The Trinity

[InvestigateTruth]

But that is not what the NT says. His followers go to the tomb and find it empty. Then, he appears to them. Then, to prove he is real, he lets Thomas touch the wounds and he says something like, you see it's me, I'm flesh and bone, not a ghost, and he eats with them. Then Thomas calls him Lord and my God.

These things were written as historical facts. They could be embellished or they could be complete lies, but that is the report from his followers. Jesus rose from the dead and is, to them, God. The Baha'i explanation avoids the empty tomb and his post resurrection appearances. Are they fabrications? Was Mohammad right and somebody that looked like Jesus was crucified in his place? Did the body of Jesus die and then rotted away?

I can't imagine the psychological damage that Christians will have to go through if it's the Baha'is that have it right. It definitely cannot be said, if the Baha'is are right, that God is not the author of confusion.The bulk of the Christian world believes that Jesus died for their sins. That he is God in the flesh. That he rose from the dead. And that it is him, Jesus, that is coming back and will cast the devil into hell along with all the unbelievers. If the Baha'is are right, everything they believed to be true is a lie. Everything they thought the NT said is wrong. They are not justified by faith. Jesus did not atone for their sins. He is dead and buried somewhere. And, somehow, if they were truly tuned in to God, they would have followed the "true" word of God for the day, Mohammad, when he came.

Obviously, I'm still having trouble seeing how all this is a "progression". I've got another question from one of your later posts. I'll get to that on my next post. Thanks.

But the Authors of NT did not say they were writing literal history Book. On the contrary there are too many verses that indicates it was written in Figurative Language. These are just few of many verses:


"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father." John 16:25

"Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them." John 10:6

"Jesus spoke all these things in parables to the multitudes; and without a parable, he didn't speak to them," Matthew 13:34


Again, the interpretations belong to God (see Genesis 40:8). Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of God, and therefore what He says is the Truth. And the Proof of Baha'u'llah is clear. He was like the Sun, who had His Own light, meaning He had divine knowledge, without having any teachers or going to school He knew all things, and He wrote more than 17000 works free from error. If He wasn't a Manifestation, then how did He know all those things? But the Christian leaders who interpreted Bible literally, were ordinary men that got their knowledge through learning, they were not a Manifestation of God. I find it ironic people rely on mere men, rather than a Manifestation of God, who fulfills Prophecies of return of Christ, but again it is up to people to choose their own way, or the way their Lord.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

To the Christian, there is no "prophet" like Jesus.

Except Baha'u'llah is the Return of Christ. Then why some Christians became Muslims at the time of Muhammad, and many also became Baha'i now?

John 12:31 says that judgment is upon the world and that the "ruler" of this world will be cast out. John 16:11 says the ruler of this world has been judged. Judged? Cast out? Sorry, but in context, the ruler of this world seems to be talking about Satan.

No, that is Jesus. It was Jesus who was the Prince Messiah, and He was treated badly and condemned wrongfully by people of His time. Jesus was alluding about Himself in those verses.

Main teachings of the Bible? Not "Hear oh Israel, the Lord God is one God"? Or, "You must be born again"? But Gen 40:8? I know since it is a "main" teaching, I should know it by heart, but I had to look it up. It seems that Pharaoh's officials had a dream and they couldn't interpret it. Then, Joseph told them, "Do not interpretations belong to God?" And then, Joseph interprets it for them? So do you consider Joseph a "manifestation" also?

So when we do consider "main" teachings, again, all, or at least most, Christian teachings, even though based on the NT, are all wrong? Let's look at the growing list. We already have Jesus is not God. He didn't bodily rise from the dead. We can add that Satan and hell aren't real. There is no original sin or a sin nature that requires Jesus to die to get people "saved" from going to hell. So what do Christians believe that a Baha'i would consider "The Truth"? All the main ones you consider misinterpretations.

The Bible already prophesied that false teachers would rise in Christianity. Jesus also alluded that "The Sun shall be darkened, the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall"....All these in Figurative Language refers to fading light of true knowledge within Christian Faith. We know that because Baha'u'llah who is the Manifestation of God revealed it for us. Let's remember that Jesus said: "I was speaking Figuratively, but in another time I shall speak plainly", we now know the meaning of His words, because Baha'u'llah, return of Christ explain everything for us plainly.

 

[Shiranui117]

Except Baha'u'llah is the Return of Christ. Then why some Christians became Muslims at the time of Muhammad, and many also became Baha'i now?

Did Baha'u'llah come down from Heaven in the same way that Jesus ascended? No? Then he's not the return of Christ. Some Christians became Muslims because it was either become Muslim or die at the sword as "kuffari".

