The trinity debate - Is it monotheism?

[InvestigateTruth]

I think people do not understand the concept of relevance so i am gonna drop even attempting to be.

Can you quote the Bible and show me where it 'describes a monotheistic trinity"?



It 325 A.D.



No it is not. The Bible has different Christologies and through time it develops a more divine and more original or principle type of christologies so though many Muslim apologists say the same thing you said, its absolutely wrong.

The whole story of Bible. Jesus repeatedly speaks of a Father, who sent Jesus. Jesus asks His followers to follow the will of The Father. Monotheistic means, when a Messenger tells people a God has sent Him to convey His message.

Can you please quote me these hadiths that say Jesus is the spirit of God?

Here is one. But there are so many of then if you look for Rooh allah, in hadithes.
http://lib.eshia.ir/71860/58/63/"روح_الله"

Where in the Qur'an does it say that?

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/4/150/default.htm

If you are saying that prophets of the Bible and the Quran are the same, how about all those prophets who were prophesying in the book of samuel? Are they all as a whole lot the same as prophethood in the Quran?

I am talking about station of a Messenger of God generally.

 

[Quintessence]

Soft monotheism. Hmm. I suppose professor richards influence runs far. You are right in your assessment.

I'm not familiar with who that is. In the Pagan community there have been many conversations about theology and some of them center around the "how many" question so that's where I draw much of my inspiration. I've witnessed several schools of thought on how this can all play out, and some of the language used to describe the theological diversity (e.g. "soft" monotheism, "soft" polytheism) can be useful. In any case, I'd defer to the devotees and theologians of this triplicate god to articulate how they see it to me and take that at face value. I'd interpret it differently as a Pagan (triform gods aren't exactly uncommon in polytheistic traditions) but that'd have no bearing on how they practice and perceive their traditions.

 

[Earthtank]

I’d say the words “like we do” are pretty important qualifiers here. The face and hand of Allah may not be believed to be like ours, but there would appear to be Muslim scholars that do not interpret them metaphorically.

See for example this one on the feet of Allah, there are similar from the articles on the face and hand of Allah

“So we take these (attributes) as true in a real sense, not metaphorical.“

Affirmation that Allah has two feet - Islam Question & Answer

Given that the Quran also says that there is nothing like Allah and that humans can't even imagine what Allah is like, I would say, in my opinion, all opinions that contradict the Quran are invalid. Seems the person answering the question is contradicting the Quran, also, on a separate note, there are many controversies surrounding that website in regards to its credibility and validity.

 

[InChrist]

The trinity is in the belief that the father, the son and the holy spirit are one person.
What do you perceive?

I don’t believe your definition is correct. The Trinity is not the belief that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are “one person”, One God, yes, but three Persons.
My understanding is that these three Persons and these alone share the eternal spiritual nature, essence, character, power, and other attributes which no other beings possess, making One God.

 

[firedragon]

I don’t believe your definition is correct. The Trinity is not the belief that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are “one person”, One God, yes, but three Persons.
My understanding is that these three Persons and these alone share the eternal spiritual nature, essence, character, power, and other attributes which no other beings possess, making One God.

Okay brother. I dont wish to get into that schism. But based on your assessment you believe its mono theism or polytheism?

 

[firedragon]

Here is one. But there are so many of then if you look for Rooh allah, in hadithes.
http://lib.eshia.ir/71860/58/63/"روح_الله"

1. Brother. Can you tell me how one says Jesus IS the spirit of God in the arabic language?
2. This hadith says "yawm yakum alrooh wa almalaikat safana waeesaa alayhi alsalam rooh allah walnisbat". How does that say "Jesus IS the spirit of God"? Dont you see infisal in that sentence?
3. You are quoting a 300 year old story from al jamiathu lidhurar which is an 18th century or maximum 17th century writing. What is the Isnad? Do you believe in Isnad of this story or what is your ulum ul ahadith to make this Sarih?

 

[Terry Sampson]

@firedragon

Your OP:

• 1) The trinity is in the belief that the father, the son and the holy spirit are one person. God.
• 2) Even if it was 10 different entities it is still the one God.
• 3) Thus, does that mean it's monotheism?
• 4) Let’s not mix this up with idolatry as many Muslims would because this question is not from an Islamic perspective but purely from Aqal or reason where if you take the Quran, have you questioned if it actually makes the trinity polytheism?
  • a) Also if one believes that Paul was a believer in the trinity as we perceive now, he also made a distinction in his usage of idolatry. For him idolatry is another sin and depicts an image worship.
• 5) Others would argue that it’s not monotheism because there are several entities. Though it is one God there are actually three different entities thus it becomes polytheism.
• 6) What do you perceive?

