The Trinity

[dawny0826]

No, of course not. But He is also Father to His Son, Jesus Christ, just as you are the mother of your children. But just as you and your children aren't one being, neither are God the Father and His Son.

They are manifestations of ONE God.

Just as mother, daughter and sister are roles of one ME.

The trinity is a truth imbedded deep in my heart and soul. It makes perfect sense and means the world to me. I wish you could understand it as I do. It's really quite lovely.

 

[Katzpur]

They are manifestations of ONE God.

Isn't that modalism? If you don't know, maybe someone else does.

Just as mother, daughter and sister are roles of one ME.

I'm not sure you're getting my point, Dawn. You are not ONE being, so the fact that you have multiple roles is not the same situation as exists in the Trinity at all. You are the mother to your children and you are the daugher of your parents. You're not your own mother or your own daughter. But if the Father and the Son are one in the trinitarian sense of the word, that would make the Father be the same being as the Son. You have to have two distinct beings in order to have a relationship between them.

The trinity is a truth imbedded deep in my heart and soul. It makes perfect sense and means the world to me. I wish you could understand it as I do. It's really quite lovely.

I'm glad it makes sense to you, Dawn. I wish I could understand it, too, because I have really tried. I guess I'll just have to be content to know God in the way people did back before the Nicene Creed was written.

 

[Katzpur]

See, I've never seen how this is different from the BoM version of the Godhead:

I think the real difference lies in our belief that both the Father and the Son are corporeal beings. Obviously, this would make it quite impossible for the Father and the Son to be a single essence. When pressed, some trinitarians are quite willing to admit that the three members of the Godhead are, in fact, distinct. I just haven't ever been able to get an answer from them as to (assuming they are distinct), how they are also "one." It always gets back to, "They're one essence," or "one substance." But seldom can anybody define those words other than to say they are synonyms for each other or synonyms for the word "being," and nobody can explain to me what a "being" is, except to say that that's what God is.

 

[dawny0826]

Isn't that modalism? If you don't know, maybe someone else does.

This is dealing with form.

I'm not sure you're getting my point, Dawn.

And I'm not quite sure you're getting mine.

You are not ONE being, so the fact that you have multiple roles is not the same situation as exists in the Trinity at all.

Yes it is. You're not going to understand me because you reject the Trinity. I am ONE person. I am ONE being. I am one Dawn. My roles are parts that I play AS Dawn Renee.

I view the Trinity the very same way. God is GOD ALMIGHTY. One God. However, He has roles, forms, manifestations that He takes on. He is Father. He is Christ. He is Spirit. All God but different roles that He has.

You are the mother to your children and you are the daugher of your parents. You're not your own mother or your own daughter.

You're not following my example at all. You're picking it to pieces. (No offense, meant.) This is how our faiths are very different. You're trying to explain logically something that isn't logical but mysterious.

It really DOES (or can) make sense if you're following me here. I don't think you can for the same reasons I can't understand your views of the Godhead.

But if the Father and the Son are one in the trinitarian sense of the word, that would make the Father be the same being as the Son. You have to have two distinct beings in order to have a relationship between them.

They are the same in the essence that they are both manifestations of God. As my roles as wife and mom are linked because they're roles in MY LIFE.

You place mental limits on God because this is how you've been taught within your faith. I don't mean that as a slam. It's the truth. I view God differently. God has no limits to me. In my mind, it's totally possible for God to be Christ Jesus...on earth...showing us in the flesh how to live and FATHER...in Heaven...interacting with in essence, Himself. It does sound crazy. It soes seem impossible. But NOTHING is impossible with God.

Christ and God the Father are two distinct beings in the sense that Christ, the SON...had a SPECIFIC purpose(s) as God the Father has/had SPECIFIC purposes. The Holy Spirit guides and comforts and moves about and within us all yet all three are manifestations of one miraculous, AWESOME God.

I'm glad it makes sense to you, Dawn. I wish I could understand it, too, because I have really tried.

