The Trinity

[kjw47]

Cross - The Method in which Jesus died for our sins and used by the Romans in that day. Even tombs being found today have the sign of the cross on them... (Never do we see the sign of the Stake or pole on tombs) It was Roman practice to make the Victim carry the cross beam or patibulum to the site of execution. The cross beam was then affixed to the upright stake to make a cross. So Jesus carried the stauros(Greek) to where the upright stake awaited him. Then the 2 affixed together make what we know today as the cross. (Finished Execution)

Even magazines of the awake have crosses in them showing Roman executions... Im not sure why, but i can find copies if needed...

In Love

tHE CROSS = a pagan symbol from babylonish religions of the ot = the table of demons--Jesus has 0 to do with the table of demons and their pagan symbols.

 

[CG Didymus]

All the Prophecies are fulfilled by Baha'u'llah. You don't expect me to go through every single one of them in this thread, do you? But this Baha'i: Prophecy Fulfilled Homepage is a good list of them.

No. What I really want to know is to the Baha'is, who is Jesus really? On an Islamic site it said this:

Muslims believe that Jesus was not crucified. It was the plan of Jesus’ enemies to crucify him, but God saved him and raised him up to Him. And the likeness of Jesus was put over another man. Jesus’ enemies took this man and crucified him, thinking that he was Jesus. God has said:

...They said, “We killed the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of God.” They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but the likeness of him was put on another man (and they killed that man)...

(Quran, 4:157)

Do Baha'is agree with that? Or is Abdu'l Baha's answer about how the followers were feeling down about Jesus being killed. Then, they perked up and started teaching the things he taught them, and that is the true resurrection, a "spiritual" one, not a physical one? If it is, then what you're saying is that both the Christian and Islamic interpretation is wrong?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

No. What I really want to know is to the Baha'is, who is Jesus really? On an Islamic site it said this: Do Baha'is agree with that? Or is Abdu'l Baha's answer about how the followers were feeling down about Jesus being killed. Then, they perked up and started teaching the things he taught them, and that is the true resurrection, a "spiritual" one, not a physical one? If it is, then what you're saying is that both the Christian and Islamic interpretation is wrong?

Baha'is do not believe the cause of God is easy. Baha'u'llah says, cause of God is extremely difficult. There are traditions in Bible, and in Islam too, that the cause of God, and understanding of it is extremely difficult. Even in Islam there are traditions that Quran has 7 layers of Hidden meanings......the point I am getting at is, it should not be surprising if people of the past ages misunderstood and misinterpreted the Holy Books and continued to our time, specially considering the fact that their capacity to understand was less than our Age......and Baha'i writings says, Quran is talking about Spirit and Reality of Christ who they neither crucified nor killed, but God raised His Spirit to Himself, thus no contradictions between Quran and Bible. Baha'u'llah very often criticised literal reading of Holy Books.

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'is do not believe the cause of God is easy.

So if the Christians that believe Jesus is part of a triune Godhead are wrong, and that he didn't rise physically from the grave, what was the "cause" of God that Jesus brought?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So if the Christians that believe Jesus is part of a triune Godhead are wrong, and that he didn't rise physically from the grave, what was the "cause" of God that Jesus brought?

Actually I wouldn't say, Jesus did not represent Godhead, but that would mean image of God, or a Mirror who God is manifested in, rather than incarnation of God which is a pagan or Greek philosophy......and the fact is many saints did understand these correctly. But the original teachings of religions eventually get distorted, and that is what we see today.

 

[Katzpur]

...God told Peter that the Devil would not overpower the Churches Gates.

FYI, "the gates of hell" does not refer to "the Devil." And the "Churches Gates" is not even mentioned in the scriptures. You can make the scriptures say what you want them to say, but your interpretation of Christ's words to Peter isn't even close to what Peter would have understood them to be. Paul very specifically predicted as apostasy that would take place in the Church Christ established, and his prediction did come to pass.

 

[Shiranui117]

Paul did say many would apostasize, but he never said that the Church would apostasize, be taken over by apostates or that the Truth would disappear. The Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth (1 Timothy 3:15)

 

[CG Didymus]

Actually I wouldn't say, Jesus did not represent Godhead, but that would mean image of God, or a Mirror who God is manifested in, rather than incarnation of God which is a pagan or Greek philosophy......and the fact is many saints did understand these correctly. But the original teachings of religions eventually get distorted, and that is what we see today.

