, how about all those prophets who were prophesying in the book of samuel? Are they all as a whole lot the same as prophethood in the Quran?

I am talking about station of a Messenger of God generally.