It's not a concept that can be overanalyzed or rationalized, Kathryn. It's a concept that you have to accept on faith. I respect the LDS because there are answers and logical explanations to many of the themes within the Christian faith, including the nature of the Godhead.

I guess I'll just have to be content to know God in the way people did back before the Nicene Creed was written.

I'm not following you here. And with all due respect, those who were present, especially on the day of Pentecost, may very well have understood the Trinity.

You and I will never know for sure what they believed. We trust what we've been taught.

There's no truth as beautiful to me in my life than the truth in my heart that God loved me so much, HE died for me.

 

[rocka21]

this is a interesting way i have heard it described......


Father - sun

Jesus- light

Holy Ghost- heat


you have the sun. the sun gives off light. the sun gives off heat. all three are separate but they are still all the sun.

the father is the ( i am). the son is the ( light of the world). the holy ghost is the ( feeling or fire).

he is, you see him, you feel him, and these three are ONE.

 

[Katzpur]

Dawn,

I'm not going to address each of your points because we do seem to be at an impasse. Neither one of us seems to be getting our point across very well. I would like to comment on a few of the things you said, though.

You're not following my example at all. You're picking it to pieces. (No offense, meant.)

I apologize if that's how it came across, but your example is quite flawed in my opinion.

This is how our faiths are very different.

And here I was starting to think that they were really quite similar.

You're trying to explain logically something that isn't logical but mysterious.

From my perspective, it's not mysterious, Dawn, but completely logical. The Godhead of the scriptures is far more understandable than the Trinity of the Creeds. But if you understand it, as you say you do, that's all that matters.

You place mental limits on God because this is how you've been taught within your faith. I don't mean that as a slam. It's the truth. I view God differently. God has no limits to me.

I place no limits on God, Dawn. None whatsoever. Honestly, that really did come across as sort of a slam. I can't imagine why you would believe that my faith teaches me that God has limits. I see God the way I do, not out of a need to explain Him in terms I can understand, but because of what I believe to be revealed truth.

In my mind, it's totally possible for God to be Christ Jesus...on earth...showing us in the flesh how to live and FATHER...in Heaven...interacting with in essence, Himself. It does sound crazy. It soes seem impossible. But NOTHING is impossible with God.

Nothing is impossible with God, but neither is God the author of confusion.

There's no truth as beautiful to me in my life than the truth in my heart that God loved me so much, HE died for me.

And I can say the same thing, which is why I am confused as to why you said how different our faiths are.

 

[writer]

23 nobody can explain to me what a "being" is
U. You're a human being

22 I'm glad it makes sense to you, Dawn. I wish I could understand it, too, because I have really tried.
it's not a matter o' tryin. It's a matter of meeting. The Being. The Person. I am. Godman. Jesus Christ

I guess I'll just have to be content to know God in the way people did back before the Nicene Creed was written.
iz correct. There were unbelieving Jews and polytheist Romans long before the Nicene Creed was written. Jus like now

 

[dawny0826]

I apologize if that's how it came across, but your example is quite flawed in my opinion.

Okay.

And here I was starting to think that they were really quite similar.

When it comes to how we view the Godhead, yes, our faiths are very different. Doesn't discount all that we do have in common though.

From my perspective, it's not mysterious, Dawn, but completely logical. The Godhead of the scriptures is far more understandable than the Trinity of the Creeds.

Remember, that I understood the Trinity before I knew of the Creeds. My understanding came years after being taught that the Trinity existed as well.

I place no limits on God, Dawn. None whatsoever. Honestly, that really did come across as sort of a slam.

That comment wasn't meant as something personal against you or your faith, Kathryn. I hope you know me better than that by now.

We're debating on a topic that is very important within my faith...in fact it's the central core of my faith. By your explanations, it did kind of seem to me that you were implying that there are limits to what God can do.

I mean, if it's impossible for God and Christ to be the same person...then there is an established limit. I don't understand. I understood by what you posted that...because God is the Father and Christ is the Son...it's impossible that they can be one in the same. That's impossible. They can be one in the same in purpose but not one in the same literally.