My preliminary comments:

• First, I think you were wise, in your OP, to set aside the issue of “idolatry”. Doing so, constrains the discussion somewhat by eliminating one cause for “name-calling”.
  • Consequently, I ignore items #4 and #4.a. above.
• Second, I feel obliged to challenge and correct your item #1 above. Corrected, it should read:
  • The Trinity is the belief that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three Persons in one God. There is one What and there are three Whos:
    • God answers “What?”
    • The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit answer “Who?”
• If my challenge and correction seem unintelligible, meaningless, and/or irrelevant to you, ignore them and move on.
• Next, I take your question, in #3 above, to say: “Does the Doctrine of the Trinity’s claim, i.e. One God consists of three Persons, mean that the Trinity is monotheistic?”
  • Can you live with that?
• Finally, I note here that, in your items #2 and #5, you use the term “entities” where, I believe, the Doctrine of Trinity uses the term “Persons”.
  • Do you concur with my belief?

 

[firedragon]

The Trinity is the belief that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three Persons in one God. There is one What and there are three Whos:

• God answers “What?”
• The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit answer “Who?”

Haha. You are right. I wasnt going into a deep explanation of what the concept of trinity is. Was expecting people to take it as "we know what it is so lets go past the definition and attend to the question of monotheism".

Next, I take your question, in #3 above, to say: “Does the Doctrine of the Trinity’s claim, i.e. One God consists of three Persons, mean that the Trinity is monotheistic?”

• Can you live with that?

Yes i can live with that. Otherwise i become a hypocrite in making that blanket statement or even following the thought "3 monotheistic religions" referring to Judaism, Christianity and islam.

Finally, I note here that, in your items #2 and #5, you use the term “entities” where, I believe, the Doctrine of Trinity uses the term “Persons”.

• Do you concur with my belief?

Yes I concur.

 

[firedragon]

I'm not familiar with who that is. In the Pagan community there have been many conversations about theology and some of them center around the "how many" question so that's where I draw much of my inspiration. I've witnessed several schools of thought on how this can all play out, and some of the language used to describe the theological diversity (e.g. "soft" monotheism, "soft" polytheism) can be useful. In any case, I'd defer to the devotees and theologians of this triplicate god to articulate how they see it to me and take that at face value. I'd interpret it differently as a Pagan (triform gods aren't exactly uncommon in polytheistic traditions) but that'd have no bearing on how they practice and perceive their traditions.

Oh sorry brother. I referred to Richard Prothero who basically made famous the phrase soft monotheism. But in a very general sense, the same as you do. But i dont claim you took it directly from him. I tend to agree with you. No worries.

 

[firedragon]

I’d say the words “like we do” are pretty important qualifiers here. The face and hand of Allah may not be believed to be like ours, but there would appear to be Muslim scholars that do not interpret them metaphorically.

See for example this one on the feet of Allah, there are similar from the articles on the face and hand of Allah

“So we take these (attributes) as true in a real sense, not metaphorical.“

Affirmation that Allah has two feet - Islam Question & Answer

Which "scholar" are you referring to?

 

[Terry Sampson]

@firedragon
Trivia:

• In your OP, you wrote, in Item #4: "Let’s not mix this up with idolatry as many Muslims would because this question is not from an Islamic perspective but purely from Aqal or reason..." Is the word "Aqal" an Arabic word or is it the acronym "AQAL" referred to in the graphics shown at https://www.google.com/search?q=Aqa...WxoFsKHZIrC4gQ_AUoAXoECAwQAw&biw=1760&bih=847 ?
• I notice that Baha'i are participating in the conversation of this thread. I recognize that this your thread and that you can talk to whomever you want about whatever you want, but ... the day that a Baha'i can give you a Christian view of the Trinity or even guide you to a better understanding of the Trinity will not come in our lifetime, IMO.

 

[firedragon]

Is the word "Aqal" an Arabic word or is it the acronym "AQAL" referred to in the graphics shown at https://www.google.com/search?q=Aqa...WxoFsKHZIrC4gQ_AUoAXoECAwQAw&biw=1760&bih=847 ?

That was meant to any Muslim who may wish to contribute. Aqal means the reasoning of mind or thought. Using your intellect.

I notice that Baha'i are participating in the conversation of this thread. I recognize that this your thread and that you can talk to whomever you want about whatever you want, but ... the day that a Baha'i can give you a Christian view of the Trinity or even guide you to a better understanding of the Trinity will not come in our lifetime, IMO.

