The Trinity

[Shiranui117]

It seems you limit God. God could have anyone reflect him perfectly if he desired to as he is able to do all things except die and lie. So if he wished a man to reflect him, as he did with Jesus, then he could do so, and he did so.

The limited can never fully reflect the Limitless. It's no limit on God--it's a limit on us. Even if we were perfect (and God willing, we will be made perfect when we enter the Kingdom of Heaven), we would not be as perfect as God is. God's perfection is limitless. We are finite creatures, and therefore even if we keep becoming more perfect forever, we would still never reach God's level of perfection or be able to reflect the true fullness of His perfection. It is our nature as created beings. Only by God becoming man could we possibly have an absolutely perfect reflection of Who He is. To assert otherwise would be to place created beings on God's level, and we know that such is impossible.

 

[CG Didymus]

Muhammad did not unseal the Mysteries of Bible. That was left for Baha'u'llah to do.

But what does Islam say about who Jesus is and whether or not he rose from the dead? The Christians are claiming he died, appeared to them after, Thomas touched him to see if he was real, and he ate with them. Doesn't Islam say that it wasn't him, but a look-a-like that died on the cross?

But let's look at how the other religions see Jesus:
Hindu--no problem because he is just another incarnation of Lord Vishnu or something.
Buddhist--I don't know? Maybe an enlightened one?
Zoroastrian--I don't know?
Judaiam--He's nothing. The Messiah is to usher in a era of peace. So, not only is he not God, he not even the Messiah.
Christian--mainstream says that he is Lord and God and died on the cross and rose bodily from the grave to conquer Satan and death. He will return to cast devil into hell with all those that aren't written in the Book of Life. At that time, he will bring everlasting peace. None of which Baha'is believe, correct?
Christian--JW, Unitarian, Mormon etc? Hopefully, they'll answer this for us.
Islam--Not God? but Messiah, but didn't die on the cross? something like that?
Baha'i--Not God, but a mirror perfectly reflecting God. A "spiritual" resurrection, not a physical one. There's no real being known as Satan, evil is the absence of light. Humans born "noble" not with a sin nature or "original" sin.

You my be right, somehow, but how is this the same progression? And, still there is no peace in the world. So even Baha'u'llah doesn't fulfill the prophecies for the Jewish Messiah. He doesn't establish the Law of Moses, he brings yet another set of laws that more resembles the laws of Islam.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It is possible if we look at the writings of the early Church--the earliest extra-Biblical writing we have is the Didache, which was written around 50 AD--this is before most of the New Testament was even written. This is mostly a manual for Christian practice, excluding the last chapter, but it does show us how the early Church lived.

Is this document more important or the Gospels? Is Gospel inspire by God, or this document that you are saying was written 50AD? Does this document explains and interprets all verses of Bible one by one?

Whatever denominations don't have consonant teachings and practices are deviants of the Church founded by Christ,and therefore not the Church founded by Christ. We know that the Apostolic Tradition has continued unchanged and unaltered because of Christ's promises and because of what we know about the nature of the Church, so it is possible to look at early Christian history and subsequent history and find what Church hasn't changed its teachings and has kept to the Tradition of the Apostles.

And this is possible if one realizes that we have the writings of those who were personally taught by the Apostles; we can see what they were taught, and use the oral teachings of the Apostles to their students as a tool to interpret the teachings of the Apostles as contained in the Bible.

And even in Orthodoxy, there are very few official interpretations--what I mean is, the meaning of the Bible is manifold, and it is possible to have multiple, complimentary and correct interpretations of a single verse or passage, and we do see this. There are very few places where the Church has said "This is the meaning of this verse, and this is the only meaning that it can possibly have." I might think of an interpretation not found in the Fathers, but it can still be correct if it is in line with the Apostolic Tradition and does not contradict the teaching of the Church. Over the centuries as people have thought up more interpretations, the Church has drawn a line in the sand against certain interpretations not in line with the Tradition and said, "These interpretations are incorrect; the passages don't mean that, and we know this based on what the Apostles taught and what their students taught and what their students taught--in other words, based on what is contained in the Tradition."