A couple of problems, who was the manifestation or prophet that brought "religion" to the Greeks? Or, was Greek religion all man-made superstition and mythology? And, about incarnations, Hinduism, a true religion according to Baha'i teachings does have Krishna as an "incarnation" of God. And last, I still want to know if Jesus isn't God in the flesh, that all references that implied that are only meant to be figurative, and if he didn't rise from the dead physically, what did he really do and accomplish? Since Paul did say in the NT that if he hasn't risen from the dead that Christians are still in their sins.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

Paul did say many would apostasize, but he never said that the Church would apostasize, be taken over by apostates or that the Truth would disappear. The Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth (1 Timothy 3:15)

But, you see, the thing is, Christians adapt the word "Church" to mean their own personal denomination. Roman Catholics say that their Church is the "un-apostate" Church, as do the Eastern Orthodox, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Latter-Day Saints, etc.
So, just because a Church claims to be "un-apostate," doesn't make it so. If anything, I think the original form of Christianity dissappeared after dogmatism and organizational religion was introduced.

 

[Shiranui117]

But, you see, the thing is, Christians adapt the word "Church" to mean their own personal denomination. Roman Catholics say that their Church is the "un-apostate" Church, as do the Eastern Orthodox, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Latter-Day Saints, etc.
So, just because a Church claims to be "un-apostate," doesn't make it so. If anything, I think the original form of Christianity dissappeared after dogmatism and organizational religion was introduced.

Regardless of which denomination is the true continuation, it is clear that the Church would not apostasize. Based on the Scripture I mentioned and John 14, it's impossible for the Church to fall away. Anyone who claims to be the Church must be able to trace their history and hierarchy visibly and concretely back to the Apostles. They must also do the same with their teaching. The mark of the Church is found in Apostolic Succession and Holy Tradition (which includes the Bible and the whole teaching and experience of the Faith.

 

[icebuddy]

FYI, "the gates of hell" does not refer to "the Devil." And the "Churches Gates" is not even mentioned in the scriptures. You can make the scriptures say what you want them to say, but your interpretation of Christ's words to Peter isn't even close to what Peter would have understood them to be. Paul very specifically predicted as apostasy that would take place in the Church Christ established, and his prediction did come to pass.

Well lets look at it... i posted out of what i remembered in my head, but i was thinking of Matt 16:18 where Jesus tells Peter(Petros - Large Rock) and upon this Rock I will build My Church, and the Gates of Hades (The powers of the infernal region) shall not overpower it. So it was the Gate of Hell, but i get the same thoughts from the passage. Are you saying that the Church was overpowered and became lost at some point?

What Religion are you or do you fellowship with? Your tag looks like Jensen, but has different name...

In Love

 

[InvestigateTruth]

A couple of problems, who was the manifestation or prophet that brought "religion" to the Greeks? Or, was Greek religion all man-made superstition and mythology?

I don't know any Manifestations appearing among Greeks, but Baha'i Scriptures states that the Greek Philosophers were inspired by Jewish saints.

And, about incarnations, Hinduism, a true religion according to Baha'i teachings does have Krishna as an "incarnation" of God.

They also call Him "manifestation of God", but they probably have a different understanding that what a Manifestation means.

And last, I still want to know if Jesus isn't God in the flesh, that all references that implied that are only meant to be figurative, and if he didn't rise from the dead physically, what did he really do and accomplish?

I quote from Baha'u'llah:

"Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.
Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 85-86

Since Paul did say in the NT that if he hasn't risen from the dead that Christians are still in their sins.

The disciples of Jesus became like the Body of Christ, meaning that they were in Christ and Christ in them, just as the Father was in Jesus, and Jesus in the Father, meaning that the attributes of God was in Christ and also in His disciples. After Jesus was Crucified, the disciples were troubled, and for three days they who were the Body of Christ, were not teaching the cause of God. But after three days they, who were the Body of Christ rose to teach, hence the Body of Christ is said to be raised after three days.

 

[icebuddy]

tHE CROSS = a pagan symbol from babylonish religions of the ot = the table of demons--Jesus has 0 to do with the table of demons and their pagan symbols.

