The trinity is false - I have proof

[Hockeycowboy]

So what, I use the Bible to determine truth,...In fact.. I don't care about when the Greek or Hebrew word existed.. Respectfully I read what Jesus says and he says he is Gods Son and his Father is the only true God. John 3:16, 17:3; Matthew 16:13-17 and the apostles taught the same after Jesus went to heaven.

I think it is fine you believe what you do, I just have a different way based on Jesus words.

Why do you have to find a problem with the way I believe? I don't find a problem with your way of believing.

I have nothing against your way of thinking, I just like to use Jesus words to determine things. Why can't we both believe what we want to?

Because only one way can be correct, my friend. Right?

Am I right? Or am I wrong?

What does God want? Does it matter to Him?

What was God’s penalty if His people worshipped other gods?

Christian love,
Hockeycowboy

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Here's the thing. When he worked those miracles, it was the Father dwelling in that body that was working the miracles.

Was Jesus the only one in the Bible that performed miracles? What about Elijah? Or Elisha?

Was “the Father dwelling” in their bodies, then?

 

[YoursTrue]

Because only one way can be correct, my friend. Right?

Am I right? Or am I wrong?

What does God want? Does it matter to Him?

What was God’s penalty if His people worshipped other gods?

Christian love,
Hockeycowboy

When I first began my study with Jehovah's Witnesses, I had many questions. I was thrilled with what I was learning and still am although I resisted studying with them at first and actually would tell them to go away if they approached me or knocked on my door until certain situations occurred.
I went to synagogue basically all my life before that and we never opened a Tanach (basically the Old Testament said by some) but we would read some scriptures in the prayer book during the service, the same ones again and again. I had a King James Bible at home but never understood it. I celebrated certain holidays that were considered the "Jewish holidays." That's about it. Then later when I sang in church (by that time I was an atheist, but they paid me to sing which was nice and I loved the music so it was nice to get paid to do what I enjoyed so much) I was still an atheist and saw things in the church that even without knowing what the Bible said were questionable. The pastor did not really discuss what the Bible said when he gave his sermons. The choirmaster, while rather famous, also did not talk about the Bible and what it said.

 

[YoursTrue]

You're using an English translation that includes upper & lower case.

You're better versed at this than I am perhaps, so as I understand it (now), there were no upper and lower cases in the earliest manuscripts, right?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

When I first began my study with Jehovah's Witnesses, I had many questions. I was thrilled with what I was learning and still am although I resisted studying with them at first and actually would tell them to go away if they approached me or knocked on my door until certain situations occurred.
I went to synagogue basically all my life before that and we never opened a Tanach (basically the Old Testament said by some) but we would read some scriptures in the prayer book during the service, the same ones again and again. I had a King James Bible at home but never understood it. I celebrated certain holidays that were considered the "Jewish holidays." That's about it. Then later when I sang in church (by that time I was an atheist, but they paid me to sing which was nice and I loved the music so it was nice to get paid to do what I enjoyed so much) I was still an atheist and saw things in the church that even without knowing what the Bible said were questionable. The pastor did not really discuss what the Bible said when he gave his sermons. The choirmaster, while rather famous, also did not talk about the Bible and what it said.

It’s sad, isn’t it?

But, on another note (excuse the pun), you must have a pretty voice, getting paid to sing, huh?

 

[YoursTrue]

It’s sad, isn’t it?

But, on another note (excuse the pun), you must have a pretty voice, getting paid to sing, huh?

Evidently. As one ages, the voice can go also. Nevertheless, looking forward...The description of Babylon the Great with its (her) magnificence is certainly an apt description of -- false religion and what is destined to be destroyed, as foretold in the book of Revelation. Bejeweled, fabulous even with the music. I look forward to meeting Handel. Handel's oratorio The Messiah is all scriptural -- no interpretation. Beautiful, beautiful. I remember when I studied the Bible I gave the music back to the choirmaster. And I told him what the Bible said. Boy was he mad.

 

[YoursTrue]

It’s sad, isn’t it?

Yes. I would add pathetic to it also.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The Trinitarian concept in Catholicism has it that there are not three gods but one God with Jesus and the Holy Spirit being of the "essence" of God.

John L. McKenzie, S.J., a highly respected scholar and Catholic priest, ie. a trinitarian himself, in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of ‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are Gk (Greek) philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.”—(Italics, underlining, & bold type are mine.) (New York, 1965), p. 899.

