The Trinity

[icebuddy]

Notice the differences in these translations (below) from the ones that word it to appear that there are two separate beings, both called Jehovah. Which translations should one take seriously? They are not saying the same thing.....you may notice if paying close attention.

Let me ask you a question: Who is Israels King and Redeemer today? i ask this because its Jesus. They even put it on his Cross and there is no other name for them to call upon on earth. (Jesus) Again, you need a Greek to english OT bible (Septuagent)

As for Isa 44:24 it is Jehovah in that verse, and I can post several verses that say that Jehovah created, that God is the creator.

Jesus is Creator too (John 1:3 and Col1:16)

The doctrine of the trinity does exist, but it is not found in the bible; especially if one were to pay close attention to Jesus' words. It is the doctrine that exist not the trinity.

I see that Jesus is God all over the bible, the whole thing points to him. I now know why you think allot like Slo. I always accused him of picking what ever bible agrees with his belief and not 1 bible in complete would agree with him. i bet you also have problem picking up one bible and agreeing with it 100%, in need of finding an alternate bible with an english translation that blurs what is being said in the Hebrew or the Greek. Most X-JW have come to learn the truth by reading the KIT of the NWT. I believe its called Kingdom Interlinear of the Greek Scriptures. I would also get a Septuagent (Hebrew to Greek with English word for word) in it you can see where the English language takes liberties in different translations that are just not there...

In Love,
tom

 

[icebuddy]

Usually, only Catholics wear a cross. Those who see it will think you're Catholic.

The Main difference is that Catholics wear Crosses with Jesus still on it and Christians wear Crosses alone (No Jesus on it)

 

[icebuddy]

I use that verse to show that he is the image of God, and not God...... to discuss my view on that there is no Trinity. That is usually my intention...:flower2:

Let me ask you the same question : When was Jesus born? Was he born twice or just once? Explain too

 

[icebuddy]

Notice that Jesus doesn't say "our God". Rather, He says "My God and your God". This means that the Father is Jesus' God in a different way than He is our God.

Also this is for JENSEN too: Jensen, you have pulled out many bibles and seem to pick one that agrees with your belief. (Thats how it looks to me) Why can "I" do the same thing? For example, i pulled out my NIV and it reads exactly how i understand it

Rev 3:14 (NIV) — “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation.

NLT - “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen—the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s new creation:

YLT - 'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness -- the faithful and true -- the chief of the creation of God;

HNV - "To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: "The Amein, the Faithful and True Witness, the Head of God's creation, says these things:

** With this in mind, can you see how one like myself sees this verse? Also the Father is called "Beginning and End" of all things. If Jesus is truly the Image of God expressing him 100%, then why when the same word "Beginning" of all things is applied to Jesus you see him as Created but when Applied to the Father you see him as Ruler or Head of creation? These are things people need to think about....

In Love

 

[icebuddy]

That's not a bad analogy. I personally like sand, water and salt--three distinct things, yet all indisputably one ocean.

i like the universe - Time, Space, and Matter

 

[icebuddy]

We were talking about rev 3:14---where Jesus himself tells all he was created first

the word "Created" is never used in any bible (at Rev 3:14) either in the Greek or English. If it where, the WTBS would have used the Greek word for "First Created". I assure you that this never used. This only shows your bias towards the word "Firstborn".

Again I ask, when what Jesus born? Also, was he born twice or once?

So he doesn't need to say our God--My God--- is 100% proof that the trinity teaching is a made up lie from centuries ago and 2 billion are being mislead--to not enter Gods kingdom. That's if one truly loves Jesus enough to believe him over mens dogma.

Its clear to me you "HATE" the trinity, but explain to me why. I look to the Image of God and say, "MY Lord and My God". I see the Father as God, his only true Son as God, and the Spirit as God all in harmony, yet in a orderly fashion as our One Great God Almighty. The Father is the Head of God, Jesus is the Image of God, and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. Ask yourself what Satan would do? Would Satan look to Jesus as say, "My Lord or my God" or would Satan say to the Image of God, "NOT GOD, Not my worship", lie...

Satan would never Lift Jesus up in any way shape or Form. As Jesus says, A kingdom at war with itself just cant stand, not even the Devil is that dumb... (To wage war on himself)

In Love

 

[Jensen]

Jesus says that He and the Father are ONE. He never says that He and His Apostles are one.

Jesus did say this to his followers.

Maybe you should consider these verses....