I believe it's totally possible for them to be manifestations of the same entity. That's nothing personal against you or those of your faith. This is how I've interpreted what you've explained to me.

I wasn't trying to make this personal and I apologize if it came across that way.

Nothing is impossible with God, but neither is God the author of confusion.

No, He's not.

I guess what I'm not understanding is...by your logic...if nothing is impossible with God...why is the Trinity impossible?

And I can say the same thing, which is why I am confused as to why you said how different our faiths are.

My thoughts haven't changed about you and those of your faith. I care very much for you all and I totally acknowledge all of our similarities. There are many. The Trinity is one of those areas where we don't see eye to eye. That's truth.

The Trinity just happens to be the central focus of my faith. I'm confused about my religious station at this point in my life. I have a lot of frustration and confusion about religion but the core of my faith is the only thing that I am confident in. Perhaps, I've been overly agressive in this thread. If so, I apologize.

I care about you Kathryn. I have a lot of respect for you. I apologize if I've hurt or offended you.

I often wish I could let myself go and believe as you do. I mean that.

 

[Katzpur]

When it comes to how we view the Godhead, yes, our faiths are very different. Doesn't discount all that we do have in common though.

That's good to know, Dawn.

Remember, that I understood the Trinity before I knew of the Creeds. My understanding came years after being taught that the Trinity existed as well.

Obviously we have both been influenced by what we have been taught.

That comment wasn't meant as something personal against you or your faith, Kathryn. I hope you know me better than that by now.

I do, which is why I was surprised to hear you say what you did.

We're debating on a topic that is very important within my faith...in fact it's the central core of my faith. By your explanations, it did kind of seem to me that you were implying that there are limits to what God can do.

I can see why it would come across that way.

I mean, if it's impossible for God and Christ to be the same person...then there is an established limit. I don't understand. I understood by what you posted that...because God is the Father and Christ is the Son...it's impossible that they can be one in the same. That's impossible. They can be one in the same in purpose but not one in the same literally.

Your point is well taken. I guess the best way to explain myself is to say that it's impossible for God to be something He isn't.

I believe it's totally possible for them to be manifestations of the same entity. That's nothing personal against you or those of your faith. This is how I've interpreted what you've explained to me.

I understand. Thank you for clarifying.

I wasn't trying to make this personal and I apologize if it came across that way.

No problem. This is just something we both feel incredibly strongly about. It's inevitable that our differences of opinion will sometimes be misread. I know you would never intentionally hurt me or anyone else.

My thoughts haven't changed about you and those of your faith. I care very much for you all and I totally acknowledge all of our similarities. There are many. The Trinity is one of those areas where we don't see eye to eye. That's truth.

Yes, it is.

Perhaps, I've been overly agressive in this thread. If so, I apologize.

Please don't. It's actually good to know you have a little bit of fight in you!

I care about you Kathryn. I have a lot of respect for you. I apologize if I've hurt or offended you.

Likewise, Dawn.

 

[Muffled]

I think it helps if you imagine the Trinity as a mystical adjunct of Jesus Christ himself. That is...

"I am the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Spirit)".​

Now say this to yourself and visualize. Speak in the first person, as though you were the one saying it applicable to yourself.

To me, what resulted from this was an understanding that the Three are One in the sense that the Father is the Eternal, the Son is His transient hypostasis (Jesus, who lived and died on Earth in mortal life) and the Holy Spirit is the immortal part or essence that binds the two (Father and Son). Hence, the Holy Spirit is properly thought of as female (as the Father begets the Son through the power of the Spirit).

The transcendent aspect is in the comprehension that all three unified essences are in Man: male and female. The Trinity is not mere theology: it is wholly resident in every human being.

Does that help?

Jesus does make these statements. He does not see himself as having a separate identity from the Father which is basically what the Doctrine of the Trinity suggests.
Saying that the persons don't have separate personalities breaks the definition of person. If God has one identity He is one but if He has three identities He is three and therefore not one. Since the Bible says that He is one, the three persons concept is totally bogus and borders on idolatry.

