The Trinity in Luke 2:40-56

[Ellen Brown]

Tell me what I am supposed to see in Exodus? The incidents where God speaks to Moses are through an angel. God has never "stood and talked to anyone" for a very good reason.....

Moses once asked.....
“Please show me your glory.” 19 But he said: “I will make all my goodness pass before your face, and I will declare before you the name of Jehovah;+ and I will favor the one whom I favor, and I will show mercy to the one to whom I show mercy.” 20 But he added: “You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live.”

21 Jehovah said further: “Here is a place near me. Station yourself on the rock. 22 When my glory is passing by, I will place you in a crevice of the rock, and I will shield you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 After that I will take my hand away, and you will see my back. But my face may not be seen.” (Exodus 33:18-23)

Perhaps you missed that bit?

There are more. I am sorry I snapped at you. I must sleep now.

 

[lukethethird]

If Jesus is God, Luke 2:40-56 could (should?) be read as,

"Now the parents of God went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the Passover. And when God was twelve years old, they went up according to custom and when the feast was ended, as they were returning, God stayed behind in Jerusalem. The parents of God did not know it, but supposing God to be in their company they went a day's journey, and they sought God among their kinsfolk and acquaintances and when they did not find God, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking God. After three days they found God in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions and all who heard God were amazed at the understanding of God and His answers. And when they saw God they were astonished and the mother of God said to him, "God, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously." And God said to them, "How is it that you sought me? Did you not know that I must be in the house of my Father?" And they did not understand the saying which God spoke to them. And God went down with them and came to Nazareth and God was obedient to them and the mother of God kept all these things in her heart. And God increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man."
​

Right on, I think you nailed it.

 

[Niblo]

It is interesting that when I was Mormon, they said that God is "flesh and bone". I told them that since he is God, he can be what ever he wants to be. I think they were glad to be done with me.

I can't imagine why!

 

[Windwalker]

It wasn't Jesus in the beginning. It was the word that was in the beginning. Doesn't say a thing about Jesus in this verse.

I'm not sure what you think you are reading there, but verse 1 says the Logos was in the beginning. It's not until verse 14 that John then takes this eternal Logos which is identified as Divine in the 3rd clause of verse 1, and then clearly states, "The Logos became flesh", which is a direct reference to Jesus. So, "The Logos is God".... "The Logos became flesh." You don't see it's a continuous thought from verse 1 to verse 14, identifying Jesus directly with the eternal Logos?

Verse 14 says the word became Jesus. The word "became" is from the Greek word "genos" which basically means a beginning. In other words, Jesus had a beginning. God didn't have a beginning.

Correct. The flesh is temporal, Spirit is eternal. Spirit became flesh does not mean Spirit ceased to exist. It means it took a temporary form.

You seem unfamiliar with the doctrine of the hypostatic union, which is that Jesus Christ was both fully man and fully God. Fully man means he had a beginning, born of his mother in history. Fully God means he was eternal Spirit. Etc.

Regarding the OP, I pointed out how you can just as easily make a mockery using dualistic language to describe nonduality when you imagine the Omnipresent God, meaning God is everywhere at all time at once, doesn't exist somewhere, such as in you, or AS you. Is God a block of swiss cheese and you exist in the holes where God does not exist? How can God be omnipresent, yet be imagined as "outside" of you?

Please explain that, and then take a look at how you butchered the meaning in your OP by trying to force fit nondualistic truths into a construct of dualistic language, yet at the same time, you leave the Omnipresent God that somehow is imagined to not exist everywhere alone? Can you make God everywhere, but not everywhere at the same time? No? Then how is your OP any better at speaking truth? I think the atheist that denies God exists would have an easier job at that than you do.

Sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander, as they say.

 

[Windwalker]

There are several denominations that are Non-trinitarian.

Oh yes, I am familiar. I was part of one of these groups for several years of my life. While it sounded "logical", it missed the point. Likewise, Trinitarians who insist God has three "people" talking to each up there in the sky somewhere outside of us, are equally confused by their own dualistic thinking. It's just as much a dualistic projection as "Oneness", or radical monotheistic groups are doing.

It's all just flipsides of the same dualistic coin, like two five year olds saying, "You're stupid! No, you're stupid!", back and forth at each other, neither recognizing themselves in the other. Neither are willing to look at the absurdity of their own positions, to themselves, let alone with each other. It's arrogance, pride, and ego projections on the part of both parties.

Some think to say that certain denominations are not Christians.

That is because they mistake the unity found in tribalism with the Unity found in God. God becomes to them their tribal deity, not the God of all that is. In other words, it's the god of their egos projected as God. Hatred of others is proof of that.

I say that any "Christian" group who seeks to exclude anyone is likely satanic.

It certainly falls short of the Spirit of Truth. That much is certain.

 

[shunyadragon]

That's what the scriptures say, so yes. Please just accept my answer without telling me how naive or anything like that I am. That gets boring real quickly.