 

[CG Didymus]

But the Authors of NT did not say they were writing literal history Book. On the contrary there are too many verses that indicates it was written in Figurative Language. These are just few of many verses:
Again, the interpretations belong to God (see Genesis 40:8)... But the Christian leaders who interpreted Bible literally, were ordinary men that got their knowledge through learning, they were not a Manifestation of God. I find it ironic people rely on mere men...

So Christians never had it right. They never saw a risen Lord, but they were troubled and after 3 days said, "Hey guys, let's go spread the word that Jesus was a cool guy and wanted us all to love each other." And talking about ordinary men, not only was it mere men that interpreted the NT, it was "mere" men that wrote it also. So they wrote about what they thought happened and what they thought Jesus said, but all of it was figurative even though they thought it was real? Yeah, makes sense in a distorted kind of way. God let 600 years of wrong belief go by before he "corrected" it with Mohammad. And still, many Christians refused to see the light. So now 1800 years go by and they still can't see the truth, that their Book is The Truth, but only in a figurative way. Yeah, I understand now. The NT is a useless piece of writings that nobody understood until the Baha'is.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Did Baha'u'llah come down from Heaven in the same way that Jesus ascended? No? Then he's not the return of Christ. Some Christians became Muslims because it was either become Muslim or die at the sword as "kuffari".

Yes, He did! I quote Baha'u'llah:

"He, verily, hath again come down from heaven, even as He came down from it the first time. Beware lest ye dispute that which He proclaimeth, even as the people before you disputed His utterances. Thus instructeth you the True One, could ye but perceive it. "

Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 9-17

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So Christians never had it right. They never saw a risen Lord, but they were troubled and after 3 days said, "Hey guys, let's go spread the word that Jesus was a cool guy and wanted us all to love each other." And talking about ordinary men, not only was it mere men that interpreted the NT, it was "mere" men that wrote it also. So they wrote about what they thought happened and what they thought Jesus said, but all of it was figurative even though they thought it was real? Yeah, makes sense in a distorted kind of way. God let 600 years of wrong belief go by before he "corrected" it with Mohammad. And still, many Christians refused to see the light. So now 1800 years go by and they still can't see the truth, that their Book is The Truth, but only in a figurative way. Yeah, I understand now. The NT is a useless piece of writings that nobody understood until the Baha'is.

Yes, Jesus said He was speaking in Figurative Language, and when He returns He speaks plainly. See chapter of John.





Also Daniel said: the Book of God would remain 'sealed' until the end:

"He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. 10"Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand" Daniel 12:9-10

 

[Shiranui117]

Yes, He did! I quote Baha'u'llah:

"He, verily, hath again come down from heaven, even as He came down from it the first time. Beware lest ye dispute that which He proclaimeth, even as the people before you disputed His utterances. Thus instructeth you the True One, could ye but perceive it. "

Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 9-17

Err... No. This is what the Scriptures say, in Acts 1:
And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

In other words, no, Jesus would not be born again. He would descend from Heaven the same way He ascended.

 

[Shiranui117]

Yes, Jesus said He was speaking in Figurative Language, and when He returns He speaks plainly. See chapter of John.





Also Daniel said: the Book of God would remain 'sealed' until the end:

"He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. 10"Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand" Daniel 12:9-10

So basically, Christianity is a false religion, and not true, and not started by Jesus, but by His misguided and confused and misled Apostles according to you. Right?

 

[Shiranui117]

But the Authors of NT did not say they were writing literal history Book. On the contrary there are too many verses that indicates it was written in Figurative Language. These are just few of many verses:


"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father." John 16:25

"Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them." John 10:6

"Jesus spoke all these things in parables to the multitudes; and without a parable, he didn't speak to them," Matthew 13:34

There's plenty of evidence that Jesus used figurative language, sure. But there's no shred of evidence that the narrative and story in the Gospels is written figuratively. The Apostles wrote a literal history about their encounters with Christ, Who occasionally spoke figuratively. Using Jesus' words about His occasionally speaking figuratively, and taking that to mean that the history in the Gospels never really happened, is a failure of basic reading comprehension that not even an elementary school child would be fooled into making.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Err... No. This is what the Scriptures say, in Acts 1:
And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

In other words, no, Jesus would not be born again. He would descend from Heaven the same way He ascended.

In fact the verse shows Jesus will not come down literally from sky, for the verse blames them for standing there: "why do you stand looking into heaven?"
Meaning that you would not see Jesus coming down from sky, therefore don't look at sky. It should be noted that Christ kept emphasizing that you must watch, because His coming is like a thief in the night, that is both suddenly, and in a way the theif might be home, but the owner is unaware. If Jesus was coming down literally, then everyone would see Him, then why would Jesus keep saying 'watch for my return'?

