The Trinity

[Shiranui117]

The Mirror is not in the Sun, but the light that is manifested in Mirror, is in the Sun too. Jesus is Mirror + the Light. Now I can see where the misunderstanding comes from.

Then you should edit your analogy to reflect that.

This oneness does not mean equality, neither means the same person, therefore it doesn't make your point that by this verse to prove Jesus is equal to God in station. It can mean one in purpose. The Purpose of Jesus was to be the Light so the Blind can see. We can see these points from scriptures:

"And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. " John 5:37

""You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." John 14:28

This explanation is wholly unsatisfactory. If Jesus was simply saying that He and the Father were one in purpose, then the Jews would not have tried to stone Him for blasphemy. The Jews were no strangers to the concept of humans walking with God, doing His will and making His purpose their purpose. Jesus saying that He is merely one in purpose with God would have been all fine and dandy. But He wasn't saying that. He was saying more than that; the Jews know that Jesus is claiming to be God, and they say as much. Jesus doesn't deny or correct the Jews' understanding; He lets their assessment stand as correct.

The Father sent Jesus, yes. And the Father is not greater than the Son in terms of the Father being God and Jesus being a creature, or that God is more powerful than Jesus, or more majestic, or more divine. The Father is greater than Jesus because of their relationship--the three Persons of the Trinity each have relationships with each other. The Father is the arche of the Trinity, or the foundation, or the source of the Trinity. God the Son (Jesus) is eternally begotten of the Father; there was never a time when the Son was not. And then the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father, and is sent to earth by the Father and the Son.

Why do you think the early Saints called Jesus 'Mirror'? Where did they got this idea? Yes, He is alluded to Mirror in this verse:

"and we all, with unvailed face, the glory of the Lord beholding in a mirror, to the same image are being transformed, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." 2 cori 3-18

Jesus is called "mirror" because He mirrors His Father; everything the Father has, the Son has also.

John 16:
15 All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

In other words, all the Father's glory, divinity, wisdom, power, majesty, eternality, holiness, justice, mercy, etc... belong to Jesus. Jesus is God, because He possesses all things that the Father possesses as God.

Look at the Bible commentary from Matthew Henry for example. He says We behold Christ, as in the glass of his word; and as the reflection from a mirror causes the face to shine, the faces of Christians shine also.

In another word, Christ is a Mirror that reflects the glory of God, to others.

It is obvious what a Mirror is.

Who's Matthew Henry, what exactly did he say, and why should I take his word seriously?

I doubt it Jews agree with these claims. Do you think they do?

Of course they wouldn't admit to it, but what does that have to do with anything? The Jews have been known to disregard and even destroy their own Scriptures when they were inconvenient, like the book sent by Jeremiah to the king being destroyed after the king had only read a few pages. Abandoning a certain translation of the Scriptures that had become popular among Christians, accepting only one textual tradition and sliding a few books out of the final cut of their canon would have been easy.

It is only up to God to tell us, if the Book was written figurative or literal. Remember all Scriptures were inspired by God, not by men.

So the Apostles were mindless drones while writing the New Testament and have absolutely no idea what any of it means? Excuse me if I don't take this claim seriously.

The Apostles in the New Testament wrote down their experience of Christ and what they know to be true about what they had learned and experienced. Yes, the message is from God, but the Apostles conveyed it through their own personal experience and understanding. They certainly understood the Gospels they wrote and their own experiences of Christ.

The Apostles only taught according to the mission they were given.

Yes, and that mission was to teach everything that they had learned from Christ. They preached Christ risen physically from the dead. They taught that Jesus is divine, and truly God, while also being truly man.

The image of the Sun in the Mirror explains these. Note the difference between Manifestation and incarnation of God. Jesus was a Manifestation of God on earth.

You haven't proved the point.

No He wasn't teaching Jesus is God Himself. He was teaching the Perfections of God became manifested in Jesus, and same perfections can become manifested in others.

St. John definitely was teaching that Jesus is God Himself. Look at what he wrote. Look at what his personal student taught. You're making claims, but can't back them up from the history and literature that we possess.

 

[Jensen]

My understanding of your Jesus is one who is stuck in his "Humbled" State. You keep showing me passages of Jesus who is Humbled below even the angels. What I read when I read the bible is that the Eternal Word of God, who is God and With God, the one God who created all things, In the Form of the Son came to earth, not leaving heaven either, but The eternal Word emptied himself to become man and Die for us.(Jesus) The Father, always remained in heaven and after Jesus raised from the dead we are told by the Father, Paul, John, and others that Jesus not only was a man called the Son of God who died for us, but is also Creator of "ALL" things (not all [other} things), YHWH of the Jews who days will never end, God and with God, and yet the Father is also YHWH with the Spirit...

