The trinity debate - Is it monotheism?

[syo]

What do you perceive?

The Trinity is monotheistic. It's three persons undivided. There is the holy phrase, ''In the name of the Holy, consubstantial and undivided Trinity''.
That's what I understood.

 

[cataway]

ah so the trinity is 3 co-equal gods . of which only one had authority to tell the two other gods what to do. which means the boss god told the foreman god what he wanted done ,who then instructed the HS god how many things were needed . hence the phrases Get-Er-Done because boss god wont like it if it fails.

 

[firedragon]

ah so the trinity is 3 co-equal gods . of which only one had authority to tell the two other gods what to do. which means the boss god told the foreman god what he wanted done ,who then instructed the HS god how many things were needed . hence the phrases Get-Er-Done because boss god wont like it if it fails.

Brother. With all due respect, you dont have to accept someone elses theology. You dont have to agree with it either, yet you can understand it.

You have not understood the Trinity doctrine. I mean, you have not understood the claim if i may put it that way.

 

[Muffled]

I believe that it is the desire to see things in the wrong light that causes the problem with the word, ‘person’.

We, as humans, call each other, ‘People’. It distinguishes humans from animals. We are ALL humans, those of us from mankind made in the image of our everlasting Father, the Deity we call our God.

‘People’ is used to distinguish differences in general groups. Or ‘Person’, as People as an individual.

When we visualise our almighty God, we think of him as a human in an imperious position - we cannot think of him as the ‘Spirit’ that he is because we have no concept of how to view ‘Spirit’.

Angels are Spirits.. we cannot see them nor know their form... in fact, they are formless... a form has an enclosure (one definition of ‘Form’). Spirit is FORMLESS... un-embodied intelligence and power existing in a dimension beyond our conception. To show themselves, they form BODIES and clothe themselves in spiritually white garments to signify purity and sinlessness. Also, of course, to look like humans (males species).

We do not call angels, ‘People’, because they are spirit. And we must not compare them to ourselves... they are SERVANTS of God in full unadulterated service. We could call them something similar to human creations of ‘Robots’ - highly intelligent and powerful robots with high levels of autonomy but only set to achieve the task set to them by their creator: Almighty God.

‘People’, a nation of people... humans in groups of a like-mindedness, beliefs, and outlook.

So, though God is Spirit, we believe HE is our creator... so though Spirit, we visualise HIM as we do a human IN FORM... we speak of him as having eyes, hands, white beard, being ancient-looking, feet, tongue, mouth... etc.

Why do we call him a person? We have no other description that we can give him... We cannot pray to Spirit... we need visualisations... so we call HIM, a PERSON... but not of a human kind.

And yet there are those who, despite the definitions given, call him ‘God in flesh’... weird, or what? Jesus Christ: ‘God in flesh’.

But ‘Person’... who translated the bible? Did the translator struggle with spiritual concepts such that his only option was to personify the Spirit...

A cartoon character in a two dimensional video screen cannot behold the concept of a three dimensional world. Cannot perceive its creator. But when intelligence is given it to ‘imagine’ human beings... what word will it use to call us...
—— ‘Avatar’???

I believe Jesus qualifies as a People person in one sense but in another sense He is a God person which is different. The Father is not a people person. The Holy Spirit is a multitude of People/God persons.

I believe there is no evidence as to whether they have previous bodies or not but as created beings it seems they might unless it is just the spirit that is created.

I believe we do that based on the second definition the first being people but the second is having personality. A spirit has its own personality whether it is ours or God's. So what you will find is that all three members of the Trinity have the same personality in the spiritual form because there is one Spirit. Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call

I believe it is quite logical for those who have spiritual understanding.

I believe this is how it works: A person is more than an it. So the Fater is a person with personality but no humanity so that is one type of person in the Trinity then Jesus is a person with Godly personality and also is a physical person which is a different type of person from the Father, The Paracle (Holy Spirit) is a different type of person with Godly personality and inhabits people persons.

 

[cataway]

Brother. With all due respect, you dont have to accept someone elses theology. You dont have to agree with it either, yet you can understand it.

You have not understood the Trinity doctrine. I mean, you have not understood the claim if i may put it that way.

understand it ?? i just explained it to you. i cant help it if the trinity comes off as the biggest fares to ever come along.