Actually i didnt notice if someone was a Bahai. I just tried my best to make it as neutral as possible, so just using your intellect what would you think the concept of trinity is, monotheism or polytheism.

 

[Terry Sampson]

@firedragon

In John 4:24, I read Jesus' words to the Samaritan woman at Jacob's well, in or near the Samaritan city of Sychar: "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

And in Acts 17:22-31. I read Paul's speech to the Athenian Greeks on the Areopagus (a hill in Athens):

• 22 So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects.
• 23 “For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.
• 24 “The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;
• 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;
• 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
• 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
• 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’
• 29 “Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man."

Summary: God is a Spirit--Creator of heaven, earth, and of all things in heaven and on earth--in whom we humans live, move, and have our being.

Question: Is God knowable without revelation?

 

[danieldemol]

Which "scholar" are you referring to?

The website referred to attributes that quote to;
“Standing Committee for Academic Research and Issuing Fatwas

Bakr Abu Zayd, ‘Abd al-‘Azeez Aal ash-Shaykh, Saalih al-Fawzaan, ‘Abdullah ibn Ghadyaan, ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn ‘Abdullah ibn Baaz.”

 

[firedragon]

The website referred to attributes that quote to;
“Standing Committee for Academic Research and Issuing Fatwas

Bakr Abu Zayd, ‘Abd al-‘Azeez Aal ash-Shaykh, Saalih al-Fawzaan, ‘Abdullah ibn Ghadyaan, ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn ‘Abdullah ibn Baaz.”

Brother. They are not the scholars you are quoting. They are only reporting and creating a fatawa. You should understand what you are quoting a little deeper.

 

[danieldemol]

Brother. They are not the scholars you are quoting. They are only reporting and creating a fatawa. You should understand what you are quoting a little deeper.

Well maybe I’m misunderstanding, but I thought “academic research” implied they are scholars. Anyway I think it is well known that Ibn Taymiyyah and such scholars as he influenced held to the idea that God had a literal face, hands etc.

 

[firedragon]

Well maybe I’m misunderstanding, but I thought “academic research” implied they are scholars. Anyway I think it is well known that Ibn Taymiyyah and such scholars as he influenced held to the idea that God had a literal face, hands etc.

Yes. Ibn Taimiyya was "accused". And the scholars you quoted from that website are purely making a fatawa that Ibn Taimiyya's book Akeedathul Wasithiyyah narrated a hadith about Hell asking for more people and God puts his foot on it.

Do you understand brother? These scholars are making a fatawa that the hadith was narrated by Ibn Thaimiyya, not . The hadith that he narrates from earlier sources. And it is only narrating that "When asks for more God puts a put on it" as in to stop it. Not that he puts a physical foot. But of course some people would make the case its a foot and then they say "they end their thoughts there". But the scholars you quote dont say God had a foot, they are saying that they stop there.

Anyway, it is because the people at the time "thought" and "accused" ibn thaimiyyah of anthropomorphism he was persecuted and jailed as a heretic who made false claims. This goes a long way back. And he doesnt claim a physical face or hand. What he does is he states these verses that speaks of these attributes, its a narrative. So some people may accuse him as propagating anthropomorphism but thats an accusative perspective. I am just saying these things brother to inform you for your own knowledge.

nevertheless, this post is a question on monotheism or/and polytheism of the trinity concept. How is anthropomorphism of God by some Islamic scholars or whatever relevant to that?

 

[Iymus]

Jews and Arabs are considered Hebrew people and despite the terminology or how it is conveyed in their books; They confess The God of Abraham or of the Hebrews to be one; point blank period, no additions, no substances, no persons, simply one authority above all and greater than all, the origination of Creation.

James 2:19-20

It all comes down to how we live our life knowing that God is one. I am paraphrasing but even Jesus said if he is not living by the works of his God and Father or how his God and Father wants him to live then believe him not; in John 10:37

 

[firedragon]

Jews and Arabs are considered Hebrew people and despite the terminology or how it is conveyed in their books; They confess The God of Abraham or of the Hebrews to be one; point blank period, no additions, no substances, no persons, simply one authority above all and greater than all, the origination of Creation.

An addition to that is needed. The Islamic perspective is that God is one. Monotheism. God is God of all and everything. The only deity or divinity. God is god of abraham, the same as being God of an eskimo.

But again, none of this is relevant to the OP.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Jews and Arabs are considered Hebrew people

By you and some others, maybe, but not by everyone.
As I understand it, Jews and Samaritans are Hebrews, i.e. descendants of Jacob, Isaac's son and Abraham's grandson. Jews, Samaritans, and Arabs are Semitic, i.e. Semites.