Again, don't tell me what I think, believe, you mostly are incorrect.

Actually, my Jesus is risen, ascended and in his glorified state sitting at the right hand of God. The God that he called my God and your God. He is the intercessor between God and man. etc. He is not in his humbled state.

I agree, since God to me is Father, Son, And HS, there is nothing outside of God that can save. You think that death as a man is "eternal death", yet the bible tells us that the 2nd death is "Eternal Death". So when Jesus died in the Flesh, he experienced death as a man, yet still existed in Spirit/Soul. He talks about this at Luke 16 and we read that Jesus preaches to the spirits in prison (1Peter 3:19)

Now you have changed the subject again, icebuddy....I was not discussing eternal death. And again you are wrong in what I believe. I do not think that the death of man is the eternal death. The Second death is the eternal death.

I see this as a problem. The Bible says YHWH alone created and that no one was with him... That is part of the key to the Trinity. How do you view verses that says God Alone Created and no one was with him?

I have already answered that, Buddy. God alone created. It is what the bible says. I have not said otherwise, so please don't confuse the issue. Stay on topic.

You are on the edge with that one... The bible says Nothing was Created apart from Jesus that was created. The Father points Jesus out as the one also spoken about at Psalms 102:25-28

God created, there are verses that state this. I'm on the edge because I believe this? Apart from Jesus isn't saying that Jesus created.

At least this clears up why you see Jesus as you do, but now you have to altar OT passage or explain them away that say God created Alone and NT passages that Say Jesus created everything. BTW, this is a huge gamble of thought because there is no passages that say Jesus was "In the Mind" of God. So as much as you might think us Trinitarians have gone off the Philosophy deep end, only to find you have beat us there... LOL

I do not think or have ever said that trinitarians have gone off the Philosophy deep end, nor have I ever thought that. Yet you say that I have and that I have beat you there? and then laugh about it?! At a friend? How un-Christ like is that, Ice buddy. I am truly disappointed in you. I thought better of you....this is why I was angry, Ice, you need to not be telling me what I think and believe because you are mostly wrong. Stay with what you believe...

( I edited this to explain that you are lucky, Tom, as when I posted this, it left out most of what I said in answer to the above. )

And, I never said that Jesus was in the mind of God. I said that God had Jesus in mind when He created. This does not mean how you make it to mean by misquoting me, and then arguing what I had not said. It seems that you desire to confuse what I'm saying to support your cause. It shows your weakness in your own beliefs, a form of insecurity, as I see it.

And, I have so issue with verses that say God alone created. The bible does say this.

Read hebrews 1:8-12. The Father says about Jesus and applies PS 102:25-27 directly to Jesus. If you do not see these things, why do you believe anything is said at all?

I have read PS 102 many times. And no I don't see it the same as you do.

Notice that he is called Eternal Life and nothing about this passage eludes to the Word before becoming flesh was created but always eternal...

In Love

And again, my discussion has not been about Jesus being created, or not created, but about the trinity. Again, you are changing the subject, confusing the conversation.


Jensen

 

[Jensen]

You need to get a Hebrew to English bible. (Septuagent) Look at the JW bible that is most Anti-Trinitarian Bible i know. The JW people say its the most accurate bible ever. Read what it says at Jer 23:5-6 I say this because they know when the name YHWH or Jehovah is being used...

You are letting English translation dictate your understanding because they didnt translate it word for word.

No I am not, I was showing you that not all bible translations read the same on this, and so what are you to believe? Which bible should you believe? The ones you like the reading in best? Or maybe consider that the others just might be more correct? Its up to you. That was my point.

 

[kjw47]

How accepted is this viewpoint in the Xian churches?

the majority of religions claiming Christianity are false religions--they reject Jesus' truths over their own made up dogmas.

 

[Jensen]

Let me ask you a question: Who is Israels King and Redeemer today? i ask this because its Jesus. They even put it on his Cross and there is no other name for them to call upon on earth. (Jesus) Again, you need a Greek to english OT bible (Septuagent)

Jesus is Creator too (John 1:3 and Col1:16)

I see that Jesus is God all over the bible, the whole thing points to him. I now know why you think allot like Slo. I always accused him of picking what ever bible agrees with his belief and not 1 bible in complete would agree with him. i bet you also have problem picking up one bible and agreeing with it 100%, in need of finding an alternate bible with an english translation that blurs what is being said in the Hebrew or the Greek. Most X-JW have come to learn the truth by reading the KIT of the NWT. I believe its called Kingdom Interlinear of the Greek Scriptures. I would also get a Septuagent (Hebrew to Greek with English word for word) in it you can see where the English language takes liberties in different translations that are just not there...