There definitely is an official measuring stick--that measuring stick is the Apostolic Tradition. If one's interpretation contradicts that Teaching of the Apostles, then it is a false interpretation.

We know there have been false teachers. We can tell who is right and who isn't by looking at the consensus of the Fathers in centuries past, and seeing whether what a teacher says lines up with the Tradition of the Apostles.

The problem with this reasoning I see is, it has a lot of assumption in it. It is basically based on the belief that "Tradition of the Apostles" are truly the teachings of Apostles. You have not established this as a fact. That is dependent on if the teachings of Apostles were understood properly and transmitted properly through generations. I am not going to repeat this again and again my friend.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

But what does Islam say about who Jesus is and whether or not he rose from the dead? The Christians are claiming he died, appeared to them after, Thomas touched him to see if he was real, and he ate with them. Doesn't Islam say that it wasn't him, but a look-a-like that died on the cross?

But let's look at how the other religions see Jesus:
Hindu--no problem because he is just another incarnation of Lord Vishnu or something.
Buddhist--I don't know? Maybe an enlightened one?
Zoroastrian--I don't know?
Judaiam--He's nothing. The Messiah is to usher in a era of peace. So, not only is he not God, he not even the Messiah.
Christian--mainstream says that he is Lord and God and died on the cross and rose bodily from the grave to conquer Satan and death. He will return to cast devil into hell with all those that aren't written in the Book of Life. At that time, he will bring everlasting peace. None of which Baha'is believe, correct?
Christian--JW, Unitarian, Mormon etc? Hopefully, they'll answer this for us.
Islam--Not God? but Messiah, but didn't die on the cross? something like that?
Baha'i--Not God, but a mirror perfectly reflecting God. A "spiritual" resurrection, not a physical one. There's no real being known as Satan, evil is the absence of light. Humans born "noble" not with a sin nature or "original" sin.

You my be right, somehow, but how is this the same progression? And, still there is no peace in the world. So even Baha'u'llah doesn't fulfill the prophecies for the Jewish Messiah. He doesn't establish the Law of Moses, he brings yet another set of laws that more resembles the laws of Islam.

All the Prophecies are fulfilled by Baha'u'llah. You don't expect me to go through every single one of them in this thread, do you? But this Baha'i: Prophecy Fulfilled Homepage is a good list of them.

 

[Shiranui117]

All the Prophecies are fulfilled by Baha'u'llah. You don't expect me to go through every single one of them in this thread, do you? But this Baha'i: Prophecy Fulfilled Homepage is a good list of them.

I'd like to see you answer his excellent points about the fact that each of the religions that the Baha'i claim to be one and the same, all contradict each other at a fundamental, foundational level simply on the topic of Who Jesus is--let alone Who they all think God is.

The only coherent and consistent position the Baha'i can ultimately take is to say that each of the religions prior to the Baha'i Faith were all corrupted--Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Islam, etc. all must have been corrupted by their followers, and thus their Scriptures are no longer reliable, the teachings found therein having been changed and corrupted. You would have to take the view of the Muslims who say that the Scriptures prior to your religion's Scriptures were all corrupted; otherwise you will endlessly contradict yourself at best, or completely mangle the meaning of the Scriptures you claim to be able to interpret and make your position seem completely baseless at worst.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I'd like to see you answer his excellent points about the fact that each of the religions that the Baha'i claim to be one and the same, all contradict each other at a fundamental, foundational level simply on the topic of Who Jesus is--let alone Who they all think God is.

The only coherent and consistent position the Baha'i can ultimately take is to say that each of the religions prior to the Baha'i Faith were all corrupted--Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Islam, etc. all must have been corrupted by their followers, and thus their Scriptures are no longer reliable, the teachings found therein having been changed and corrupted. You would have to take the view of the Muslims who say that the Scriptures prior to your religion's Scriptures were all corrupted; otherwise you will endlessly contradict yourself at best, or completely mangle the meaning of the Scriptures you claim to be able to interpret and make your position seem completely baseless at worst.