The distinctions between the Father, Son and Paraclete are not that of character. The son is just as immortal as the Father but the body is not. It ought to be obvious that God is not a body, He is a spirit as the Bible states.

The Paraclete in essence has no gender but in practice is both. The idea that creation of babies is strictly a female occupation puts the cart before the horse. It is God who created male and female and He who can create whatever and whenever He wishes without having to go through the aleady existing way of procreation.

 

[Muffled]

This is dealing with form.


You're not going to understand me because you reject the Trinity. I am ONE person. I am ONE being. I am one Dawn. My roles are parts that I play AS Dawn Renee.

I view the Trinity the very same way. God is GOD ALMIGHTY. One God. However, He has roles, forms, manifestations that He takes on. He is Father. He is Christ. He is Spirit. All God but different roles that He has.

Some of your statements do appear to be modalism. It isn't quite the same. God is a spirit and as such can inhabit bodies in the same way that our spirits can and do but with God the spirit is omnipresent which means that while the spirit of God is in Jesus He is also everywhere else at the same time. This takes on even more meaning with the Paraclete (Holy Spirit) who is able to control the body of a believer as though it were His own body if we let Him and this can occur in a multitude of people at the same time.

 

[Quiddity]

Good, 'cause I'm already lost.

The Trinity tends to do that eh?

If they are truly distinct from one another, in what way are they "one"?

James always seems to do a better job then me at explaining such things. I'll resurrect one of his old posts.

God is One in His Divine Essence, His substance if you like, but He is made up of three Hypostases. Hypostasis is usually translated into English as Person, but that's a fairly poor translation, it's more like personal essence, that which makes an individual a unique person. There really isn't a good analogy that can be used because this is utterly other than all beings that we have experience of in real life. The best way I can describe it is this: a human has one essence (that which makes him human) and one hypostasis (that which makes him uniquely him). God has one Essence (that which makes Him Divine) but three Hypostases. He is, then, One God (one individual) in three Hypostases and is always, simultaneously, One according to His essence but Three in His Hypostases. I'm sure that my description fails at many levels, but we were asked to explain in our own words so I can't call on the words of the Fathers. It is impossible to really grasp the Trinity with our rational mind (hence us calling it a Mystery) so I'd be unsurprised if people don't follow my attempt to explain. You can pretty much guarantee that if someone tells you the Trinity is 'simple' they don't have a clear idea of what it means themselves.

Thanks James!

 

[Katzpur]

God is One in His Divine Essence, His substance if you like, but He is made up of three Hypostases. Hypostasis is usually translated into English as Person, but that's a fairly poor translation, it's more like personal essence, that which makes an individual a unique person. There really isn't a good analogy that can be used because this is utterly other than all beings that we have experience of in real life. The best way I can describe it is this: a human has one essence (that which makes him human) and one hypostasis (that which makes him uniquely him). God has one Essence (that which makes Him Divine) but three Hypostases. He is, then, One God (one individual) in three Hypostases and is always, simultaneously, One according to His essence but Three in His Hypostases. I'm sure that my description fails at many levels, but we were asked to explain in our own words so I can't call on the words of the Fathers.

Actually, that makes more sense than just about any other explanation I've heard yet and, with a little stretching, I can almost reconcile it to my own belief. If I had more time, I'd like to see how close it actually is. Unfortunately, this is a super busy week for me. (Unlike everybody else, of course. )

It is impossible to really grasp the Trinity with our rational mind (hence us calling it a Mystery) so I'd be unsurprised if people don't follow my attempt to explain. You can pretty much guarantee that if someone tells you the Trinity is 'simple' they don't have a clear idea of what it means themselves.

That's an interesting comment, because the two people on this forum who have told me that it makes perfect sense to them haven't even come close to being able to explain it. One of them at least made and attempt, but the other one didn't.

