The Trinity

[xkatz]

(I am not trying to offend any christians. I am just challenging their beliefs. If I offend you, I apologize)

The trinity has always bothered me. I have several reasons for this.

1) Who is the "Father"? I have heard some people say it's god himself but isn't the trinity itself god? So doesn't that create a paradox?

2) What is the "Holy Ghost" exactly? Is it the spirituality of the people? If so then why not call it spirit?

3) The New Testament doesn't really talk much about it, except in a few obscure excerpts. It is common knowledge that Jesus himself never really talked about it at all. Then why is it so heavily emphasized on in christianity?

 

[EtuMalku]

One early Trinity of Egyptian origin was comprised Osiris (some books state Serapis), Isis and Horus (Father, Mother, Son)
Another was that of the god Amun. Amun was three gods in one. Re was his face, Ptah his body, and Amun his hidden identity.

An ancient Egyptian hymn to Amun written in the 14th century BC defines this Egyptian trinity: ‘All Gods are three: Amun, Re, Ptah; they have no equal. His name is hidden as Amun, he is Re... before men, and his body is Ptah’

Then there is the ancient Sumerian trinity: Anu the primary god of heaven, the ‘Father’, Enlil, the ‘wind-god’ the god of the earth, and a creator god; and Enki was the god of waters and the ‘lord of wisdom’.

These were not the only trinities. The historical lecturer, Jesse Benedict Carter, writes of the Etruscans as they slowly passed from Babylon through Greece and went on to Rome brought with them their trinity of Tinia, Uni, and Menerva. This trinity became so ‘typical of Rome’ that it quickly spread throughout Italy. Even the names of the Roman trinity: Jupiter, Juno, and Minerva, reflect the ancestry.

Oddly enough Judaism has no trinities. Also, no where in the Christian Bible is the Trinity mentioned. Jesus never spoke of a Trinity either, at least not recorded in any Gospel.

In Plato’s 'Timeus', ‘The Supreme Reality appears in the trinitarian form of the Good, the Intelligence, and the World-Soul’. Neoplatonists were one of the major factors in the development of Christian theology.

EM

 

[zenzero]

Friend xkatz,

Sanatan Dharma too has the holy trinity in the form of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. They represent the Creator, the Preserver and the Destroyer.
What ever is created by existence has to go through creation, preservation and destruction.

Personal understanding about the concepts are that they are for an understanding which has to be realised by meditating on each aspect and not the form.

Love & rgds
Though it happens on its own accord

 

[Breathe]

Ah, the Trinity.

I couldn't get my head around it either. It was one of the things that helped push me out of Christianity.

I've heard some people say that the Father is Jehovah, Yahweh, whatever you would like to call Him. The Holy Spirit is, I dunno. God in another person, which doesn't make much sense.

Trinities are not rare things though, like there's one in Hinduism, Egyptian, Norse (the Norns).

Personally I believe Jesus was echoing the Buddha (Son), Dharma (Father) and Sangha (Spirit), instead of what Christians believe though. But hey, I'm weird.



Welcome to RF by the way

 

[Nothing]

xkats- so far no Christians have responded and well..., I'm not either.
I do love to speculate however so here's my take on the Trinity. The Father of course is God, and like you I believe God is all three and much more. The Son and the Holy Spirit are aspects of God. The Son is the physical manifestation of God (and we are all Sons of God) and the Holy Spirit is God's Messenger who works through each and every one of us personally.

 

[Evee]

Hey,
I'm also not a Christian, but this question puzzled me so much I asked it and this is my understanding so far:

1. There are lots of Hebrew names for G-d, most of which get translated either as Lord, God, King or Father. The Father, sometimes just called God) of the NT is some of those names. It refers to the part of the Whole G-d (confusinly also called God) that is always in Heaven, transcendant. It's the part that Christians believe can't stand us in our state of sin. Despite all of our best efforts, we can never get close to Him, except through Jesus.

2. The Holy Ghost is the consolation prize that Jesus's followers got when he was crucified. It's a spirit that speaks to people who blieve in Jesus. You can only hear it (according to most of the opinions I've heard) if you've dedicated yourself to living "yoked to Christ" and if you've been baptized. Some churches do indeed call it the Holy Spirit.

3. I'm assuming that by "it" you mean the trinity, not the Holy Ghost. Jesus does mention the Holy Ghost a couple of times. (I can look it up if you like, or you can search biblegateway yourself. Up to you. ) The necessity of the Holy Trinity came up when people were trying to come to terms with belief in one god, as dictated in the 10 commandments, and belief that Jesus was his son, as stated at Jesus's baptism, and also this strange comforter that Jesus speaks of, his own spirit. If you believe all of these things are true, you end up having to believe that G-d is a three-in-one, one-in-three package deal. Some Churches deal with this by having a mystical Trinity. But at least a few de-emphasize the Trinity doctrince and view the three as aspects of the same thing, or rowers in the same boat.