John 17:20-24
22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. 24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

When Jesus says that he and the Father are one, he is not saying that he is God or that there is a trinity, otherwise we all, including the Apostles, would be in the Father as he is. And he in us. Besides, the trinity does not teach that Jesus, the son, is the Father.

Jensen

 

[icebuddy]

Revelation 3:14--the beginning of the creation by God. Proverbs 8:23=Jesus( all of 8 ) Collosians 1:15-- the firstborn of all creation. That is why rev 3:12 is stressed by Jesus 4 times---believe Jesus.

I like that: Believe Jesus... What Im about to say may be read in different ways, but im just pointing things out...

Jesus says there is a place spirits go at death - Luke 16:22-28 (Do you believe him or what your religious organization thinks others verses might mean)

Jesus says he is the First and Last, Alpha and omega in Rev 22. Do you believe that or do you understand it differently...?

Jesus says when he returns it will not be done in secret. So if people say Jesus is here or there in the inner rooms dont believe them.... (1914 - what hapend exactly?)

Thomas just dropped to his knees and sais to Jesus, "My Lord and My God" and Jesus blessed him and those in the future that believe the same. The WTBS doesnt think Thomas called Jesus God and has changed their understanding of this 2-3 times. Dont forget that Jesus has been running the WTBS invisible since 1914 too. I would expect to see such drastic changes if that where true...

Jesus says many things that the WTBS says he didnt really mean it like that

These verses you listed need to be looked at

Rev 3:14 - Beginning of Creation - God is called Beginning and End of all things, why wouldnt his Image also be called the Beginning and End of Creation as well? Why when the word Beginning is applied to Jesus one sees "Created" but when applied to the one in whom Jesus exactly images one says this means Ruler or Beginner?

Proverbs 8 - This is absurd, God is never without Wisdom and one cant be 100% sure if this wisdom is Jesus anyways. Wisdom is a Sister, woman, and lives with Prudence. I would also like to see where you believe wisdom was created and that God was without wisdom at any time... Gods wisdom is as eternal as God himself!

Col 1:15 - Ask yourself when Jesus was Born? Also, do you believe he was born Twice? Then look into what the word "Firstborn" meant to a Jew

Rev 3:12 - Jesus was God and with God (John 1:1), Although he was God and in the form of God (Phil 2:5-7) he didnt reguard that something to hold onto because he loved us very much. The Eternal word (1John 1:1-4) emptied Himself to become a man. As a man, just like us, he now has a God the Father and became the Fathers Firstborn (Rom 8:29 / Heb 1:6 / Mt 28:18) son, heir to all creation as a man. After Jesus died and rose as all men will, Jesus still is the man who mediates for us (1 tim 2:5) and Awaits until all things are made Right until God will be All in all just as it was before the world began...

Simple

 

[icebuddy]

Jesus is not God.:no:

Jensen, i will always warn you when you say this. Fact is that only in English can you say this. If you where Greek (Language of the NT) you could not say this without being in error. Dont forget you cannot say this in Hebrew either (Isaiah 9:6)

Jesus is Mighty God!

Jesus is God!

If Jesus is fully and exactly expressing God to the Fullest, why then when you think of Jesus you think, "NOT GOD"? (john 20:28)

In Love

 

[Shiranui117]

Jesus did say this to his followers.

Maybe you should consider these verses....


John 17:20-24
22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. 24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

When Jesus says that he and the Father are one, he is not saying that he is God or that there is a trinity, otherwise we all, including the Apostles, would be in the Father as he is. And he in us. Besides, the trinity does not teach that Jesus, the son, is the Father.

Jensen

Except, Jesus and His Father are one. Jesus prays that the Apostles may be one with each other, with Him and with His Father. There is a communion between the Persons of the Trinity, and it is this communion in which we are all called to share (2 Peter 1:4). We do not become God, but we do become "gods"--that is, we each realize the likeness of God within ourselves to which we are called to attain, and thus become like God, and "gods" by grace. We remain creatures, yet creatures which reflect God inasmuch as our progress in theosis enables us to.

With the Apostles, Jesus prays for unity and communion. With Him and His Father, Jesus speaks of His identity as God. Why else would the Jews try to stone Jesus for blasphemy? Indeed, the Jews themselves understood that Jesus was making Himself out to be God. Jesus did not deny this. If Jesus was stating that He had communion with the Father only, this would not have gotten Him stoned, and would have been no big deal to the Jews. But Jesus was saying more than this, and the Jews knew it.