Even within Christianity there are many differences with regards to who Jesus was, let alone followers of different religions. These differences are due to different understandings and interpretations, and not that which the Scriptures teach. Jesus is mentioned only in Three Religion's Scriptures: Christian Bible, Quran and Baha'i Scriptures. All scriptures agree with each other if they are interpreted correctly.

 

[Jensen]

Who is Lord and Who is God? Dot forget that you and many with the same belief keep posting 1 Cor 8:6 that there is only One Lord... (It says One God the Father and One Lord Jesus)

That verse actually says the one God is the Father. Couldn't be plainer to me.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I actually like theology of Michael Servetus . He was quite bright, but they burned him.

 

[icebuddy]

Originally Posted by kjw47
And as well--the greek word stauros-( stake or pole) was used in error as cross in trinity translations--along with many other misleading errors.

Cross - The Method in which Jesus died for our sins and used by the Romans in that day. Even tombs being found today have the sign of the cross on them... (Never do we see the sign of the Stake or pole on tombs) It was Roman practice to make the Victim carry the cross beam or patibulum to the site of execution. The cross beam was then affixed to the upright stake to make a cross. So Jesus carried the stauros(Greek) to where the upright stake awaited him. Then the 2 affixed together make what we know today as the cross. (Finished Execution)

Even magazines of the awake have crosses in them showing Roman executions... Im not sure why, but i can find copies if needed...

In Love

 

[icebuddy]

Jesus had empty Himself of what?

The Eternal word (Jesus) stripped Himself of all privileges and rightful dignity as God and Put on a Human nature. How do you think Phil 2:5-6 be understood?

But I also quote from Baha'i Scriptures for you:

i dont see the Baha'i scriptures as Gods Word to us. I do not read them and at the moment, see it as i see the book of Morman...

in Love

 

[icebuddy]

Jesus was the Manifestation of Jehovah, but not the incarnation of Jehovah. Please note the difference!

Who do you believe Jesus to be the incarnation of? (Since we all believe he existed before born to Mary) What Im saying is this: Do you consider the Eternal Word of life(JESUS) to be God or and Angel or created or what, before leaving heaven...? Where do you place Jesus before his earthly birth? As the Bible passage I posted, I do not know exactly 100% and neither did Paul. I claim as Paul in 1 Cor 13:12. If Jesus appeared to me I would bow in worship and say to him, "My Lord and My God", without hesitation. (If I could)

I also see the Father taking passages of Jehovah in the OT and applying them directly to Jesus. Why do you think this is...?

In Love

 

[icebuddy]

Jesus is called 'image of God' according to Scriptures. But the Scriptures never call the Father, the 'image of God'.

It is my belief that Jesus is the "ONLY" true Image of God. That on Earth, the only Image God has is Jesus. So if God where to visit you in person, you would see Jesus.
Do you think of Jesus as one of many Images of God or how do you see this exactly? I get the feeling that you see Jesus as a cardboard cut out of God....

Also please note that if You say Jesus was fully God incarnation, then you end up having Two Gods.

Its all in how one defines the word "GOD". For example: If I said that our ONE GOD was 7 spirits, then if each of those spirits incarnated themselves, does that make 7 Gods? Its all in the eye of the beholder. So it wouldnt be 2 Gods as you think, it would be 2 persons that can be called God, because they are what make complete and unified our One God. For example: God is our Father, Our Savior, and our Friend. Our brains are fine with that being 1 God, but as soon as that becomes Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit some freak out and say 3 Gods. Why? Why cant God be 3 or 2?

One is the Father in Heaven and another on earth Jesus. And if you add Holy Spirit you get Three Gods, and this is contrary to the Scriptures which says 'our Lord, God is One'.

Explain why God cant be 3? You have defined God in your mind before you even got to the finish... Ask yourself a question: Can your God be your savior without Jesus? Can your God be your helper without the Holy Spirit? Can God be complete without the Father or the Son or the Holy Spirit?

