The trinity is false - I have proof

[learner Daniel]

?? - The voice in Paul's head may well have been the voice of Jesus ... or it may have been a voice he attributed to Jesus .. but regardless .. who cares as this has nothing to do with the Trinity with respect to the fact that Jesus never taught that he was God "The Father" .. and not that it matters .. for reasons previously explained, but Paul does not teach that Jesus is "The Father" either .. but again .. we don't care what Paul thinks as we are after what Jesus taught

John 8 and 10 or did you miss the times where the Jewish People were going to stone him for claiming to be God?

Matthew 26:65
Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

Mark 14:64
Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

John 10:33
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

John 8
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

 

[learner Daniel]

John 3:16 and John 17:3 The way I look at it, all anyone needs is only one scripture, because Jesus never used the word trinity or any of the words that define the word trinity.

It's not very hard to disprove something Jesus never explains.

So What, the word did not exist at that time. In fact, it is not even a Greek or Hebrew word.

 

[learner Daniel]

The Trinitarian concept does not posit that creation came from nothing.

Genesis 1:1
King James Version
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

God creating matter in that verse shows us the power of God.

After that verse, The text uses the word Made or Make to reorganize matter.

It is really simple Hebrew.

- G2937 (ktisis): Creation, creature

Usage: The Hebrew verb "bara'" primarily means "to create" and is used in the Bible to denote the divine act of creation. It is a term that signifies the initiation of something new, often implying a creation ex nihilo (out of nothing), which is a unique attribute of God's creative power. Unlike other Hebrew words for making or forming, "bara'" is exclusively used in reference to God's creative acts, underscoring His sovereignty and omnipotence.

Strong's Hebrew: 1254. בָּרָא (bara') -- Create, shape, form

Mormons claim that matter was eternal like God, and their god was an exulted man who as god was subject to the laws of the universe.

 

[learner Daniel]

Can't help but notice the word " it " ^ above^ used in connection to the trinity concept or lack of "it"
People don't think of their triune God as an "it" but God's spirit (Psalm 104:30) is a neuter "it" - Numbers 11:17,25
So, a genderless "it" is Not a person
Just like a car or a ships sometimes is called as a 'she' but they remain as a neuter "it"
Greek grammar rules allow for a neuter to be referred to as a pronoun he or him, but that does Not change an "it" into a person
Even our 'spirit' is also a genderless "it" at Ecclesiastes 12:7 B

In Hebrew grammar, masculine and feminine genders are assigned to nouns regardless of whether they refer to something male or female, and this gender then affects the form of associated verbs and adjectives, essentially acting as a grammatical category to link words within a sentence rather than directly reflecting biological sex

 

[learner Daniel]

A while back a Southern Baptist leaving a restaurant at night saw me and said isn't it wonderful God made everything out of nothing
To me, I said that God's spirit is not a nothing - Psalm 104:30 - but something
As far as I know Baptist's do believe or accept a triune-person god

Right God is eternal and "he" did create matter where there was nothing.

 

[learner Daniel]

Please post what verse or verses you have in mind _______________________
God sent forth His spirit used in creating as per Psalm 104:30
God used His power and strength, His dynamic energy to create both the invisible and visible realm of existence - Isaiah 40:26

IT was in response to what you wrote. I did not need any verses to prove God is not limited, We both know he is eternal and all powerful.
I was going from what is known about the nature of God.

 

[learner Daniel]

' the God ' ' the Jesus ' and holy spirit
Who is the One who sends forth His spirit at Psalm 104:30 KJV

The Father sent Jesus, Both of them sent the Holy Spirit during the ministry of Jesus.

John 14:26: "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you"
John 20:21-23: "Just as the Father has sent me, I'm now sending you". Jesus then blew on his disciples and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit".
Luke 24:49: "And now I will send the Holy Spirit, just as my Father promised".

Ah, wife is kicking me off again

Good Night all

 

[metis]

' the God ' ' the Jesus ' and holy spirit
Who is the One who sends forth His spirit at Psalm 104:30 KJV

God of course. So? How does that supposedly refute the Trinitarian concept? Even after repeatedly being explained, it seems that you still don't understand it.

Let me simplify it one final time: Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of God but technically are not God or there would be three gods.

 

[metis]

Genesis 1:1
King James Version
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

God creating matter in that verse shows us the power of God.