 

[Jensen]

In Jewish Tradition you are who you are the Son of... Son of Man=Man and Son of God=God. So in essence Jesus pushed through with a sideways answer. How can you say that Im am not God when I am the Son of God or How can you say that I am not Man when I am the Son of Man...

Yes, all that makes God God, was housed in our Lord Jesus. (Col 2:9)

Yes, and all of that was inside Jesus the man... Later the Father lifts Jesus up to the highest. (Equal to God, not above, as he was before the world began)

Jesus said 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? ...when he was accused that he was making himself out to be God, he was denying what the Jews were accusing him of (being God) when he corrected them with his answer that he is the Son of God. There is no more to his meaning then just what he answered.

When he said in verse ...29..... My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all;.....I think that he meant it just as he said...the Father is greater then all;

He is the Son of God, and one in purpose and will, with his Father. And he also said that we all are one with the Father and with him. He was not stating that he is the Father, and the trinity does not claim he is the Father.....to do so is what is called Oneness, and not the trinity.

i see holes in your theology. God alone Created no one was with him, yet you say Jesus was there with him and not God at the same time...

In my post, that post, I was not on the topic of creation. Nor do I remember saying anything on creation in that post. Are you trying to change the subject?

God also says he alone is savior, yet you say he created Jesus to be our Savior...

What are you replying to, I did not speak of the subject in my post.

You see the Term "Son of Man" and see Jesus as a Man... You see "Son of God" and you see anything but God...

Actually, when I see Son of Man I see Son of Man, and when I see Son of God I see Son of God. Sons.....not sons being their father.

I know, but you dont truly understand what the term "Son of God" actually means... Roman Leader of the Day thought themselves to be Gods and said they where the Sons of Gods. Jesus Comes along and says he is the only True "Son of God"... So I ask you, if Jesus is Truly God Son, would he not be God with God and everything Fit nicely together...

I am not going to define my understanding of Son of God by the thought of Roman leaders, Very bad example Tom, being that the bible was not written by them.

What fits nicely together is believing what the bible says so many times, God the Father and Son of God. One Yahweh the other Jesus.

Jensen

 

[Jensen]

And we Trinitarians affirm very strongly that God is One, and apart from Him there is none. Jesus and the Father are not two separate beings, but rather two Persons in one Being, and one Being in two Persons.

John
17 These things Jesus spoke, and lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee;
2 as thou hast given him authority over all flesh, that [as to] all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal.
3 And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.


Jesus here is talking to the Father and calls him the only true God.
It can't get any plainer.

 

[Desert Snake]

John
17 These things Jesus spoke, and lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee;
2 as thou hast given him authority over all flesh, that [as to] all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal.
3 And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.


Jesus here is talking to the Father and calls him the only true God.
It can't get any plainer.

How accepted is this viewpoint in the Xian churches?

 

[Jensen]

Im not sure how to make this any clearer to you, but if you where to read Psalms 102:25-27 to any Jew, who would they say is being talked about? They would ALL say Almighty God or God or the LORD, or YHWH (However one addresses the supreme being).

If I were to read it?1 I have read Psalms 102 and have stated already that I believe it to be God. So bring it up again as if I hadn't read it? See my post 2585 it says Adonai, in Psalms 102 the name Adonai that is used in this verse is only ever used for God the Father and never for Jesus.

The Father quotes this passage and applies it directly to Jesus in Hebrews 1:10-12. Namely letting us know that Jesus is NOT created nor an Angel, but YHWH also. That is why we read passages like 1 Cor 10:1-4 telling us that Jesus is the ROCK that was with them (who they all knew as and called God)

Remember that Jesus is the representative of the Father, and in these verses it has God saying ( Hebrews 1:5-14) Sit on my right hand,
not that he is saying that he is God.
Also I already covered those verses.

My discussion isn't about whether Jesus is created or an angel, so why do you bring that up? It blurs the subject. Why do you veer off the topic so much? You do.

Jensen

ask anyone here who is a Trinitarian on this page if that know this or agree with me. You will be supprised

maybe you didnt follow me correctly, but I put it again above in easier terms...

In Love

 

[Jensen]

Actually, what icebuddy said regarding Jesus being the Lord of the Old Testament is the common and almost universal interpretation of all the Fathers of the Eastern Orthodox Church from the earliest centuries and right on down the line.

And if you were to ask Jews that believe in and practice Judaism they would say that Jesus is not the God of the OT, being that they do not even believe that he is their messiah, least of all their God, Jesus that is.