 

[Quiddity]

Actually, that makes more sense than just about any other explanation I've heard yet and, with a little stretching, I can almost reconcile it to my own belief. If I had more time, I'd like to see how close it actually is. Unfortunately, this is a super busy week for me. (Unlike everybody else, of course. )[/font]

That's an interesting comment, because the two people on this forum who have told me that it makes perfect sense to them haven't even come close to being able to explain it. One of them at least made and attempt, but the other one didn't.

Hopefully when things settle down, you can come back and post your thoughts. A conversation with you is always worth the wait and patience.... . Unfortunately, I can't say that of others.... .

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

. It is impossible to really grasp the Trinity with our rational mind (hence us calling it a Mystery) so I'd be unsurprised if people don't follow my attempt to explain. You can pretty much guarantee that if someone tells you the Trinity is 'simple' they don't have a clear idea of what it means themselves.

Thanks James!

This is rather interesting that you would say that. Many christians believe that it is essential for salvation to believe in the trinity, yet one is not readily able to grasp it rationaly. This is one of the reasons why I ultimately came to disbelieve in the trinity as a true doctrine. If one cannot rationalize the basic doctrine enough to even explain it to someone else, how can this messege be spread? Full comprehensive knowledge of the essence of Allah I don't think can be had by us. Simply on the basis that Allah is infinite, and we as humans are unable to think in any terms other than finite ones. However, even with that being the case, if it is the intention of God to reveal to humans an all important messege-without which we will be doomed according to some-then it would make sense for God to at least present us with an aspect of His nature that we can handle.

It would be unfair for God to demand we believe wholeheartedly in the basics of a doctrine that cannot be rationally conceived of by us. If you ask a muslim what is the basic teachings of Islam about Allah, we have no problem eloquently expressing it. Also, it is so simple that young children understand it with ease. It is unreasonable to expect people to accept the trinity doctrine of christianity when one cannot explain it simply and easily so that all the people can understand.

It just seems like a truth that God demands people to accept or else, wouldn't be and shouldn't be incomprehensible.

 

[logician]

Let's face it, the idea of the trinity was made up, like everything else in Christianity. Nobody understands it, because it really doesn't make sense, any more than Jesus - who is god made in man's image for man's purposes.

 

[Quiddity]

This is rather interesting that you would say that. Many christians believe that it is essential for salvation to believe in the trinity, yet one is not readily able to grasp it rationaly. This is one of the reasons why I ultimately came to disbelieve in the trinity as a true doctrine. If one cannot rationalize the basic doctrine enough to even explain it to someone else, how can this messege be spread? Full comprehensive knowledge of the essence of Allah I don't think can be had by us. Simply on the basis that Allah is infinite, and we as humans are unable to think in any terms other than finite ones. However, even with that being the case, if it is the intention of God to reveal to humans an all important messege-without which we will be doomed according to some-then it would make sense for God to at least present us with an aspect of His nature that we can handle.

It would be unfair for God to demand we believe wholeheartedly in the basics of a doctrine that cannot be rationally conceived of by us. If you ask a muslim what is the basic teachings of Islam about Allah, we have no problem eloquently expressing it. Also, it is so simple that young children understand it with ease. It is unreasonable to expect people to accept the trinity doctrine of christianity when one cannot explain it simply and easily so that all the people can understand.

It just seems like a truth that God demands people to accept or else, wouldn't be and shouldn't be incomprehensible.

Something mysterious doesn't mean you can't grasp it at all. It just means we can't fully grasp it. I hope you see the difference.

 

[Quiddity]

Let's face it, the idea of the trinity was made up, like everything else in Christianity. Nobody understands it, because it really doesn't make sense, any more than Jesus - who is god made in man's image for man's purposes.

That is an excellent conversation stopper......congratulations! :sarcastic

 

[logician]

You're welcome.

 

[Katzpur]

Let's face it, the idea of the trinity was made up, like everything else in Christianity. Nobody understands it, because it really doesn't make sense, any more than Jesus - who is god made in man's image for man's purposes.

Ah, the ego of an atheist.

I don't happen to believe in the Trinity myself, but every aspect of my own religious beliefs makes absolute sense to me. The fact that you don't personally understand something in no way means that "nobody understands it."