After that verse, The text uses the word Made or Make to reorganize matter.

It is really simple Hebrew.

- G2937 (ktisis): Creation, creature

Usage: The Hebrew verb "bara'" primarily means "to create" and is used in the Bible to denote the divine act of creation. It is a term that signifies the initiation of something new, often implying a creation ex nihilo (out of nothing), which is a unique attribute of God's creative power. Unlike other Hebrew words for making or forming, "bara'" is exclusively used in reference to God's creative acts, underscoring His sovereignty and omnipotence.

Strong's Hebrew: 1254. בָּרָא (bara') -- Create, shape, form

Mormons claim that matter was eternal like God, and their god was an exulted man who as god was subject to the laws of the universe.

And the above somehow disproves the Trinitarian concept how?

 

[walt]

So What, the word did not exist at that time. In fact, it is not even a Greek or Hebrew word.

So what, I use the Bible to determine truth,...In fact.. I don't care about when the Greek or Hebrew word existed.. Respectfully I read what Jesus says and he says he is Gods Son and his Father is the only true God. John 3:16, 17:3; Matthew 16:13-17 and the apostles taught the same after Jesus went to heaven.

I think it is fine you believe what you do, I just have a different way based on Jesus words.

Why do you have to find a problem with the way I believe? I don't find a problem with your way of believing.

I have nothing against your way of thinking, I just like to use Jesus words to determine things. Why can't we both believe what we want to?

 

[Sargonski]

John 8 and 10 or did you miss the times where the Jewish People were going to stone him for claiming to be God?

Matthew 26:65
Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

Mark 14:64
Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

John 10:33
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

John 8
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

No Brother Dan - they do not wish to stone him for claiming to be "The Father" nor does a garbled sentence in John 8:58 have Jesus calling himself "The Father" .. one of the lamist of the lame attempts and claiming Jesus claimed to be "The Father" .

Now Bother Dan .. this calls for wisdom . You know that Jesus has told you who the author of confusion is - that things are not going to be straight forward and easy .. otherwise even the Pharisee's would be saved .. which in of itself shold have led you to dismiss this absurd interpretation / translation of the text before you.

but, what 10 x more mind bendingly absurd .. is the fact that this one short passage .. which is very vague any way you slice it or dice it .. which reads not that he is The Father but more like he is divine and has seen abraham and/or is saying he is a prophet as high as Abe .. but what ever the meaning .. this gibberish - stands against a backdrop of Jesus stating that the Father is someone other than him 100 times .. in very direct and not vague language .. over 100 times .. that Jesus teaches .. he is NOT the Father starting right from the lords Prayer "Our Father .. who Art in Heaven .. hallowed be thy name " not My name .. Not a rabbi standing on Earth .. but a God .. in heaven .. OK .. Earth - Heaven .. to the last words of Jesus "My God My God .. why have you forsaken me" This was after Jesus begging his God not to make him go through with the Sacrifice the night before .. The Will of Jesus .. not the Will of The Father.

Do you understand Brother Dan. .. the will of Jesus is not always the Will of the Father .. and further .. Jesus states coundless tiems that he is subservient to the will of the Fathert .. not an Equal.

Do you understand Brother Dan .. over 100 times .. Jesus says directly that he is not .. The Father. What mindless demon would drive you to hold up one vague garbled passage , a passage from John as opposed to the synoptic Gospels .. and pretend this carries any weight against the 100 times Jesus teaches you otherwise .. ??? Help me to understand from where this impulse comes .. will your faith crumble if the man made trinity doctrine turns out to be wrong ? or is it that you can not deal with the Biblical reality that God the Father can be a God .. and at the same time Jesus can be a lesser God .. and that the Chief God over the earth is neither of these two gods ..

Is this the poison lizard Daniel ? "monotheism" ? Who is Chief God over the earth at the time of Jesus Baptism ? Who was the Chief God over the earth prior to YHWH assuming the Title .. and which Son of God punts YHWH off the throne ? and after YHWH's death .. which God does Judaism resurrect ..

Answere these questions in your quest to extract the poison lizard .. and tell us the Hallowed name of the God of Jesus - the God of the Priestly order of Melchi-Zedek .. and God of Abraham.