He was an honest scholar. He did not allow bias to color his objectivity.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

@YoursTrue , @cataway , @walt , @URAVIP2ME , @Eli G , we had an excellent meeting tonight, eh?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Evidently. As one ages, the voice can go also. Nevertheless, looking forward...The description of Babylon the Great with its (her) magnificence is certainly an apt description of -- false religion and what is destined to be destroyed, as foretold in the book of Revelation. Bejeweled, fabulous even with the music. I look forward to meeting Handel. Handel's oratorio The Messiah is all scriptural -- no interpretation. Beautiful, beautiful. I remember when I studied the Bible I gave the music back to the choirmaster. And I told him what the Bible said. Boy was he mad.

Yes, meeting some of those people - non-worshippers of Jehovah - in the Resurrection will be wonderful, too!

Can you imagine the huge Family Tree we’ll discover?!!!!

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, meeting some of those people - non-worshippers of Jehovah - in the Resurrection will be wonderful, too!

Can you imagine the huge Family Tree we’ll discover?!!!!

ah yes...looking forward to it, thank you for the thought.

 

[YoursTrue]

You're better versed at this than I am perhaps, so as I understand it (now), there were no upper and lower cases in the earliest manuscripts, right?

@metis I elucidate a bit -- according to the dictionary, How the Greeks Influenced Our Alphabet. At first there were only what we know as upper case letters. Live and learn. That is another reason why everlasting life is such a wonderful promise.

 

[cataway]

so much teaching to do .helping so many to catch-up on things that have happened

 

[metis]

I went to synagogue basically all my life before that and we never opened a Tanach

Didn't you have Torah study? At the synagogue I belonged to, we had it most Shabbos mornings.

 

[metis]

John L. McKenzie, S.J., a highly respected scholar and Catholic priest, ie. a trinitarian himself, in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of ‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are Gk (Greek) philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.”—(Italics, underlining, & bold type are mine.) (New York, 1965), p. 899.

He was an honest scholar. He did not allow bias to color his objectivity.

I'm familiar with him, and what you cite is his opinion.

"Essence" was indeed a factor as records were kept from the Council at Nicaea. Now, do those records actually say "essence"? Not as far as I know. But scholars in that region back then would know it's use.

However, to complicate things, there was a compromise at Nicaea to try and bring the Arians aboard and into the Church, which somewhat succeeded. So, the creed is hard to take seriously at the literalistic level.

BTW, I am not personally a Trinitarian.

 

[YoursTrue]

Didn't you have Torah study? At the synagogue I belonged to, we had it most Shabbos mornings.

Do you remember what you studied and whether the information was in published form, as in a book, or was it designed specifically for your synagogue. And curiously I do wonder why you left and went back to catholicism, if that's what you did. I remember when I was in the class for high schoolers during the week aside from weekly sabbath service with my family on Friday night (it was a reform synagogue with a rather famous rabbi, won't go into that now in a upscale community) the main horrible teaching I remember was that God could be like a big eye that never blinks. Which is, I believe, what that eye on the dollar bill may represent, a Masonic symbol not sure. But that's basically what I remember -- plus -- I sang at the confirmation ceremony for graduating students at the synagogue. Yes, it was reform. The one thing I remember the rabbi talking about was when the priest was going to the altar the Torah says he should not have his naked parts showing. And that is true. But that's about the ONLY thing I learned from his sermons, but now that you mention it, I'm going to ask my cousin who went to the same synagogue, her father was a doctor and we had dinner with the rabbi at my uncle's house. Except one time he was saying in a sermon to the congregation that his train was late and things happen. Like the one that says "bad things happen to good people." Virtually nothing more. And that's about it. Yes, the congregation had a prayer book they followed for Shabbos services, repetitions of some scriptures again and again ritually. When I went to college I checked out other forms of worship, never figured anything was true until I studied the Bible later on. And realized and believe it is telling me the truth.
I can only figure you wanted to see basically what Judaism was teaching. Certainly I would say the world of religion is a mixed up place and I know and believe that God will clear it up. I am happy with what I have learned about Babylon the Great & false religion and God. I know this was a longer post than I usually write, so hope you have a good day.

 

[Muffled]

Nooooo .. no .. nooooo Look -- you are trying to fit man made dogma into the mouth of Jesus .. rather than letting "the Word" speak. OK !?
Now read once more prior to continuing.

The first thing to understand about the Trinity doctrine is that there is nothing to understand .. the trinity is "beyond understanding" NOT - "beyond human understanding" beyond understanding Period .. . OK .. u understand ? that not even God understands the Trinity .. because the Trinity makes no sense .. is not understandable because it is illogical .. anti logic .. anti reason .. anti thought. .. Jesus is both God .. The Father .. but he is a separate person .. separate mind .. separate will and Not God The Father in such a way as that only polytheism - dualism - anything but monotheism can make sense of.