The difference between my belief and yours is that nothing is pagan to me. Jesus made everything and didnt make one thing Pagan. I am free from all that craziness!!! Only in the minds of people do pagan things really exist for nothing is pagan. Give it enough time and all things everywhere will have some kind of Pagan attachment if you really pay attention, but thats if you look. The Months and days we use today are pagan, do you have a calendar? Im not trying to scare you, but free you in Christ. For i assure you, Jesus didnt make 1 thing pagan and things you see as pagan are either pagan in your mind or in the minds of others. Do not give them any power or truth...

Even the WTBS symbols look like Canaanite Altars and Artemis of Ephesus' hat... But that doesnt mean anything unless you give it power yourself. For over 50 years the WTBS thought Jesus died on a cross and Jesus supposedly was running things in some fashion from 1914 on, so how did that happen? Just trying to show you something...

In Love

 

[icebuddy]

The name Jehovah belongs at Romans 10:13--that is the name to call on.

The name we are to call upon in Romans 10:13 is Jesus, and it happens to be the only name we are to call upon today. (Acts 4:10-12 and Acts 16:30-31) if you continue to read Romans 10 you will see at verse 14-15 saying how can we know this name to call upon unless someone preaches and teaches it... So heres the big question: Who did the disciples preach and teach us to call upon? Jesus or Jehovah...? (Acts 5:42) (2 Cor 4:5)

So clearly they preached "Jesus" day and night as the name to call upon. Lets not talk about the person Jesus at this point, but rather his name. You must see that the name Jesus is equal to the name Jehovah of the Old Testament. That Paul applied Jer 23:6 and applied the name Jesus to this (Romans 10:9). Jesus is the name for us to call upon. So if we have 1 breath left for 1 word, let it be "JESUS".

Jesus speaking--proverbs-8

Who taught you this? Anyways, it is wisdom personified being talked about and there wasnt a time that God was without Wisdom. Wisdom was brought forth (Not Created) to play a role in creation (Pro 3:19) Wisdom is also called "Sister" at Proverbs 7:4 and has a female gender though out Proverbs. Are we to think Jesus are King as a female? Can I ask you who Prudence is at Pro 8:12...? (Wisdom and Prudence live together) Wisdom doesnt have a beginning and there was never a Time God was without Wisdom. The point is that Gods wisdom is as Eternal as God himself, never was God without Wisdom. Proverbs never says God was without wisdom but rather brought wisdom forth and never does it prophetically say that Jesus is this wisdom at Proverbs. Could we not say that Jesus brought forth Wisdom during creation or while on Earth Speaking? That doesnt mean there was a time Jesus was without wisdom either, just at some point brought it forth and showed us...

Also rev 3:14

God is called Beginning and End of all things. That doesnt mean he had a beginning nor and end. So why force Gods Image, the one expressing God, to not be the eternal Word (1John 1:1-5)... The Greek word used here is Arche and Architect is derived from this word. Just as the Father is the Beginning and End of all Creation, so is Jesus. Lift Jesus up!!

--cOLLOSIANS 1:15--THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL creation.

Firstborn doesnt mean first created... The word "Born" is an earthly event only. Jesus is Gods Firstborn as he is Marys Firstborn son (Luke 2:7) (Heb 1:6) Jesus is called Firstborn and any Jewish male was called Firstborn. Has Nothing to do with birth order but rather whos in Charge and Ranking. (Mat 28:18) Col 1:16 explains why he is called Firstborn.

BTW - no women are call Firstborn unless no brothers alive to claim it. Its fully a Ranking System to show whos in Charge of the Family... King David was Jesse's last son to be born and Yet was Jesse's Firstborn Son! This Wording was meant to Lift Jesus up not tear him down into a created Angel in which God himself says he never said to any angel "Today you are my Son"...

In Love

 

[icebuddy]

Most Jews did not see Jesus as the true Messiah, and so far most Christians did not see Baha'u'llah as the Return of Christ. I see a pattern here....

What about Joseph Smith? Do you see him as Gods Prophet as the LDS?

Would you agree that there will be False Prophets in the last days?

