metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
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The trinity is false - I have proof
- Thread starter Starlight
- Start date
learner Daniel
Member
That is not disagreement, it is sadnessYou were told this in the post you are responding to .. what part of .. Jesus does not want to go through with the sacrifice .. how did you miss this the first 3 times ? .. the fact that he submits to the will of the father does not change the fact that he does so against his will.
42 “Father, if you are willing, take[de] this cup[df] away from me. Yet not my will but yours[dg] be done.” 43 [Then an angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44 And in his anguish[dh] he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.][di]
The tears of Blood is a later interpolation ... unfortunately but, it serves to highlight that Jesus really did not want to go through with it .. an angel had to come down and steady the poor Rabbi .. and then later when he cries out that God had forsaken him ... Jesus thought until the end that God would show up at some point and rescue him like was done with Issac.. remember poor Isaac Daniel ....
learner Daniel
Member
Psalm 104:30
Easy-to-Read Version
30 But when you send out your life-giving breath,[a]
things come alive, and the world is like new again!
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Footnotes
Psalm 104:30 life-giving breath Or “Spirit.”
learner Daniel
Member
1 Peter 3:17-20
Easy-to-Read Version
17 It is better to suffer for doing good than for doing wrong. Yes, it is better if that is what God wants.
18 Christ himself suffered when he died for you,
and with that one death he paid for your sins.
He was not guilty,
but he died for people who are guilty.
He did this to bring all of you to God.
In his physical form he was killed,
but he was made alive by the Spirit.[a]
19 And by the Spirit he went and preached to the spirits in prison. 20 Those were the spirits who refused to obey God long ago in the time of Noah. God was waiting patiently for people while Noah was building the big boat. And only a few—eight in all—were saved in the boat through the floodwater.
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Footnotes
1 Peter 3:18 by the Spirit Or “in the spirit.” Also in verse 19.
Friend, I understand that as being in the grave before his physical resurrection.
If I were to argue that Jesus was raised as a spirit, I would use:
1 Corinthians 15:42-49
Easy-to-Read Version
42 It will be the same when those who have died are raised to life. The body that is “planted” in the grave will ruin and decay, but it will be raised to a life that cannot be destroyed. 43 When the body is “planted,” it is without honor. But when it is raised, it will be great and glorious. When the body is “planted,” it is weak. But when it is raised, it will be full of power. 44 The body that is “planted” is a physical body. When it is raised, it will be a spiritual body.
There is a physical body. So there is also a spiritual body. 45 As the Scriptures say, “The first man, Adam, became a living person.]” But the last Adam is a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual man did not come first. It was the physical man that came first; then came the spiritual. 47 The first man came from the dust of the earth. The second man came from heaven. 48 All people belong to the earth. They are like that first man of earth. But those who belong to heaven are like that man of heaven. 49 We were made like that man of earth, so we will also be made like that man of heaven.
Apologies for answering this twice. Since the first reply, I've also remembered ─
1 Samuel 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.
Amos 3:6 Is a trumpet blown in a city / and the people are not afraid? / Does evil befall a city / unless the LORD has done it?
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.
Amos 3:6 Is a trumpet blown in a city / and the people are not afraid? / Does evil befall a city / unless the LORD has done it?
So it looks like God can not only do anything [he] wishes, but does it.
learner Daniel
Member
Isaiah 45:7
Easy-to-Read Version
7 I made the light and the darkness.
I bring peace, and I cause trouble.
I, the Lord, do all these things.
AMP
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing peace and creating disaster; I am the Lord who does all these things.
I was quoting the KJV, where 'evil' is the translation on each occasion.
In the examples from 1 Samuel 16:14 and from Isaiah 45:7, the word being translated as 'evil’ is Hebrew ra’, meaning ‘bad, evil’ (and translated as ‘evil’ in 442 of the 663 times it occurs in the KJV, so the net tells me).
In the third example, from Amos 3:6, the word is Hebrew re’eh, whose usual meaning is 'evil', but 'calamity' and 'disaster' are also found.
In the NRSVue (the most recent highly expert revision of the good ol' RSV) the translations are respectively
I Samuel 16:14 Now the spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.15And Saul’s servants said to him, “See now, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you. 16 Let our lord now command the servants who attend you to look for someone who is skillful in playing the lyre, and when the evil spirit from God is upon you, he will play it, and you will feel better.”