I guess they are too stupid to know who their God really was all that time, since some Christians say it is Jesus, and they would not accept this.

 

[Jensen]

Jesus is the Image of God, All the Fullness of what makes God God is dwelling inside this image, Jesus is creator of all things, Jesus is the Rock, Jesus is YHWH of the Old Testament with the Father (The Father even points this out and Paul tells us not to miss this), The list piles up high... You next answer shows how badly you and I think so differently...

Ouch, Are you fully prepared to say this directly to Jesus at death? I urge you to reconsider. Jesus is the one in whom made Moses "a god".... Do you not see this...? How can you say they are the same? Jesus Made Moses!

You are focused on a Jesus that was humbled beneath even Angels. Jesus did not say better, but greater. For the name Father and Son indicate this just by itself... My boss is greater than me at work, but we are both Equally Men. Jesus was lower than the Angels (Heb 2:9) and could have said angels are greater, but this in no way Strips Jesus of Creating the Angels and being God. For Jesus Emptied himself (Phil 2:6) and this is the Jesus you are focused upon. A Humbled Jesus who did this so he could die a mans death for our Sins and you continue to look to this Jesus as his current and always existence...? Seriously, read Phil 2:6-7 and say to yourself, is this the Jesus I keep pointing out in his humbled State? That is why the Father and Paul keep pointing Jesus out as God of the Old Testament for they want us to know what Jesus sacrificed for us... Heb 1:10-12 / 1 Cor 10:1-5 / 1John1:1-5

Now read Rev 22:12-21 and see that Jesus is "THE GOD" with the Father and Holy Spirit... (Who Judges, Who is Coming, Who is on the clouds, who?)

Jesus is the one... (To the Glory of the Father and proclaimed by the Spirit)

After reading this it appears to me that you have God Yahweh as having done absolutely nothing. He wasn't the God of the OT, he was't the God that created, he wasn't the God that made covenants with his people, he wasn't and isn't even God to you, that it was all done by Jesus, that Jesus is the Almighty God. That is Oneness, Tom.

So what has God Jehovah been doing all this time? since you have Jesus doing it all. See my point? You have the Father being of no useful purpose whatever.You may elevate Jesus, but you displace God almost entirely.That is how I see it.
Sorry. God bless...

Jensen

 

[Shiranui117]

And if you were to ask Jews that believe in and practice Judaism they would say that Jesus is not the God of the OT, being that they do not even believe that he is their messiah, least of all their God, Jesus that is.

I guess they are too stupid to know who their God really was all that time, since some Christians say it is Jesus, and they would not accept this.

Of course the Jews know Who their God is--they know that He is YHWH, and that He is absolutely and perfectly One, and that there is none besides Him. But their rejection of Jesus as both Lord and Messiah led them to reject God's full revelation of Who He is. Their view of God being wholly and perfectly One and undivided is spot-on--we Orthodox confess the same thing during the Divine Liturgy. It's just that Jesus revealed more of Who God is--and by extension, Who Jesus is.

After reading this it appears to me that you have God Yahweh as having done absolutely nothing. He wasn't the God of the OT, he was't the God that created, he wasn't the God that made covenants with his people, he wasn't and isn't even God to you, that it was all done by Jesus, that Jesus is the Almighty God. That is Oneness, Tom.

So what has God Jehovah been doing all this time? since you have Jesus doing it all. See my point? You have the Father being of no useful purpose whatever.You may elevate Jesus, but you displace God almost entirely.That is how I see it.
Sorry. God bless...

Jensen

Jesus is Yahweh. The Father is Yahweh. The Holy Spirit is Yahweh. This is what it means that these three Persons are one God--each of them are "I AM THAT I AM."

Of course we believe Yahweh did everything. You act as if we believe Yahweh and Jesus are two different beings... They most certainly are not. The Father created through Jesus and in the Holy Spirit.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I do not believe this. The Bible says Fire will flash from their mouth if anyone tries to harm them. It says these witnesses will turn rivers and oceans into blood. It says these witnesses will Shut the sky from rain while they are here. It says they will unleash plagues at will. When they are done the Beast will come up and kill them and they will be dead in the main street of Jerusalem for 3.5 days and they will remain there until God raises them back to life in front of the world to see. Then rise into heaven...