“Are you the Christ,[cg] the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 “I am,” said Jesus" and how is it you were unable to figure out that the Christ .. "Son of the Blessed one" is not "The Father" .. but the Son of the God .. "Son of Man" . Please explain how you managed to post such nonsense .. of not other than copy and past from a snake charmer site .. you not really realizing what you are posting.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

LOL .. No .. While the Father is indeed a Holy Spirit of sorts .. the Holy Spirit is not "The Father" .. and The Father has a name btw a Hallowed name.

Now .. unfortunately for Matt 1:20 .. regardless of not providing proof .. in any way shape or form .. is not atually in the original version of the Story .. so sorry .. Let us not base foundation on interpolation ( there is no virgin birth in the original story) and do answer the question in relation to the author of confusion ..

Your commentary on the Logos is way off the mark .. ... Logos can mean Word .. Concept .. Plan. it depends on the context .. In a religious context the term means a conduit between man and God "The Logos" .. this is a very well understood concept in Platonic Philosophy .. one that the author of John used in an attempt to make Christianity appeal to the target audience who were Greek .. and thus all familiar with "The Logos" ... emissary between man and God .

Logos also means "Word" in context .. in the first line of John 1. .. so so you have different uses .. in one place meaning Emmissary between man and God .. in the next .. this Emissary .. is "The Word ofd God".

Jesus is a Priest of the Order Melchi-Zedek ... not of the Aaronite Priesthood .. not a levitical Priest .. Jesus is a Priest in the Order of the God El -- The Chief God in the Heavens .. Head of the Divine Council .. referred to as the "Congregation of EL" Psalm 82 .. and not the Lord YHWH ..nor Lord Jealous .. Jesus not abiding by either covenant .. which you should be happy about .. as nor does a follower of Jesus have to follow that covenant.

Revelation has nothing to do with this conversation ?! nothing to do with the fact that Jesus is not "The Father" who art in Heaven .. while Jesus is standing on the Earth because one is not the other .. this stated directly over 100 times by Jesus .. and in his last breath "My God .. My God .. why have you forsaken me" .. U understand ?

Face it , you just believe in more than one God.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

John 14:20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.

That's no proof whatsoever.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Since the Trinity is in the Bible it simply means they recognized it as a doctrine.

It's a doctrine all right, a false doctrine. It's not in the Bible. You haven't shown any verses saying there is a Trinity. I showed a verse that plainly says God is a Spirit. John 4:24

 

[learner Daniel]

God of course. So? How does that supposedly refute the Trinitarian concept? Even after repeatedly being explained, it seems that you still don't understand it.

Let me simplify it one final time: Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of God but technically are not God or there would be three gods.

 

[learner Daniel]

And the above somehow disproves the Trinitarian concept how?

It does not. The text shows us the power of G_d, that he is able and did create something aka matter where there was none.

 

[learner Daniel]

So what, I use the Bible to determine truth,...In fact.. I don't care about when the Greek or Hebrew word existed.. Respectfully I read what Jesus says and he says he is Gods Son and his Father is the only true God. John 3:16, 17:3; Matthew 16:13-17 and the apostles taught the same after Jesus went to heaven.

I think it is fine you believe what you do, I just have a different way based on Jesus words.

Why do you have to find a problem with the way I believe? I don't find a problem with your way of believing.

I have nothing against your way of thinking, I just like to use Jesus words to determine things. Why can't we both believe what we want to?

https://www.calvarychapelboston.com/Biblical%20Basis%20Trinity%20Bowman.pdf

Walt I am not sure what you believe. Are you Unitarian or what friend?

 

[learner Daniel]

So what, I use the Bible to determine truth,...In fact.. I don't care about when the Greek or Hebrew word existed.. Respectfully I read what Jesus says and he says he is Gods Son and his Father is the only true God. John 3:16, 17:3; Matthew 16:13-17 and the apostles taught the same after Jesus went to heaven.

I think it is fine you believe what you do, I just have a different way based on Jesus words.

Why do you have to find a problem with the way I believe? I don't find a problem with your way of believing.

I have nothing against your way of thinking, I just like to use Jesus words to determine things. Why can't we both believe what we want to?

I am often very tired and forget who is who and what they believe

 

[learner Daniel]

No Brother Dan - they do not wish to stone him for claiming to be "The Father" nor does a garbled sentence in John 8:58 have Jesus calling himself "The Father" .. one of the lamist of the lame attempts and claiming Jesus claimed to be "The Father" .