(I've added the extra because it emphasizes the translation.)
Isaiah 45:7 I form light and create darkness,
I make weal and create woe;
I the LORD do all these things.
I make weal and create woe;
I the LORD do all these things.
and
Amos 3:6 Is a trumpet blown in a city,
and the people are not afraid?
Does disaster befall a cityunless the LORD has done it?
So while 'evil' is a legitimate translation in each case, the judgment of the most recent translation. Just for completeness, I mention that the RSV uses 'evil', 'woe' and 'evil' respectively.
The moral of the story is that 'evil' is a legitimate translation in each case, but here and there translators have preferred slightly different words.
Yes, breath and spirit ( but Not a Spirit person ) but the 'breath of life ' - Genesis 2:7
And as Job 33:4 says God's own spirit made Job ... God's breath brought Job to life
In Scripture (Bible speak) the KJV 'evil' is Not synonymous with wrong doing, but disaster for the wicked - Psalm 73:2-19
This is because the un-repenting wicked will be ' destroyed forever ' - Psalm 92:7; Psalm 104:35; Psalm 145:20; Proverbs 2:22
Remember: chapter 15 of Corinthians is addressed to Jesus' brothers - (the brothers like the ones of Matthew 25:40 )
These brothers are the ones who are resurrected (raised) in a Spirit body in the first earlier resurrection of Rev. 20:6
The meek who inherit the Earth are resurrected in a physical body
They have a later of future resurrection. That is why Acts 24:15 uses the future tense ' that there will be' a resurrection....
Notice: a resurrection ( Not for the saints/holy ones- Dan. 7:18 ) but for the righteous and unrighteous ( KJV just & unjust )
Yes; God's holy spirit departed from Saul - 1st Samuel 18:10,12; 19:9; 28:15
By Saul's bad actions that choice is what made possible for a bad spirit to overtake Saul
Thus Saul's bad actions or choices were against God's protective spirit
Because God allowed that it can be said it was from God because God permitted that to happen
Saul wanted David's help - 1st Sam. 16:14-23; 17:15 - to calm him down
Saul was being dominated by his own bad spirit or state of mind that urged him to do wrong
The point is that God, when the mood takes [him], sends evil, as all three examples show.
And of course God has no objection to infanticide or abortion, as is made clear and express in
Hosea 13: 16 Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.
'dashed to pieces ' showed that the ->Assyrians <- were capable of such atrocities - Isaiah 7:8
Yes, Samaria was held as blood guilty - Amos 3:9-10
This is the god of the Tanakh, whose history is heavy with human sacrifice, mass rape, massacre of surrendered populations, murderous religious intolerance, and more. Don't take my word for it ─ it's all spelt out in the text. If you don't know where to look, just ask and I'll set out a few starters for you.
Of course it is disagreement .. the will of Jesus is not the same as the will of the father = the definition of disagreement. however .. if you wish to say the will of the father is not the same as the Son ... its all the same.
What is sad is this disingenuous oblivion .. and those spaghetti on wall "Thought Stopping" posts. What was that all about friend ? cutting and pastig reams of material from snake charmer site .. stuff yourself you have not read .. and do not understand .. in Herculean effort to avoid the "Bad Thought"
What is the bad thought you are trying to avoid Daniel -- that Jesus and the Father are not one in thought at all times ? ... that the Trinity is man made dogma - and not scripturally valid .. .. not believed by the early Christians .. nor the disciples .. which means you don't get to use John .. written ~110 --- prior to the divinity of Jesus growing bigger to include pre-existence.
What part of "John doesn't count" do you not understand .. as this is not the original version of the Story .. nor does it represent the beliefs of the early Christians .. in particular The Church of Jerusalem .. where Jesus does not even claim to be a God .. never mind claiming to be "The Father" .. something which would have been preposterous nonsense on Steroids to an early believer .. The Messiah is not the Father .. and they would have stoned someone for claiming this. .. but that is not why Jesus was killed .. He was killed for claiming to be the Messiah = The King of the Jews. The annointed on of God = King ... hence the annointing .. like Cyrus .. like David ..