In Love

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Eternal word (Jesus) stripped Himself of all privileges and rightful dignity as God and Put on a Human nature. How do you think Phil 2:5-6 be understood?

I have already explained these concepts with the analogy of the Sun and Mirror. Please refer to them.

i dont see the Baha'i scriptures as Gods Word to us. I do not read them and at the moment, see it as i see the book of Morman...

in Love

No problem. But I think you should really investigate it then decide.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Who do you believe Jesus to be the incarnation of? (Since we all believe he existed before born to Mary) What Im saying is this: Do you consider the Eternal Word of life(JESUS) to be God or and Angel or created or what, before leaving heaven...? Where do you place Jesus before his earthly birth? As the Bible passage I posted, I do not know exactly 100% and neither did Paul. I claim as Paul in 1 Cor 13:12. If Jesus appeared to me I would bow in worship and say to him, "My Lord and My God", without hesitation. (If I could)

I also see the Father taking passages of Jehovah in the OT and applying them directly to Jesus. Why do you think this is...?

In Love

Just some facts about 'incarnation':

1. The word incarnation is not found in the entire Bible.
2. If we look at the writing of saints in early Christianity, many of them did not use this term. They never called Jesus the incarnation of God.
3. The concept of incarnation existed in Greek Philosophy that predates Christianity.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It is my belief that Jesus is the "ONLY" true Image of God. That on Earth, the only Image God has is Jesus. So if God where to visit you in person, you would see Jesus.
Do you think of Jesus as one of many Images of God or how do you see this exactly? I get the feeling that you see Jesus as a cardboard cut out of God....

I see the creation of God generally in 5 Category:

1. minerals
2. plants
3. animals
4. human
5. Manifestations of God, such as Jesus, Buddha, Moses, Baha'u'llah, Krishna...

So, no matter how perfect a plant is, it cannot be an animal. No matter how perfect an animal is, it can never become human. No matter how perfect a human is, he can never become equal with a Manifestation of God.

Its all in how one defines the word "GOD". For example: If I said that our ONE GOD was 7 spirits, then if each of those spirits incarnated themselves, does that make 7 Gods? Its all in the eye of the beholder. So it wouldnt be 2 Gods as you think, it would be 2 persons that can be called God, because they are what make complete and unified our One God. For example: God is our Father, Our Savior, and our Friend. Our brains are fine with that being 1 God, but as soon as that becomes Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit some freak out and say 3 Gods. Why? Why cant God be 3 or 2?

I believe how Holy Books describes God. We cannot define god for ourselves.

Explain why God cant be 3? You have defined God in your mind before you even got to the finish... Ask yourself a question: Can your God be your savior without Jesus? Can your God be your helper without the Holy Spirit? Can God be complete without the Father or the Son or the Holy Spirit?

In Love

We are discussing based on Bible. According to Bible, God is One. Simple as that...

 

[icebuddy]

I believe Bible as Bible says it is inspired by God. But Baha'I Faith has its own Scriptures and Laws, which is about 200 volumes. A small portion of it explains Bible and other previous Scriptures. For a Baha'I Christian Bible is like Old old testament, that was revealed for previous Ages.

Sound allot like the Book of Mormon or the JW Study Scriptures... I believe the bible has been translated accurate and God told Peter that the Devil would not overpower the Churches Gates. It seems to me that Baha'I is also like LDS claiming Christianity was Lost and needed restored back to Order. I dont believe Mizra Ali Muhammad is a prophet from God or is mentioned in any scriptures.

We are warned of many false prophets that will be coming. never do we read that a true prophet will be coming until the day Jesus Returns.

In Love

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Sound allot like the Book of Mormon or the JW Study Scriptures... I believe the bible has been translated accurate and God told Peter that the Devil would not overpower the Churches Gates. It seems to me that Baha'I is also like LDS claiming Christianity was Lost and needed restored back to Order. I dont believe Mizra Ali Muhammad is a prophet from God or is mentioned in any scriptures.