Speaking of 'coming down' or 'going to heaven', in the light of the whole bible, we see that for example Jesus said "I came down from Heaven" even though He had come from the womb of Mary, He also said: "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man". Likewise we read that according to Bible, Elijah went up to Heaven. It is then deduced that Elijah must have come down from Heaven according to the words of Jesus. But what does it mean 'coming down from Heaven'? It has nothing to do with the virgin birth of Jesus, for Elijah was not born from virgin.
Again going to the lovely teaching of Bible, that Christ was like a Mirror who manifested image of God in Him, meaning that the Perfections of God that was manifested in Christ had come from 'heaven'. This is a spiritual Reality, not an outward physical fact.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So basically, Christianity is a false religion, and not true, and not started by Jesus, but by His misguided and confused and misled Apostles according to you. Right?

That is incorrect conclusion. The teachings of Christ and apostles were written in figurative, and parables in Bible. Some of the saints who were wise had understood and discovered the meaning of these parables and perhaps many of the Figurative verses. But eventually literal reading became dominant in Christianity, and false teachers as prophesied appeared, and as Christ said the stars (Religious Leaders) did fall.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

...The Apostles wrote a literal history about their encounters with Christ,...

There is nothing to support this. Let's see what the scriptures say about this:

"All Scripture is inspired by God ....." 2 Timothy 3:16

'inspired' means God revealed to them how the Book must be written. It is not like any regular history book, that some regular historian men go write their own experiences or research. And we read in Bible, God inspire men in their visions and dreams. One of the very Basic teachings of Bible is, God inspires using 'figures and symbols' in dreams or visions. no one other than Christ Himself has the perfect knowledge and authority to tell us the interpretations of Bible, and Baha'u'llah fulfilled the Prophecies of Return of Christ. I have already explained briefly the proof. The interpretations that I see from mainstream Christian leaders, is fundamentally similar to how the Jewish leaders at the time of Jesus used to interpret the Scriptures, that clinging to literal interpretations and traditions as narrated by teacher. Moreover the Christian Leaders have not been consistent in their approach to interpret the scriptures. On one hand they interpret the verses regarding the Messiah in OT, as symbolic and figurative to show Jesus is Messiah, on the other hand, they interpret the verses regarding the second coming of Christ literal...not consistent in my view.

 

[Shiranui117]

In fact the verse shows Jesus will not come down literally from sky, for the verse blames them for standing there: "why do you stand looking into heaven?"
Meaning that you would not see Jesus coming down from sky, therefore don't look at sky. It should be noted that Christ kept emphasizing that you must watch, because His coming is like a thief in the night, that is both suddenly, and in a way the theif might be home, but the owner is unaware. If Jesus was coming down literally, then everyone would see Him, then why would Jesus keep saying 'watch for my return'?

Speaking of 'coming down' or 'going to heaven', in the light of the whole bible, we see that for example Jesus said "I came down from Heaven" even though He had come from the womb of Mary, He also said: "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man". Likewise we read that according to Bible, Elijah went up to Heaven. It is then deduced that Elijah must have come down from Heaven according to the words of Jesus. But what does it mean 'coming down from Heaven'? It has nothing to do with the virgin birth of Jesus, for Elijah was not born from virgin.

Except the angels didn't tell the Apostles that Jesus would come down the second time the same way He did the first. They said that, in the same way that Jesus ascended into heaven (that is, by soaring up beyond the clouds and vanishing). He would return (that is, appearing in the clouds and coming down on the clouds of Heaven, as He Himself said to the Sanhedrin at His trial).

And we are told to watch for Christ's return because we know THAT He will return from Heaven and HOW, but we don't know WHEN. This is what Jesus meant when He said that He would return like a thief in the night. Quoting from the Gospel of St. Matthew, chapter 24:
But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into.

Again going to the lovely teaching of Bible, that Christ was like a Mirror who manifested image of God in Him, meaning that the Perfections of God that was manifested in Christ had come from 'heaven'. This is a spiritual Reality, not an outward physical fact.

Correction: The teaching of the Baha'i Faith that doesn't have a shred of Biblical support without completely mangling what the Bible says. Figurative or symbolic language doesn't contradict the literal reading like the Baha'i position does.

 

[Shiranui117]

There is nothing to support this. Let's see what the scriptures say about this:

"All Scripture is inspired by God ....." 2 Timothy 3:16

'inspired' means God revealed to them how the Book must be written. It is not like any regular history book, that some regular historian men go write their own experiences or research. And we read in Bible, God inspire men in their visions and dreams. One of the very Basic teachings of Bible is, God inspires using 'figures and symbols' in dreams or visions. no one other than Christ Himself has the perfect knowledge and authority to tell us the interpretations of Bible, and Baha'u'llah fulfilled the Prophecies of Return of Christ. I have already explained briefly the proof. The interpretations that I see from mainstream Christian leaders, is fundamentally similar to how the Jewish leaders at the time of Jesus used to interpret the Scriptures, that clinging to literal interpretations and traditions as narrated by teacher. Moreover the Christian Leaders have not been consistent in their approach to interpret the scriptures. On one hand they interpret the verses regarding the Messiah in OT, as symbolic and figurative to show Jesus is Messiah, on the other hand, they interpret the verses regarding the second coming of Christ literal...not consistent in my view.