In Love

 

[Katzpur]

Well lets look at it... i posted out of what i remembered in my head, but i was thinking of Matt 16:18 where Jesus tells Peter(Petros - Large Rock) and upon this Rock I will build My Church, and the Gates of Hades (The powers of the infernal region) shall not overpower it. So it was the Gate of Hell, but i get the same thoughts from the passage.

Christ told Peter that the "gates of hell" would not prevail against His church. To a first-century Jewish-Christian (e.g. Peter and the other Apostles), the phrase "the gates of hell" would not have had the sinister connotations to attribute to it. "The gates of hell" would simply be referring to the entrance to the realm of the deceased, the place where the spirits of the dead resided. It wouldn't have even entered Peter's mind to think that Jesus was saying anything at all about "the Devil." I believe Christ was saying that His gospel would live on beyond the grave and that death couldn't conquer it. I believe that's how Peter would have understood His words.

Are you saying that the Church was overpowered and became lost at some point?

I'm saying that the Church that Jesus Christ established underwent changes over the centuries and that in time, it did not exist in the same form in which He left it. I'm not saying it ceased to exist entirely, but that men changed certain doctrines which He taught and that the authority He left with the Apostles was ultimately lost. Unless you are a Roman Catholic, I'm sure you'd agree that a great many changes took place in Christianity between the death of Christ and the Protestant Reformation.

Throughout the New Testament, the Apostles also warned of an impending "apostasia" (apostasy or falling away) that was to come in the near future. Paul seemed particularly concerned about the infant Church and frequently voiced his concerns to the early Christians. Among his statements to Christ's followers, are these:

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel…

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears…

Paul made it absolutely clear that (1)the flock would not only be attacked, it would not be spared, (2) Christ would not return to the earth until this universal "falling away" or "apostasy" had taken place, (3) these things were already beginning to take place as he spoke, and (4) the doctrines taught by the Savior would, in time, cease to endure.

What Religion are you or do you fellowship with?

I'm an LDS Christian.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What about Joseph Smith? Do you see him as Gods Prophet as the LDS?

This is what official Baha'i Sources says about Joseph Smith:

"As for the status of Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon Faith, he is not considered by Bahá'ís to be a prophet, minor or otherwise. But of course he was a religious teacher sensitive to the spiritual currents flowing in the early 19th century directly from the appearance of the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh and the Revelation of Their Messages of hope and Divine Guidance. In this respect you might find chapter ten in the late Hand of the Cause George Townshend's book, 'Christ and Bahá'u'lláh,' interesting."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, February 7, 1977)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 511)

Would you agree that there will be False Prophets in the last days?

In Love

Yes. There has always been false prophets, and the scriptures warn us, so people of God do not get mislead by them. However that does not mean there won't be True Prophets or Manifestations of God. We just need to do a careful investigation to find out. We know that around the time of Jesus there was other messianic claimants, but that did not stop those who were seeking for the real Messiah to give up searching. Today is no different.

 

[Katzpur]

Would you agree that there will be False Prophets in the last days?

There have always been false prophets, not just in the latter days. Why do you think the Apostles warned of them? Even though their words are pertinent to us today, they were actually initially directed to people living in the time just after Christ's death. And interestingly, they only warn of "false prophets," and not of prophets in general. If every prophet that was to come was a false prophet, they would have simply warned people not to listen to prophets at all.

 

[icebuddy]

We are discussing based on Bible. According to Bible, God is One. Simple as that...

God is One - Amen, but how does one define God or One? God in the Hebrew is in the Plural and God tells us that The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all part of this One God. You also find yourself defining God as a single digit identity when thats your own understanding of the word God. How do you view the word God in the Plural as written in Hebrew Texts? My God is truly Father, Savior, and Spirit.

For Example: One Cluster... Its not the word "One" that we define as Three Persons, its the word "God" that we see as revealed as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So what we see is One God(Father, Son, HS), One System, One Unity, One way...

in Love

 

[icebuddy]

Just some facts about 'incarnation':

1. The word incarnation is not found in the entire Bible.
2. If we look at the writing of saints in early Christianity, many of them did not use this term. They never called Jesus the incarnation of God.
3. The concept of incarnation existed in Greek Philosophy that predates Christianity.

Let me ask the question in a different Way. Do you believe Jesus Existed before born on Earth? If so, where does your belief place him?