Hope that helped and good luck wrapping your mind around it. I haven't been able to, not entirely...

 

[God4me]

(I am not trying to offend any christians. I am just challenging their beliefs. If I offend you, I apologize)

The trinity has always bothered me. I have several reasons for this.

1) Who is the "Father"? I have heard some people say it's god himself but isn't the trinity itself god? So doesn't that create a paradox?

2) What is the "Holy Ghost" exactly? Is it the spirituality of the people? If so then why not call it spirit?

3) The New Testament doesn't really talk much about it, except in a few obscure excerpts. It is common knowledge that Jesus himself never really talked about it at all. Then why is it so heavily emphasized on in christianity?

[1]It is so heavily emhasized because the Bible teaches it.

[2] God manifests Himself as, The Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost, They all have different operations.

 

[Gharib]

is that 3 gods at one time or is that one god at 3 times?

 

[Breathe]

is that 3 gods at one time or is that one god at 3 times?

One God in all times at the same eternally time in three persons (or, better translated, "personas").

Strange, I know. I prefer the personas one, but that sounds strange. Makes God sound schizophrenic to me..!

 

[Gharib]

One God in all times at the same eternally time in three persons (or, better translated, "personas").

Strange, I know. I prefer the personas one, but that sounds strange. Makes God sound schizophrenic to me..!

i can't seem to recall christians to have ever fully explained the trinity here on RF. i too asked the same question some time ago and the thread just died out.

there is also another question that i have for those who believe the jesus is god. did he have sex with mary so he could be born or is there a bigger picture to it?

 

[Breathe]

i can't seem to recall christians to have ever fully explained the trinity here on RF. i too asked the same question some time ago and the thread just died out.

It's a difficult thing to explain (as you can imagine), and full of "But!" moments.

there is also another question that i have for those who believe the jesus is god. did he have sex with mary so he could be born or is there a bigger picture to it?

Bigger picture. It's more or less the same way Allah did it in the Qur'an, I think. In effect. I guess. Um.

I'll leave it to Christians to explain it better.

 

[Gharib]

It's a difficult thing to explain (as you can imagine), and full of "But!" moments.

but it shouldn't be that way.

Bigger picture. It's more or less the same way Allah did it in the Qur'an, I think. In effect. I guess. Um.

I'll leave it to Christians to explain it better.

the quran just states that Allah created him without a father, Allah say 'be' and it becomes. the one thing i have a problem with this is that while christians accept Eve to have been created from Adams rib (i think christians believe that) they say god could not have created Jesus without a father. as far as i'm aware being created without a mother is much more dificult than being created without a father, although to a limitless powerfull god that doesn't seem like such a big deal. i think i should open a new thread and ask them, it seems no one has answered the questons in this thread.

 

[te_lanus]

(I am not trying to offend any christians. I am just challenging their beliefs. If I offend you, I apologize)

I'm not offended. But then I'm a Christian-Wiccan

The trinity has always bothered me. I have several reasons for this.

1) Who is the "Father"? I have heard some people say it's god himself but isn't the trinity itself god? So doesn't that create a paradox?

3) The New Testament doesn't really talk much about it, except in a few obscure excerpts. It is common knowledge that Jesus himself never really talked about it at all. Then why is it so heavily emphasized on in christianity?

There is no such thing as the trinity. It was an idea created by the Catholics to make Christianity not conform to Paganistic ideas. Nowhere in the Bible do one read that God the Father is Jesus

"I bid you also observe, that on my side I advance the passage where the Father said to the Son,
'Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten Thee.'

If you want me to believe Him to be both the Father and the Son, show me some other passage where it is declared,
'The Lord said unto Himself, I am my own Son, to-day have I begotten myself;'
- Tertulian

The doctrine of the Trinity did not form part of the apostles' preaching, as this is reported in the New Testament[FONT=CG Times (W1),Times New Roman]."[/FONT][FONT=CG Times (W1),Times New Roman] (Encyclopedia International, Ian Henderson, University of Glasgow, 1969, page 226)[/FONT]

2) What is the "Holy Ghost" exactly? Is it the spirituality of the people? If so then why not call it spirit?

Me don't know.

there is also another question that i have for those who believe the jesus is god. did he have sex with mary so he could be born or is there a bigger picture to it?

No, According to certain early Christian Fathers, Jesus only became God's Son after His Baptism.

 

[Breathe]

but it shouldn't be that way.