Your belief that the narratives in the Gospels is figurative like the visions and dreams of the prophets is completely unfounded. Every time the prophets had a vision or dream, it was described as such in the Bible. The Apostles weren't writing down visions or dreams, they were writing down what they experienced in the real world--we know this because absolutely none of the language denoting that something is a dream or vision is present in the narratives of the Gospels. Their experience of Christ transfigured on Mt. Tabor and their seeing Him literally and physically risen from the dead weren't mere dreams or visions like what the Prophets had. The Apostles saw and experienced Christ's transfiguration and resurrection in the real world, and it wasn't figurative, but it was 100% literal and real. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that indicates otherwise.

 

[sojourner]

But the Authors of NT did not say they were writing literal history Book.

Luke did. Luke-Acts is constructed and reads precisely as ancient history.

"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father." John 16:25

And then later on in John, the disciples say, "Now you are speaking plainly..."

the interpretations belong to God

Yes, in the sense that the church, being the Body of Christ -- who is God Incarnate -- interprets the texts.

 

[sojourner]

That is incorrect conclusion. The teachings of Christ and apostles were written in figurative, and parables in Bible. Some of the saints who were wise had understood and discovered the meaning of these parables and perhaps many of the Figurative verses. But eventually literal reading became dominant in Christianity, and false teachers as prophesied appeared, and as Christ said the stars (Religious Leaders) did fall.

There was no bible until at least 400 years after Christ. In the very beginning there were only oral stories, shared by believers. The first gospel wasn't written until 40 years after the crucifixion.

What was shared earliest were oral quotations of Jesus.

 

[sojourner]

"All Scripture is inspired by God ....." 2 Timothy 3:16

You, of course, realize that the author of Timothy didn't consider any of the NT books to be "scripture."

 

[sojourner]

There is nothing to support this. Let's see what the scriptures say about this:

"All Scripture is inspired by God ....." 2 Timothy 3:16

'inspired' means God revealed to them how the Book must be written. It is not like any regular history book, that some regular historian men go write their own experiences or research. And we read in Bible, God inspire men in their visions and dreams. One of the very Basic teachings of Bible is, God inspires using 'figures and symbols' in dreams or visions. no one other than Christ Himself has the perfect knowledge and authority to tell us the interpretations of Bible, and Baha'u'llah fulfilled the Prophecies of Return of Christ. I have already explained briefly the proof. The interpretations that I see from mainstream Christian leaders, is fundamentally similar to how the Jewish leaders at the time of Jesus used to interpret the Scriptures, that clinging to literal interpretations and traditions as narrated by teacher. Moreover the Christian Leaders have not been consistent in their approach to interpret the scriptures. On one hand they interpret the verses regarding the Messiah in OT, as symbolic and figurative to show Jesus is Messiah, on the other hand, they interpret the verses regarding the second coming of Christ literal...not consistent in my view.

The teachings and texts are not some "secret knowledge." They are the written part of the Tradition of the people who follow Christ.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Your belief that the narratives in the Gospels is figurative like the visions and dreams of the prophets is completely unfounded. Every time the prophets had a vision or dream, it was described as such in the Bible. The Apostles weren't writing down visions or dreams, they were writing down what they experienced in the real world--we know this because absolutely none of the language denoting that something is a dream or vision is present in the narratives of the Gospels. Their experience of Christ transfigured on Mt. Tabor and their seeing Him literally and physically risen from the dead weren't mere dreams or visions like what the Prophets had. The Apostles saw and experienced Christ's transfiguration and resurrection in the real world, and it wasn't figurative, but it was 100% literal and real. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that indicates otherwise.

Sometimes the apostles in gospels did say they had a vision, and besides that, the chapter of revelation is full of statements that John saw visions....Other parts of NT written by Paul also must be through inspiration, ....in either case it is irrelevant if they did say it is a vision or not every time...the fact is when the Scriptures is said to be inspired by God, it goes beyond literal history Book. Jesus said He was speaking Figurative in His first coming and that He comes again the second time He speaks Plainly. In either case it is not for us to decide if it is written literal or figurative, whatever God says we must accept, and Baha'u'llah who is the Manifestation of God fulfilled the Prophecies of Return of Christ, and unsealed the Book of God.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

And then later on in John, the disciples say, "Now you are speaking plainly..."

That just means that the apostles were told plainly that Jesus was speaking figuratively.

Yes, in the sense that the church, being the Body of Christ -- who is God Incarnate -- interprets the texts.

Which church? there are so many churches. each have different interpretation. Also there has been many scandals in every church, how can we say such churches were body of Christ?