And this was the problem the Trinity is supposed to solve .. the Trinity was about turning Christianity into a monotheistic religion.

Part 2 - The Trinity is "Man made" .. u understand ? "Man Made" -- u understand .. "Man Made"

Part 2A - Man Made = Not God made. U understand ? "Not God Made" .. u understand "Not God Made"

Part 3 - Homoosios - if you do not understand this word .. and what it meant to the the 700 year old school of Platonic Philosophy - then you have absolutly no understanding of Trinity Doctrine .. u understand ? " you have no understanding of trinity doctrine" .. the doctrine which is not understandable .. u understand ?

Part 4 -- The Trinity Doctrine = Homoosios .. u understand ?? The Trinity Doctrine = Homoousios

U understand ? if you do not understand the above word in bold .. then you don't understand the un understandable trinity doctrine" - an abomination by the hand of man .. having absolutely nothing to do with the "The Word - The Truth - the Way" .. nothing to do with any of the teachings of Jesus ..

Part 5 - 700 year old school of platonic Philosophy .. U understand ? that after the invetion of the Trinity = Homoosios = Platonic Philosophy .. Those touting this nonsensical gibberish tore down the 700 yr old school .. plunging the world into a period of darkness .. not to be lifted for over 1000 years. .. U understand ?

Part 6 - u understand logic ? Trinity = 1000 years of darkness .. the end of an age of reason and rational thought ..

Part 7 - Who is the Chief God on Earth .. Job 1:1 Matt 4:1 ----- u understand .. The tester of souls .. the one who tests the "Son of Man" prior to acivation of the divinity shard = Chief God on Earth

U understand ? "Chief God on Earth" . Do you ? Yes/No -

Part 7A - Stop lying to yourself .. Do you understand "Chief God on Earth" Yes/No ?

Part 8 - Chief God on Earth = Not monotheism u understand ? .. or do you wish to tell us that Jesus and Satan are exactly the same emination from the Godhead .. which is just polytheism by a different gnostic name meant to blur the difference in any case

Part 9 - No understanding of the true meaning of the story of Jesus is possible through a monotheistic lens. Monotheism another man made doctrine that the demiurge and author of confusion tried to fit into the Bible .. having nothing to do with "The word - The Truth - The Way"

U understand ? === "Author of Confusion" === Part 7A --- who is the author of confustion .. according to Jesus ? and what is the purpose of this confusion ? U understand ? Part 7A - What is the purpose of this confusion ? = Trinity U understand Trinity = Confusion !

Now tell us the purpose of this confusion .. according to Jesus ? and who is the author of this confusion ?

Part 10 - how on earth are you ever going to understand anything in the Bible if you don't know who the author of confusion is ?

I believe what the Bible says. You should try it.

 

[Muffled]

Go for it.

John 14

 

[cataway]

I'm playing devil's advocate here because I'm no longer a Christian, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on the scriptures that reference God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I noticed that you've only highlighted two verses in an attempt to substantiate your argument; however, there are clearly more in the Bible that appear to support the concept of the Trinity that you evidently haven't considered. What do you think about these scriptures, Starlight?

2 Corinthians 3:14
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."

Romans 15:30
"I urge you, brothers and sisters, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in my struggle by praying to God for me.”

Jude 1:20-21
“But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

1 Peter 1:2
"Who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.”

Matthew 3:16-17
"And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

Matthew 28:18-20
"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

In addition to these verses, I'm including this Christian apologetics source, which provides a plethora of other verses in the Bible in reference to the Trinity.

What does the Bible teach about the Trinity?

I used to believe in the Trinity doctrine when I was still a devout Christian, but I've since come to believe that it, like stories about Jesus, has pagan roots. I decided to reexamine it and conduct my own research to uncover its true origins after reading some informative posts about it by another member. It's similar to how I decided to reject my Christian-indoctrinated beliefs about Satan and demons after reading some informative posts by a Baháʼí member.

As a former Christian, I now believe that the Trinity doctrine was copied and adapted from paganism, and I think that these two articles explain why.

First article: Pagan Roots of the Trinity Doctrine

Second article: How Ancient Trinitarian Gods Influenced Adoption of the Trinity

the scriptures you used ,,,,,do what for you ?

 

[cataway]

Pepper you have a vivid imagination