We are warned of many false prophets that will be coming. never do we read that a true prophet will be coming until the day Jesus Returns.

In Love

Most Jews did not see Jesus as the true Messiah, and so far most Christians did not see Baha'u'llah as the Return of Christ. I see a pattern here....

 

[icebuddy]

Isaiah 9-- teaches Jesus' name will be called mighty God--it did not say Jesus was mighty God.

Why did the Father quote Psalms 102:25-27 and say this was Jesus?

Jesus was first and last in many things--1) f-l being directly created by God-2) F-l being sent from heaven to live as mortal and die a sinless life--3) First and last to be given control of Gods kingdom for 1000 years.

The Eternal Word of God is not Created. According to you, anyone can be called First and Last. I was the 1st of my kind and the last. For no one is exactly like me. When I hear these examples i see that someone has watered down the meaning of words in order for you to even think this way. That is why when Jesus is called God or even Mighty God one like yourself can just ignore it as no big deal. Many here will say I have 2 or 3 Gods, but a belief like that is more like the Pagans that have demi-gods.

Jesus was given all and taught all things--he couldn't do a thing of his own inititive
acts 2:22 Gods power goes through Jesus---this is why Jesus gives all credit and honor to his God and Father--the Father is actually doing it all--through Jesus.

Jesus had all authority, gave it up, and the Father then gives it back to him. You keep seeing Jesus though his humbled state of existence...

Knowing the only true God( Father) and knowing Jesus is a requirement to get eternal life-John 17:1-6--verse 6 = YHWH(Jehovah)

Could you talk to someone at your church and call Jesus, "Jehovah our Righteousness"? Or would that be looked upon as negative?

What name are you going to call upon at death? Lets say you can only say one name before you get your head chopped off. What will it be? Jesus or Jehovah?

Romans 10:13 applies an OT passage directly to Jesus and equates the name Jesus with that of Jehovah.

in Love

 

[icebuddy]

If I remember correctly it was the Jews that claimed that Jesus was claiming to be equal to God, and Jesus that denied it.

Jesus never denied being Called God or Worship. Thomas calls Jesus both Lord and God directly and Jesus praised him. As for John 5:18 is want the Jew that said Jesus claimed equality with God, it was John inspired by the Holy Spirit. Read it and see that John is narrating it for us under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. John explains to us why the Jews wanted to stone Jesus.

As for John 10:33, the Jews said Jesus was Claiming to be God because he said he was Gods Son. For in that Day, you where what your Father is. Son of man is a Man and Son of God is a God. Gods birth Gods and Men birth Men kind of mentality. The Jews even teased Jesus because they thought his Father was an unknown man that knocked up Mary. Yet Jesus claimed to be the True Son of God.

in Love

 

[kjw47]

Why did the Father quote Psalms 102:25-27 and say this was Jesus?



The Eternal Word of God is not Created. According to you, anyone can be called First and Last. I was the 1st of my kind and the last. For no one is exactly like me. When I hear these examples i see that someone has watered down the meaning of words in order for you to even think this way. That is why when Jesus is called God or even Mighty God one like yourself can just ignore it as no big deal. Many here will say I have 2 or 3 Gods, but a belief like that is more like the Pagans that have demi-gods.



Jesus had all authority, gave it up, and the Father then gives it back to him. You keep seeing Jesus though his humbled state of existence...



Could you talk to someone at your church and call Jesus, "Jehovah our Righteousness"? Or would that be looked upon as negative?

What name are you going to call upon at death? Lets say you can only say one name before you get your head chopped off. What will it be? Jesus or Jehovah?

Romans 10:13 applies an OT passage directly to Jesus and equates the name Jesus with that of Jehovah.

in Love

The name Jehovah belongs at Romans 10:13--that is the name to call on.

Jesus speaking--proverbs-8 Also rev 3:14--cOLLOSIANS 1:15--THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL creation.