 

[Muffled]

Brother. Evolution is not life emerging from stones. Evolution does not get to the beginning of life. It only studies from after the emergence of life.

I get your point and agree. But that cannot negate evolution.

I believe it doesn't negate it completely but there isn't enough proof and never will be to say that it is valid. At best one can perceive a possible progression of species but whether that is because of evolution or just a perception remains to be proven.

 

[Muffled]

Oops... has the thread changed from discussing:

• Trinity: Monotheism vs Polytheism

to:

• Evolution vs Creation

Mia Culpa. I do believe Jesus is a creation and the first one to be born.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Then again He is recreated in the resurrection:

Phil 3:21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

 

[firedragon]

I believe it doesn't negate it completely but there isn't enough proof and never will be to say that it is valid. At best one can perceive a possible progression of species but whether that is because of evolution or just a perception remains to be proven.

You mean progression kind or genes?

 

[firedragon]

understand it ?? i just explained it to you. i cant help it if the trinity comes off as the biggest fares to ever come along.

No you didnt explain it.

 

[cataway]

No you didnt explain it.

explain a pagan's concept of a false god ? that's some thing false religions do . likely backed by the evil one too miss lead

 

[firedragon]

explain a pagan's concept of a false god ? that's some thing false religions do . likely backed by the evil one too miss lead

Even if its pagan or silk, one could.

Peace.

 

[Soapy]

No. I disagree.


Nope. Your theological model is mistaken.


Ever hear of "first among equals?"


You're confused. That's not what the doctrine claims.

This is amazing non-science! ‘First among equals’... are you for real?

Who redefined EQUALITY, let alone ABSOLUTE EQUALITY...? Equality is equality... Absolute equality is ONLY RUBBERSTAMPING the equality - not adding to it!!

So whether plain vanilla equality or emphatic absolute equality, it is ONE THING... and cannot be subdivided...

Trinity claims God is ONE but then SUBDIVIDES him into three... and after claiming that though each is GOD (and God is totally ONE) they are nonetheless RANKED AS UNEQUALS...

Wow, I want to redefine the word, ‘Tautology’ to mean this confusing trinity mess!!

But you what... Almighty God never said he was ONE GOD... he said he was the Israelites ONLY God!! Not quite the same thing...

The references God made was that the Israelites were living among and surrounded by tribes and nations who believed in MULTIPLE GODs.

YHWH God told them that they are to believe that He was their ONLY GOD. There is no provision for God claiming to be ‘ONE GOD’ in respect of being a DEITY.... that he was ONE DEITY who was three persons!!

Moreover, since all three trinity persons are GOD, that makes them three head RULERS... which is POLYTHEISM!!!

 

[Soapy]

None of this is in the doctrine. You're creating a straw man.


Jesus was FULLY human -- as the doctrine asserts. You're conveniently forgetting that part.

I wonder if you realise I have been dealing with Trinitarians for more years than I care to remember...

It is clear trinity policy to DENY the claims of all other Trinitarians if such denial attempt to declare trinity ‘fallacy truth’ to an opponent!!

Your denial of trinity expositions that I have argued against for years is testament to the fallacy of trinity. I do not wrote these things for fun nor malice but because they are exactly what Trinitarians have used in their defence against the truth I present to them... if you are denying these trinity claims then it is proof positive against your own fellow trinitarian believers...

To wit: ‘Satan fighting against Satan’.

His house must fall - but a little while longer... The shout has gone out:

• ‘Get out of her or else suffer the sins that are to be inflicted upon her’

Woe to him still found in his house when it falls - like in the days of Samson in the halls of the Philistines!

 

[Soapy]

The Trinity is monotheistic. It's three persons undivided. There is the holy phrase, ''In the name of the Holy, consubstantial and undivided Trinity''.
That's what I understood.

It really isn’t what you understand - it is what you have been indoctrinated to believe.

Test the sense and logic for yourself - How is trinity undivided when Jesus is man and the Father is God!!

What purpose is there in three ABSOLUTE CO-EQUAL HEADS when ANYONE of them can do what ALL THREE can do by themself...

But then you notice that they CANNOT... because the Holy Spirit is just an EMANATION of the Father... the Spirit of the Father....

The light from the lamp is NOT THE LAMP... it is an emanation from the lamp!!