Shhh

the quran just states that Allah created him without a father, Allah say 'be' and it becomes. the one thing i have a problem with this is that while christians accept Eve to have been created from Adams rib (i think christians believe that) they say god could not have created Jesus without a father. as far as i'm aware being created without a mother is much more dificult than being created without a father, although to a limitless powerfull god that doesn't seem like such a big deal.

I agree.

I think for some Christians, the use of the term 'son of God', is because Jesus didn't have a biological father and it was God's Will that created him, so it falls to God to be his father.

I understand the term son of God to be (basically) like "abdullah" though, a pious man, a servant of God, a priest, etc etc. But hey, I'm not Christian.

Where are all the Christians at anyway?!

 

[te_lanus]

Shhh
Where are all the Christians at anyway?!

I've come to know that a lot of Christians is afraid to explain the trinity, I've got an earfull, "Your not a christian, as you don't worship the Trinity, but Asherah". When I ask them to explain the trinity, they go "uhm......." and walks away

 

[Breathe]

<<snip>>

LOL! That's awesome. I've had similar difficulties trying to discuss the Trinity myself.

When I was Christian-Wiccan I saw Asherah as the Holy Spirit (who I saw in addition, as Shekhinah. Many names for the Feminine aspect of Yahweh), yet I didn't see Jesus as divine.

Going off-topic a bit though.

 

[roddio]

(I am not trying to offend any christians. I am just challenging their beliefs. If I offend you, I apologize)

The trinity has always bothered me. I have several reasons for this.

1) Who is the "Father"? I have heard some people say it's god himself but isn't the trinity itself god? So doesn't that create a paradox?

2) What is the "Holy Ghost" exactly? Is it the spirituality of the people? If so then why not call it spirit?

3) The New Testament doesn't really talk much about it, except in a few obscure excerpts. It is common knowledge that Jesus himself never really talked about it at all. Then why is it so heavily emphasized on in christianity?

God revealed Himself to us in different ways. He is the Father of all creations, He became the Son to show us that even though we live in a human body we can still please Him without excuses, He has always been the Holy Spirit. All three working for the same goal. God bless

 

[roddio]

I'm not offended. But then I'm a Christian-Wiccan


There is no such thing as the trinity. It was an idea created by the Catholics to make Christianity not conform to Paganistic ideas. Nowhere in the Bible do one read that God the Father is Jesus






Me don't know.


No, According to certain early Christian Fathers, Jesus only became God's Son after His Baptism.

Read 1timothy 3:16 God bless

 

[Breathe]

Read 1timothy 3:16 God bless

Paul's theology (or one of his disciples), not the teaching of Jesus.

 

[te_lanus]

Read 1timothy 3:16 God bless

Doesn't prove the trinity, only proves that Jesus Died and was raised again

God was manifest in the flesh. Was manifested in Jesus Christ. (see below)

Justified in the Spirit. When, after his condemnation to death, the power of God raised him from the dead.

Seen of angels. The angels were at the open tomb and told the women of his resurrection.

The most reliable manuscripts of 1 Timothy 3:16 do not say "God was manifested in the flesh." Rather our most reliable manuscripts say "who" or which" was manifested in flesh." When the Christological controversies were occurring in the fourth and early fifth centuries, we do not see even one solitary person making a reference to this passage as evidence for the deity of Christ. This undeniably proves it was unknown to them. If indeed 1 Timothy 3:16 really said "God was manifest in the flesh," we can most definitely be sure this passage would have most been brought forward as "Exhibit A." Yet, not one soul mentions it even though this passage more than any other would have supported the teaching that the incarnate Christ was "God." But the facts remain as they are and it was never mentioned once in the myriads of documentation that exist illustrating what was argued in these debates. There is a good reason that no one in the fourth century church ever mentioned the passage. The word "God" did not appear in 1 Timothy 3:16 until much later. It first appeared in manuscripts after Trinitarian dogma was fully developed and canonized and is an obvious later alteration. The oldest and best manuscripts do not have the word "God" (theos) in 1 Timothy 3:16 which is why modern Bible translations do not have the word "God" at 1 Timothy 3:16 either.

• Manuscript, Common Name, Date, Text, Comments,
• B, Codex Vaticanusca., 300,Does not contain 1 Timothy,Alexandrian.
• Aleph, Codex Sinaiticusca., 350, who was manifest in flesh, Alexandrian.
• Al, Codex Alexandrinusca., 450, who was manifest in flesh,Scrivener attests to theos.
• C, Codex Ephraemi Rescriptusca., 450, who was manifest in flesh
• D, Codex Claromontanusca,. 550, which was manifest in flesh
• Pe****ta & Coptic & Ethiopic & Sahidic, which was manifest in flesh
• Gothic, which was manifest in flesh