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe the Trinity is not about turning Jesus into the Father although in a sense that does happen when the Spirit of God leaves Jesus on the cross and returns to being the Father albeit now the Father has a Jesus consciousness ie memory.That does not show the Trinity - Jesus is "the Logos" .. what does the Logos mean ? .. that Jesus is "The Word" the Physical representation of "Gods Word" according to the author of John. .. so of course the Father is in Jesus .. but this does not turn Jesus into "The Father" .. No .. Nyet .. Nada
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe Jesus does use words that define the Trinity.John 3:16 and John 17:3 The way I look at it, all anyone needs is only one scripture, because Jesus never used the word trinity or any of the words that define the word trinity.
It's not very hard to disprove something Jesus never explains.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe we can prove that God decribed it through Jesus.The above in no way disproves the concept of the Trinity, but then no one can prove it either as it is an abstract concept.
IMO, it makes no difference to me one way or another as it is virtually impossible to prove or disprove such a concept.
Nooooo .. no .. nooooo
Look -- you are trying to fit man made dogma into the mouth of Jesus .. rather than letting "the Word" speak. OK !?Now read once more prior to continuing.
The first thing to understand about the Trinity doctrine is that there is nothing to understand .. the trinity is "beyond understanding" NOT - "beyond human understanding" beyond understanding Period .. . OK .. u understand ? that not even God understands the Trinity .. because the Trinity makes no sense .. is not understandable because it is illogical .. anti logic .. anti reason .. anti thought. .. Jesus is both God .. The Father .. but he is a separate person .. separate mind .. separate will and Not God The Father in such a way as that only polytheism - dualism - anything but monotheism can make sense of.
And this was the problem the Trinity is supposed to solve .. the Trinity was about turning Christianity into a monotheistic religion.
Part 2 - The Trinity is "Man made" .. u understand ? "Man Made" -- u understand .. "Man Made"
Part 2A - Man Made = Not God made. U understand ? "Not God Made" .. u understand "Not God Made"
Part 3 - Homoosios - if you do not understand this word .. and what it meant to the the 700 year old school of Platonic Philosophy - then you have absolutly no understanding of Trinity Doctrine .. u understand ? " you have no understanding of trinity doctrine" .. the doctrine which is not understandable .. u understand ?
Part 4 -- The Trinity Doctrine = Homoosios .. u understand ?? The Trinity Doctrine = Homoousios
U understand ? if you do not understand the above word in bold .. then you don't understand the un understandable trinity doctrine" - an abomination by the hand of man .. having absolutely nothing to do with the "The Word - The Truth - the Way" .. nothing to do with any of the teachings of Jesus ..
Part 5 - 700 year old school of platonic Philosophy .. U understand ? that after the invetion of the Trinity = Homoosios = Platonic Philosophy .. Those touting this nonsensical gibberish tore down the 700 yr old school .. plunging the world into a period of darkness .. not to be lifted for over 1000 years. .. U understand ?
Part 6 - u understand logic ? Trinity = 1000 years of darkness .. the end of an age of reason and rational thought ..
Part 7 - Who is the Chief God on Earth .. Job 1:1 Matt 4:1 ----- u understand .. The tester of souls .. the one who tests the "Son of Man" prior to acivation of the divinity shard = Chief God on Earth
U understand ? "Chief God on Earth" . Do you ? Yes/No -
Part 7A - Stop lying to yourself .. Do you understand "Chief God on Earth" Yes/No ?
Part 8 - Chief God on Earth = Not monotheism u understand ? .. or do you wish to tell us that Jesus and Satan are exactly the same emination from the Godhead .. which is just polytheism by a different gnostic name meant to blur the difference in any case
Part 9 - No understanding of the true meaning of the story of Jesus is possible through a monotheistic lens. Monotheism another man made doctrine that the demiurge and author of confusion tried to fit into the Bible .. having nothing to do with "The word - The Truth - The Way"
U understand ? === "Author of Confusion" === Part 7A --- who is the author of confustion .. according to Jesus ? and what is the purpose of this confusion ? U understand ? Part 7A - What is the purpose of this confusion ? = Trinity U understand Trinity = Confusion !
Now tell us the purpose of this confusion .. according to Jesus ? and who is the author of this confusion ?
Part 10 - how on earth are you ever going to understand anything in the Bible if you don't know who the author of confusion is ?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Go for it.