The light can only point itself out in the area that the lamp shines it.

The lamp can shut the light down.

The lamp can increase or decrease the light intensity.

What can the light do of its own?

• ‘All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.‘ (Matthew 11:27)

The Father is the Lamp OWNER, the Son is the Lamp Holder, and the revelation is the light from the lamp.
The revelation comes from the Father, through the Son, to the congregation (Rev 1:1). The revelation is to those whom the Son reveals with guidance from the Father:

• ‘Father, I have given them the revelation you gave me to give to them and they have received it...’

The lamp holder, the Son. He shines the light from the lamp where the lamp OWNER directs him to shine it.

Jesus was directed by God to go ONLY to the Jews - not even to the Samaritan who are exiled Jews die to their misbehaviour.

Jesus did not direct himself... he was SENT BY THE FATHER. He said so I’m self in plain undeniable speech.

And the power to do miracles... Trinitarians claim that doing miracles proves Jesus is God... whoowee, no, no... Jesus told the Jews:

• ‘The things you see me do are not of myself but of him who sent me!’

For this reason, Jesus prayed OPENLY for the light, the Holy Spirit, when it came to raising Lazarus. He did not want people to think he was the initiator... but the AGENT only... the agent of ate Father... the prayer plainly stated that t was GOD, not Jesus, who was doing the miracle...

Jesus has not received power to raise the dead... he did not yet have ‘the right to have LIFE in himself’ (to give life... reference to prophecy of his ‘Eternal Fathership’ when he GIVES ETERNAL LIFE to believers at the judgement seat!!)

But hold on, DIDNT he raise up Jairus’ daughter?
But no! Jesus said the girl was not DEAD! She was only ‘SLEEPING’.. possible a reference to what was unknown in those days: ‘in a Coma’.

But then two more things:

• Elisha and Elijah ‘raised the dead’
• All persons raised up to this day DIED LATER!!

The only ETERNAL RAISING UP is Jesus and those in the FUTURE at the judgement seat...

And that Jesus-raising-up was carried out by ALMIGHTY GOD: The Father.

 

[syo]

It really isn’t what you understand - it is what you have been indoctrinated to believe.

Test the sense and logic for yourself - How is trinity undivided when Jesus is man and the Father is God!!

What purpose is there in three ABSOLUTE CO-EQUAL HEADS when ANYONE of them can do what ALL THREE can do by themself...

But then you notice that they CANNOT... because the Holy Spirit is just an EMANATION of the Father... the Spirit of the Father....

The light from the lamp is NOT THE LAMP... it is an emanation from the lamp!!

The light can only point itself out in the area that the lamp shines it.

The lamp can shut the light down.

The lamp can increase or decrease the light intensity.

What can the light do of its own?

The lamp holder, the Son. He shines the light from the lamp where the lamp OWNER directs him to shine it.

Jesus was directed by God to go ONLY to the Jews - not even to the Samaritan who are exiled Jews die to their misbehaviour.

Jesus did not direct himself... he was SENT BY THE FATHER. He said so I’m self in plain undeniable speech.

And the power to do miracles... Trinitarians claim that doing miracles proves Jesus is God... whoowee, no, no... Jesus told the Jews:

• ‘The things you see me do are not of myself but of him who sent me!’

For this reason, Jesus prayed OPENLY for the light, the Holy Spirit, when it came to raising Lazarus. He did not want people to think he was the initiator... but the AGENT only... the agent of ate Father... the prayer plainly stated that t was GOD, not Jesus, who was doing the miracle...

Jesus has not received power to raise the dead... he did not yet have ‘the right to have LIFE in himself’ (to give life... reference to prophecy of his ‘Eternal Fathership’ when he GIVES ETERNAL LIFE to believers at the judgement seat!!)

But hold on, DIDNT he raise up Jairus’ daughter?
But no! Jesus said the girl was not DEAD! She was only ‘SLEEPING’.. possible a reference to what was unknown in those days: ‘in a Coma’.

But then two more things:

• Elisha and Elijah ‘raised the dead’
• All persons raised up to this day DIED LATER!!

The only ETERNAL RAISING UP is Jesus and those in the FUTURE at the judgement seat...

And that Jesus-raising-up was carried out by ALMIGHTY GOD: The Father.