You have gone too far,Tom, even bringing up Slo here being that since neither of us has heard from him in about 3 years most likely this means that he has passed away. And then make accusations against him, like you did so much in the past. Slo did not use many translations for the purpose of picking and choosing verses that supported his cause, he was doing the opposite, to show you how many different translations read, so as to not claim that only his translation is the only one to go by; but to show agreement among may different translators on what the verses in question were saying. Whereas, I saw you constantly jumping to numerous other verses instead of staying with the ones that he asked you about to avoid considering what he was saying and what the verses were saying.
Which you still do.

Do you rely almost completely on one translation like as if it is the only one that is close to being correct? I bet you do. I don't. When using several translations, you are broadening you understanding because you are getting the translation of more translators then you would otherwise.

 

[Jensen]

The Main difference is that Catholics wear Crosses with Jesus still on it and Christians wear Crosses alone (No Jesus on it)

Quite right. The Catholics still are honoring Jesus' crucifixion having Jesus on their crosses, the Protestants that wear the cross, are honoring only the cross.
Which do you think is better.....

 

[Jensen]

Let me ask you the same question : When was Jesus born? Was he born twice or just once? Explain too

As I've already said....I use that verse to support my view on the trinity.
What do you not understand?

 

[Jensen]

Also this is for JENSEN too: Jensen, you have pulled out many bibles and seem to pick one that agrees with your belief. (Thats how it looks to me) Why can "I" do the same thing? For example, i pulled out my NIV and it reads exactly how i understand it

And I quoted from several different bibles..

No i don't, and I don't have one that I like best. I use many bibles because it gives a broader understanding of what the verses are saying, and may help for better understanding if one verse seems a little vague, and to show agreement among the translations of verses. And at times disagreement.

I do not pick one that most agrees with my belief.:tsk: But you sure like to pick the ones that most support your trinity, and in the past you have discredited many different translations as unworthy because you don't like how they read. Which is why I've sometimes wondered why you believe in it at all.

 

[Desert Snake]

the majority of religions claiming Christianity are false religions--they reject Jesus' truths over their own made up dogmas.

That's a broad statement but certainly possible..

 

[Jensen]

Jensen, i will always warn you when you say this. Fact is that only in English can you say this. If you where Greek (Language of the NT) you could not say this without being in error. Dont forget you cannot say this in Hebrew either (Isaiah 9:6)

Jesus is Mighty God!

Jesus is God!

If Jesus is fully and exactly expressing God to the Fullest, why then when you think of Jesus you think, "NOT GOD"? (john 20:28)

In Love

Wow, I guess the Hebrews, Israelites, the Jews and Judaism sure got it wrong too. how stupid of them..(sarcasm)

 

[Jensen]

Except, Jesus and His Father are one. Jesus prays that the Apostles may be one with each other, with Him and with His Father. There is a communion between the Persons of the Trinity, and it is this communion in which we are all called to share (2 Peter 1:4). We do not become God, but we do become "gods"--that is, we each realize the likeness of God within ourselves to which we are called to attain, and thus become like God, and "gods" by grace. We remain creatures, yet creatures which reflect God inasmuch as our progress in theosis enables us to.

With the Apostles, Jesus prays for unity and communion. With Him and His Father, Jesus speaks of His identity as God. Why else would the Jews try to stone Jesus for blasphemy? Indeed, the Jews themselves understood that Jesus was making Himself out to be God. Jesus did not deny this. If Jesus was stating that He had communion with the Father only, this would not have gotten Him stoned, and would have been no big deal to the Jews. But Jesus was saying more than this, and the Jews knew it.

Jesus identified himself as the Son of God. He did not make himself out to be God, the Jews accused him of doing so and he denied it.

 

[Jensen]

How accepted is this viewpoint in the Xian churches?

Pretty much not at all.

But it is what Jesus said and what the bible teaches.

 

[Jensen]

Of course the Jews know Who their God is--they know that He is YHWH, and that He is absolutely and perfectly One, and that there is none besides Him. But their rejection of Jesus as both Lord and Messiah led them to reject God's full revelation of Who He is. Their view of God being wholly and perfectly One and undivided is spot-on--we Orthodox confess the same thing during the Divine Liturgy. It's just that Jesus revealed more of Who God is--and by extension, Who Jesus is.


Jesus is Yahweh. The Father is Yahweh. The Holy Spirit is Yahweh. This is what it means that these three Persons are one God--each of them are "I AM THAT I AM."

Of course we believe Yahweh did everything. You act as if we believe Yahweh and Jesus are two different beings... They most certainly are not. The Father created through Jesus and in the Holy Spirit.