This helps put your beliefs in perspective. In the previous thread you vaguely defended your beliefs from the perspective that others do not understand the scriptures. Actually your beliefs as described are very very similar to JW, or possibly Mormon, but Mormons believe in 'Flesh and Bone God(s).'. There are many, if not most, Christians believe that Jesus Christ is God based on what they 'believe' the scriptures say. They use scripture to justify the belief that Jesus did not have a beginning nor ending..

From my perspective neither your view, nor that of traditional Christianity and the fundamentalist view of scripture have a coherent argument, because of the lack of provenance of scripture, inconsistence of scripture, and the matter of fact evidence of the world we live in.

Reality is not boring at all, but hiding is,

 

[Desert Snake]

There is only one YHWH

^

Exodus 3:13-15....from the Tanakh....

"And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"

^

14

God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"


15 And God said

So, which is it, Ehyeh, or Yahweh...are you even reading what you post?

I don't know where you get your information from, but it is seldom accurate.

^

Not as "a god" or a false god - angels were addressed as God Almighty himself (elohim, YWHW, etc). Moses was addressed as God Almighty himself (elohim). The Jewish people were referred to more generally as gods, plural, but it's the same word (elohim).

Hmm heres a post that that says Yahweh isn't only as a specific personal name...
Lol

Anyways, the contradictory nonsense that you post, is easily refuted by the Bible.

 

[iam1me]

Anyways, the contradictory nonsense that you post, is easily refuted by the Bible.

Don't know why you are replying to another, older thread here when I have been involved in this thread at all. At any rate, what I said is completely supported by scripture. Your positions are dependent upon ignoring the scriptures. When you are ready to discuss what the scriptures say - rather than how you can twist them to support your doctrine - let me know.

 

[duvduv]

Then one could have Jesus say on the cross:
"Myself, myself, why have I forsaken myself?"

 

[whirlingmerc]

If Jesus is God, Luke 2:40-56 could (should?) be read as,

"Now the parents of God went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the Passover. And when God was twelve years old, they went up according to custom and when the feast was ended, as they were returning, God stayed behind in Jerusalem. The parents of God did not know it, but supposing God to be in their company they went a day's journey, and they sought God among their kinsfolk and acquaintances and when they did not find God, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking God. After three days they found God in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions and all who heard God were amazed at the understanding of God and His answers. And when they saw God they were astonished and the mother of God said to him, "God, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously." And God said to them, "How is it that you sought me? Did you not know that I must be in the house of my Father?" And they did not understand the saying which God spoke to them. And God went down with them and came to Nazareth and God was obedient to them and the mother of God kept all these things in her heart. And God increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man."
​

Actually not... because of something else... the hypostatic union.
Jesus was fully God and fully manIn this humanity 'he grew in wisdom and knowledge and in favor of God and men" as Like said

in his divining Col 1:5 the world could be made through him and for him

 

[74x12]

Jehovah's witnesses and others who do not pray to Jesus cannot receive the holy Spirit. You have to ask Jesus to receive the holy Spirit.

 

[Desert Snake]

John 1:18 then goes on to says....."No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him."

Genesis 12:7

Don't know why you are replying to another, older thread here when I have been involved in this thread at all. At any rate, what I said is completely supported by scripture. Your positions are dependent upon ignoring the scriptures. When you are ready to discuss what the scriptures say - rather than how you can twist them to support your doctrine - let me know.

More nonsense. You haven't refuted anything. Quoting that was to show a opinion referring to yahweh usage.

 

[Desert Snake]

Jehovah's witnesses and others who do not pray to Jesus cannot receive the holy Spirit. You have to ask Jesus to receive the holy Spirit.

They don't have to, all they have to do is read the Bible.

 

[74x12]

They don't have to, all they have to do is read the Bible.

They'll never understand it without the holy Spirit.

 

[Desert Snake]

Then one could have Jesus say on the cross:
"Myself, myself, why have I forsaken myself?"

Actually, no. The premise is a nonsensical bit of changed scripture, has nothing to do with trinitarianism.

 

[Desert Snake]

They'll never understand it without the holy Spirit.

That could be.

 

[iam1me]

More nonsense. You haven't refuted anything. Quoting that was to show a opinion referring to yahweh usage.
That's a pretty important opinion for it have changed already.

You didn't quote my opinion changing on the matter - so, again, not seeing the purpose of quoting me here.

 

[Katzpur]

Jesus always did his father's will. As such he was the express image of his father, but that doesn't make him God. He is the son of God. There is no way a son can be his own father.

Of course there is no way a son can be his own father, but two different individuals may both share the same title: God.

 

[Desert Snake]

You didn't quote my opinion changing on the matter - so, again, not seeing the purpose of quoting me here.

To show an opinion regarding usage of the name Yahweh. No idea why that bothers you. If you aren't claiming importance to your opinions, or relevance, then fine.

 

[74x12]

Of course there is no way a son can be his own father, but two different individuals may both share the same title: God.

"Of course there is no way" Is that so?

For with God nothing shall be impossible. (Luke 1:37)