Jesus is the Son. Where do you place the Son? Isn't the Son God?

 

[Soapy]

Jesus is the Son. Where do you place the Son? Isn't the Son God?

This is unbelievable... syo... where have you been?

What do you mean by ‘Isnt the Son God’...

Have you read nothing of what has been written???

This is unbelievable!!

syo, NO!! The Son is NOT GOD...!!!

The Father ALONE IS GOD... do you not know this... where do you learn Christianity? Who is your teacher?

Ok, I’m breathing deeply...
...

...

Jesus is the SECOND ADAM... or precisely, the LAST ADAM.

The first Adam was created sinless, holy, innocent, .. he followed the guidance and commands of his creator: Almighty God: YHWH.

Father, means ‘Creator’, ‘Life Giver’, ‘Bringer into being’, ‘the Head’. Do you agree?

A SON, SPIRITUALLY, is ‘He who does the works of the Father’... try to understand this.

Adam is described as ‘SON OF GOD’ (Luke 3:38).
Who is Adam’s FATHER...

Why do you NOT think that Adam, a human, is SON OF GOD?

This is a SPIRITUAL FATHERHOOD, a SPIRITUAL SONSHIP!! God did not give BIRTH to Adam...as an OFFSPRING.

This thought of OFFSPRING is a HUMAN CONCEPT... God is SPIRIT and a SPIRIT DOES NOT PROCREATE (like for Like!)

We are told Adam is THE IMAGE OF GOD... spirit does not have an IMAGE, so this too is a SPIRITUAL MEANING: ‘The mindset, the abilities: love, intelligence, pride, wisdom, inventiveness, nurture, husbandry,...’ Animals have aspects but not anywhere near all these things... they are not ‘image of their creator’.

But Adam sinned... Adam, SON OF GOD, went against what God told him ... he sinned and LIST HIS HOLY SONSHIP...

Why is Jesus called the SECOND ADAM... ? Read again what the FIRST ADAM WAS...

Jesus, the second, the LAST ADAM, is also called ‘SON OF GOD’. Why do you say that Jesus being Son of God IS GOD but weirdly say the First Adam, being Son of God is NOT GOD?

Jesus, being born of the Holy Spirit intervention, is THEREFORE HOLY, theSon of the God most high.

How can you say that a child born from a human is ALMIGHTY GOD MOST HIGH. is this not what PAGANS believe... Think of your Greek superheroes...are these not DEMI-GODS... part human part ‘God’..?

And the Egyptians Pharoahs who claim they are human SONS of the Spirit Gods!!

When Adam sinned, God was angry and desired to destroy his creation. But relented. He gave a kind the chance to redeem itself through the giving of blood from a pure and holy MAN. He gave them time to find such a MAN.

Finally, when none was found, God enacted a CONTINGENCY PLAN he had set in place - A SECOND ADAM...

But since truly miracle births are not his thing, he used the BODY of a woman, Mary, this as scriptures prophesied: ’The SEED OF A WOMAN’... not the human PROCREATION (man and woman - seed and sperm, combo!)

The Holy SPIRIT OVERSHADOWS MARY, and you will conceive a child... and because of this the child will be called HOLY, the Son of the God most high... Son of God.

It’s not rocket science. The scriptures is not rocket science! It is FALSE LEADERS and untruthful ideologies that make it seem so!

So, Jesus, Son of God, continued in his life to follow the guidance and commands of his heavenly Father... even unto DEATH.

syo, this is why we CONTINUE to say Jesus is SON OF GOD: because he did not sin as Adam did...

And because of this Jesus is REWARDED with being seated NEXT TO GOD IN HEAVEN.

syo, how do you envision JESUS sitting NEXT TO GOD and say Jesus IS GOD?

Even the disciple, STEPHEN, envisioning heaven opening, saw GOD SEATED ON HIS THRONE, and JESUS STANDING NEXT TO GOD.

This ‘seated’ and ‘standing’ annoy be so if both are GOD... GOD cannot be two persons with one being in a SERVENTILE standing position.

And even YHWH God prophesied:

• ‘He hold my SERVANT whom I have chosen. I will put MY SPIRIT upon him and he will do all that I send him to do’ (Isaiah 42:1)

Who is this SERVANT that God spoke of? Have you worked out that it is JESUS?

syo, since when is GOD A MAN, and GOD A SERVANT?