Do you believe this already happened? I dont

In Love,
tom

Yes, that all happened. Baha'i Scriptures explains it in detail. To say I don't believe Baha'i Scriptures, therefore I don't agree is not going to work. It is as if, you explain to a person based on Bible that Jesus is Messiah. Should the person says, I don't believe in Bible, therefore I disagree is in no wise a debate, nor justifies the disagreement.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Do you also agree that before his Birth Jesus was the Eternal Word? God and With God....

We need to go back to basic teachings of Bible. a Person has Body, Soul and Spirit. The Body and Soul belong to an individual. Each Person has her/his own Body and Soul, which never existed prior to coming to womb. The body and Soul of Jesus never existed before He as an embryonic started to exist in the womb. However other than body and soul, there is Spirit to. This Spirit is the manifestation of the Perfections of God, that always existed with God. This is that Word that John 1 speaks of. It is like the light of the Sun, that always existed with the Sun. Now when Jesus appeared as a Person, with Body and Soul, the Perfections of God (Word) became manifested in His Soul. Because His Soul was like a Perfect Mirror, facing the Sun of Reality. Please try to look outside of the box of what you have learned from the teachers in your denomination, to understand a different view.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

To use your analogy, the mirror is not in the sun in any way, though one may say that "the sun is in the mirror", meaning that the light of the sun is in the mirror.

The Mirror is not in the Sun, but the light that is manifested in Mirror, is in the Sun too. Jesus is Mirror + the Light. Now I can see where the misunderstanding comes from.

Jesus says that He and the Father are ONE. He never says that He and His Apostles are one.

This oneness does not mean equality, neither means the same person, therefore it doesn't make your point that by this verse to prove Jesus is equal to God in station. It can mean one in purpose. The Purpose of Jesus was to be the Light so the Blind can see. We can see these points from scriptures:

"And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. " John 5:37

""You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." John 14:28

Jesus is called Light, Image of God, Sun of Righteousness, and His face became bright as the Sun, yes. But He is not called a mirror in the Scriptures.

Why do you think the early Saints called Jesus 'Mirror'? Where did they got this idea? Yes, He is alluded to Mirror in this verse:

"and we all, with unvailed face, the glory of the Lord beholding in a mirror, to the same image are being transformed, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." 2 cori 3-18

Look at the Bible commentary from Matthew Henry for example. He says We behold Christ, as in the glass of his word; and as the reflection from a mirror causes the face to shine, the faces of Christians shine also.

In another word, Christ is a Mirror that reflects the glory of God, to others.

The analogy does not exist in the Scriptures as you construct it. That's the difference. Every Christian from the early centuries that called Jesus a mirror did so in a manner different from how you Baha'i do. When they call Jesus a "mirror" of God, they mean something different than what you assert.

It is obvious what a Mirror is.

Because the Jews knew a Messianic prophecy when they saw one. This is why so many Jews became Christians--3,000 on the first day alone.

There is no parable in the Scriptures which is left unexplained. The parable is first given to illustrate an image, then the image is explained immediately after.

The fact is that vast numbers of Jews did recognize Him. It was getting so bad for the Jewish leaders that they abandoned the Septuagint and removed several prophetic books from the final cut of their canon and stuck to only certain textual traditions.

I doubt it Jews agree with these claims. Do you think they do?

Not at all. The NT books aren't the same as the OT books. We treat the Gospels literally because they are the firsthand accounts of what the Apostles did and saw and learned and experienced with the Lord. They're not figurative. The Apostles didn't die for symbolic accounts. They preached Christ risen physically from the dead and preached that He is God come to save the world, and died for that witness, because that is what they actually experienced. They didn't die defending symbolic stories. They died defending their own witness and testimony of what really happened.

It is only up to God to tell us, if the Book was written figurative or literal. Remember all Scriptures were inspired by God, not by men.

Also keep in mind that the Apostles personally trained and taught the Christian leaders. Your argument implies that the Apostles completely failed to teach their students.

The Apostles only taught according to the mission they were given.

These Psalm verses were applied to God directly in their original context. The author of Hebrews is using them to refer to Jesus. This is nothing other than Jesus being identified as God.[FONT=&quot]

The image of the Sun in the Mirror explains these. Note the difference between Manifestation and incarnation of God. Jesus was a Manifestation of God on earth.

I have many more examples I can pull up. Needless to say, St. John was teaching that Jesus is in fact God--practically every Biblical scholar recognizes that Jesus is considered divine and is identified as God in St. John's Gospel

No He wasn't teaching Jesus is God Himself. He was teaching the Perfections of God became manifested in Jesus, and same perfections can become manifested in others.