Yahweh is the God and Father of Jesus.:yes:
Jesus is the Son of God.
Not the same person.
Not the same being.
God is one.
God is not three but still one.
There is not a God the Son in the bible.:no:
There is not a trinity in the bible.
God is unitarian.
That's what the bible teaches.
That is what I believe.
Do you have to accept that?
No.
Neither do I have to accept what you believe.
Do I care that you believe in the trinity?
No.
Its only God that you have to answer to.:yes:

God bless...

 

[Shiranui117]

Jesus identified himself as the Son of God. He did not make himself out to be God, the Jews accused him of doing so and he denied it.

Where did He deny it?

Yahweh is the God and Father of Jesus.:yes:
Jesus is the Son of God.
Not the same person.
Not the same being.
God is one.
God is not three but still one.
There is not a God the Son in the bible.:no:
There is not a trinity in the bible.
God is unitarian.
That's what the bible teaches.
That is what I believe.
Do you have to accept that?
No.
Neither do I have to accept what you believe.
Do I care that you believe in the trinity?
No.

How do you feel knowing that you believe differently than the first Christians--i.e. those who were taught by the Apostles?

Its only God that you have to answer to.:yes:

God bless...

Agreed. May God grant you His blessings!

 

[Shiranui117]

Quite right. The Catholics still are honoring Jesus' crucifixion having Jesus on their crosses, the Protestants that wear the cross, are honoring only the cross.
Which do you think is better.....

Actually, Protestants wear the empty cross to glorify Jesus' Resurrection, that He has conquered suffering, sin and death.

 

[Katzpur]

Shira, would you mind going back and reading this post, and commenting for me. I would also be interested in your explanation of how the same "being" can be both corporeal and non-corporeal at the same time. Thanks.

 

[Shiranui117]

Shira, you're essentially just giving one possibility of what the words mean. They could mean that the Father is Jesus' God in a different way than He is our God, but the way it's worded doesn't necessarily imply that. I would be interested in hearing what you believe the difference actually is in how God is Jesus' God and our God.

Essentially, the difference is this: The Father is greater than the Son in that the Son is eternally begotten of the Father. And the Father is our Father because we have been adopted by Him as His children. So the Father is Jesus' God in that Jesus has His source in the Father, but the Father is our God in that we are created by Him. In both cases, the Father is God because He is the source of our existence. But God the Son, Who is One with the Father, united in essence and being, is eternally begotten of the Father, whereas we are mere creatures.

 

[Jensen]

Where did He deny it?

John 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do you stone me? 33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone you not; but for blasphemy; and because that you, being a man, make yourself God. 34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods? 35If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36Say you of him, whom the Father has sanctified, and sent into the world, You blaspheme; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38But if I do, though you believe not me, believe the works: that you may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. 39Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

I know that you will not agree..I guess I see something here differently then you do.

How do you feel knowing that you believe differently than the first Christians--i.e. those who were taught by the Apostles?

I don't agree that I believe differently than the first Christians. Jesus and the Apostles were Jewish, their beliefs were Judaism, and they did not believe in a triune God.

Agreed. May God grant you His blessings!

Thanks.

 

[Shiranui117]

John 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do you stone me? 33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone you not; but for blasphemy; and because that you, being a man, make yourself God. 34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods? 35If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36Say you of him, whom the Father has sanctified, and sent into the world, You blaspheme; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38But if I do, though you believe not me, believe the works: that you may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. 39Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

I know that you will not agree..I guess I see something here differently then you do.

I believe you do. The Jews all of course believe that they are children of God. But when Jesus claims to be the Son of God, they know that He means something different by it.

I don't agree that I believe differently than the first Christians. Jesus and the Apostles were Jewish, their beliefs were Judaism, and they did not believe in a triune God.

Have you ever read the writings of the first Christians? We still have a lot of them. And they do teach that Jesus is God in no uncertain terms.

 

[kjw47]

That's a broad statement but certainly possible..

3 proven major errors in trinity based translations

1) Stauros( greek) an upright pole or stake---not cross. 0 proof on earth of what Jesus died on except that word in the bible. ( one thing for sure--the cross is a pagan symbol( table of demons) Jesus would have 0 to do with it.
2) Proskenau( greek) 4 different meanings to English--1) worship to God--2) obeisance to a king, plus 2 others----For the Messiah, Gods appointed king( Daniel 7:13-15) obeisance is the correct usage--worship is not.
3)John 1:1--- And the word was with HO Theos, and the word was Theos

Not calling the word--THE GOD-- calling the word a god( small g) --which means--has godlike qualities--it is not calling him the God.

Many being mislead by these 3 errors.