And when did YHWH pour out his Holy Spirit onto HIS SERVANT?

syo, if Jesus is God... why is he to sit as ‘KING’ in a limited human kingdom of creation when, as God he would be ‘King’ in the endless kingdom of Heaven?

What say you now to ‘Isnt the Son God’

 

[sojourner]

This is amazing non-science! ‘First among equals’... are you for real?

<sigh> In the Anglican Communion (I'm sure you have a problem with them, too), there is a college of bishops. The Archbishop of Canterbury is designated first among equals. In my own denomination, we have such a thing too. It's a thing. Learn it. Know it. Live it.

Trinity claims God is ONE but then SUBDIVIDES him into three

No. You're confused. That's not How it Works.

Wow, I want to redefine the word, ‘Tautology’ to mean this confusing trinity mess!!

Tautology: A statement that is true by necessity or by its logic.

But you what... Almighty God never said he was ONE GOD... he said he was the Israelites ONLY God!! Not quite the same thing...

Ever hear of Shema?

The references God made was that the Israelites were living among and surrounded by tribes and nations who believed in MULTIPLE GODs.

So? Got a problem with that?

There is no provision for God claiming to be ‘ONE GOD’ in respect of being a DEITY

"Hear, O Israel. The Lord our God, the Lord is One." It's in the book. Read it.

Moreover, since all three trinity persons are GOD, that makes them three head RULERS... which is POLYTHEISM!!!

No. Sorry. You're confused.

 

[sojourner]

I wonder if you realise I have been dealing with Trinitarians for more years than I care to remember...

And you still don't get us? Pitiful.

It is clear trinity policy to DENY the claims of all other Trinitarians if such denial attempt to declare trinity ‘fallacy truth’ to an opponent!!

Show me where it says that in the doctrine.

Your denial of trinity expositions that I have argued against for years is testament to the fallacy of trinity.

I don't care what other people say. I'm only interested in the orthodox doctrine. You're arguing what people say as if it's the real deal.

I do not wrote these things for fun nor malice but because they are exactly what Trinitarians have used in their defence against the truth I present to them

I haven't used them. No one I know uses them.

It really isn’t what you understand - it is what you have been indoctrinated to believe.

Test the sense and logic for yourself - How is trinity undivided when Jesus is man and the Father is God!!

Doesn't the bible ask, "Where can I flee from your presence?" in reference to God. We are inseparable from God, because we contain God's Spirit. We are not "divided" from God, except in our fantasies and confusion about who we are.

What purpose is there in three ABSOLUTE CO-EQUAL HEADS when ANYONE of them can do what ALL THREE can do by themself...

Who said they could? God spoke (word), and creation happened. The "word" became flesh and lived among us (Jesus).

What can the light do of its own?

How can the lamp be "lampy" if the light won't shine? How can the light be "lighty" if no one sees it? Everything is interconnected and interdependent. You're thinking atomistically and not organically.

The Father is the Lamp OWNER, the Son is the Lamp Holder, and the revelation is the light from the lamp.

No. That's not How it Works. You're confused.

Jesus did not direct himself... he was SENT BY THE FATHER. He said so I’m self in plain undeniable speech.

Jesus also said himself in plain, undeniable speech that he and the father are One.

 

[firedragon]

And you still don't get us? Pitiful.


Show me where it says that in the doctrine.


I don't care what other people say. I'm only interested in the orthodox doctrine. You're arguing what people say as if it's the real deal.


I haven't used them. No one I know uses them.


Doesn't the bible ask, "Where can I flee from your presence?" in reference to God. We are inseparable from God, because we contain God's Spirit. We are not "divided" from God, except in our fantasies and confusion about who we are.


Who said they could? God spoke (word), and creation happened. The "word" became flesh and lived among us (Jesus).


How can the lamp be "lampy" if the light won't shine? How can the light be "lighty" if no one sees it? Everything is interconnected and interdependent. You're thinking atomistically and not organically.


No. That's not How it Works. You're confused.


Jesus also said himself in plain, undeniable speech that he and the father are One.

So do you propose it’s stil monotheism?

 

[sojourner]

So do you propose it’s stil monotheism?

Of course it is. The doctrine clearly states that there is one God.