Now Bother Dan .. this calls for wisdom . You know that Jesus has told you who the author of confusion is - that things are not going to be straight forward and easy .. otherwise even the Pharisee's would be saved .. which in of itself shold have led you to dismiss this absurd interpretation / translation of the text before you.

but, what 10 x more mind bendingly absurd .. is the fact that this one short passage .. which is very vague any way you slice it or dice it .. which reads not that he is The Father but more like he is divine and has seen abraham and/or is saying he is a prophet as high as Abe .. but what ever the meaning .. this gibberish - stands against a backdrop of Jesus stating that the Father is someone other than him 100 times .. in very direct and not vague language .. over 100 times .. that Jesus teaches .. he is NOT the Father starting right from the lords Prayer "Our Father .. who Art in Heaven .. hallowed be thy name " not My name .. Not a rabbi standing on Earth .. but a God .. in heaven .. OK .. Earth - Heaven .. to the last words of Jesus "My God My God .. why have you forsaken me" This was after Jesus begging his God not to make him go through with the Sacrifice the night before .. The Will of Jesus .. not the Will of The Father.

Do you understand Brother Dan. .. the will of Jesus is not always the Will of the Father .. and further .. Jesus states coundless tiems that he is subservient to the will of the Fathert .. not an Equal.

Do you understand Brother Dan .. over 100 times .. Jesus says directly that he is not .. The Father. What mindless demon would drive you to hold up one vague garbled passage , a passage from John as opposed to the synoptic Gospels .. and pretend this carries any weight against the 100 times Jesus teaches you otherwise .. ??? Help me to understand from where this impulse comes .. will your faith crumble if the man made trinity doctrine turns out to be wrong ? or is it that you can not deal with the Biblical reality that God the Father can be a God .. and at the same time Jesus can be a lesser God .. and that the Chief God over the earth is neither of these two gods ..

Is this the poison lizard Daniel ? "monotheism" ? Who is Chief God over the earth at the time of Jesus Baptism ? Who was the Chief God over the earth prior to YHWH assuming the Title .. and which Son of God punts YHWH off the throne ? and after YHWH's death .. which God does Judaism resurrect ..

Answere these questions in your quest to extract the poison lizard .. and tell us the Hallowed name of the God of Jesus - the God of the Priestly order of Melchi-Zedek .. and God of Abraham.

“Are you the Christ,[cg] the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 “I am,” said Jesus" and how is it you were unable to figure out that the Christ .. "Son of the Blessed one" is not "The Father" .. but the Son of the God .. "Son of Man" . Please explain how you managed to post such nonsense .. of not other than copy and past from a snake charmer site .. you not really realizing what you are posting.

I never said, Jesus was claiming to be God the Father. He was claiming to be fully G_d.

Where is does Jesus and the Father disagrees? We know he was fully obedient to the Father.

John 8:28
So Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own. But just as the Father taught Me, I say these things.

Luke 22:39-42
Holman Christian Standard Bible
The Prayer in the Garden
39 He went out and made His way as usual to the Mount of Olives, and the disciples followed Him. 40 When He reached the place, He told them, “Pray that you may not enter into temptation.” 41 Then He withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, knelt down, and began to pray, 42 “Father, if You are willing, take this cup away from Me—nevertheless, not My will, but Yours, be done.”

Jesus said, “I seek not to please myself but him who sent me” (John 5:30)
John 6:38
Jesus said, "For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but the will of Him who sent me".

Other verses that show Jesus' submission to the Father include:
John 4:34
John 8:26
John 10:18
John 12:49-50
John 14:30-31
John 15:10

Jesus is both Divine by nature and submits to his Father.

Philippians 2:5-8
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

John 8:28-29
Then Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him."

John 14:10
Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

Luke 2:49
And He said to them, “Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father’s business?”

 

[learner Daniel]

It's a doctrine all right, a false doctrine. It's not in the Bible. You haven't shown any verses saying there is a Trinity. I showed a verse that plainly says God is a Spirit. John 4:24

We all know that God is spirit.

AMP
God is spirit [the Source of life, yet invisible to mankind], and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
AMPC
God is a Spirit (a spiritual Being) and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (reality).
MSG
God is sheer being itself—Spirit. Those who worship him must do it out of their very being, their spirits, their true selves, in adoration.”

https://www.calvarychapelboston.com/Biblical%20Basis%20Trinity%20Bowman.pdf