The Trinity

[Jensen]

Quote:
In my post, that post, I was not on the topic of creation. Nor do I remember saying anything on creation in that post. Are you trying to change the subject?

It all goes together for a Trinitarian. If I read a passage that says God Alone Created and that no one helped him and no one was with him, then what are we to do when we find out Jesus Created and the Father applies passages of a Creating God directly to Jesus? Do we say Jesus was with God or that Jesus was God too? John 1:1-3 says exactly what we believe, that Jesus was God and with God. Not 1 thing created was created apart from Jesus. This is how we piece the mystery of God together. That is why we see Doctorines being developed after all the documents where read together as a whole. (Something that couldnt be done early on)

If one has to piece that mystery of God together, It is a very round about way to piecing together God for your beliefs, when....what is so hard to understand then God being Jesus God, which he has said more than once, and God being Jesus' Father, which he also has said, and God saying that Jesus is his Son?



Quote:
Actually, when I see Son of Man I see Son of Man, and when I see Son of God I see Son of God. Sons.....not sons being their father.

Let me ask you direct:
Do you agree that Jesus is the "Son of Man"?
Do you believe Jesus to be Man?

The bible says that he is the son of man.
The bible says that he is still a man. I think it is found in Timothy?

Quote:
I am not going to define my understanding of Son of God by the thought of Roman leaders, Very bad example Tom, being that the bible was not written by them.

Let me ask you another question: Read John 5:18 where John inspired by the Holy Spirit says Jesus was making himself equal to God by calling God his own Father. What was John saying? This was said by John, who did write the bible.

First of all, John did not write the bible. Only a part of it. Also John did not say that Jesus was making himself out to be God, but was telling us in his gospel that the Jews were accusing him of making himself out to be God, and that Jesus denied it. John was telling us what happened, under inspiration, John was not saying here that Jesus is God.

Quote:
What fits nicely together is believing what the bible says so many times, God the Father and Son of God. One Yahweh the other Jesus.

Where do you place Jesus before he humbled himself as a man?

If I where to read you Psalms 102:25-28 and then ask you if that is Yahweh what would you say?
What then If the Father tells you that this is Jesus too?

Now read Rev 22:12 to the end to a little child. After reading it to the little child, ask who the Alpha and Omega, First and Last, Beginning and End is....

I do not know what you are asking.

I have already answered that.

Its okay being that Jesus is the representation of God.


Did you know that the Psalm 102 in the bible Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition only goes to verse 22?

 

[Jensen]

If you read Titus 2:13 it says we await the glorious appearing of our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. The Question is: Who appearing?

Being that all letters originally were upper case, and that there were no commas, period, or capitals, etc, it could read this way also.


13Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ (no comma)


Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour, Jesus Christ ( comma after Savior)

Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ. (comma after God)

Notice how it could make the meaning different by where the comma is placed.
And so how do you desire to understand it, and which is correct for you.

 

[Jensen]

Originally Posted by Jensen
If I were to read it?1 I have read Psalms 102 and have stated already that I believe it to be God. So bring it up again as if I hadn't read it? See my post 2585 it says Adonai, in Psalms 102 the name Adonai that is used in this verse is only ever used for God the Father and never for Jesus.

Is 9:6 uses the same word "EL" of Jesus...?

I didn't mention the word EL. But the word Adonai which is only ever used of God and never Jesus.

I dont think this is off topic. Most people that dont believe Jesus as God have to place him somewhere. Where do you place him? Its clear you believe him to be Created, so one must ask, who do you believe Jesus to be? I would like to examine your belief as well. One thing i have learned is that its easy for anti-trinitarians to say "Jesus isnt God", but then where do you place him and why?

At God right hand, at this time.

Telling me what I believe again?

The Son of God, the messiah, Christ and Savior.

For example: i was listening to a radio show and one of the views was that the disciples didn't go around saying Jesus is God, so therefore he cannot be God. (Although we see Jesus being called God in the New testament books) At the same time, they also didnt go around saying Jesus was an angel, a created being, the Arch-angel, or any of that either. begging for the question: Why are the Trinitarian views being held under such Scrutiny that no other beliefs can stand under? In Love

Because it isn't taught in the bible, and because it makes God something and someone other than who he is.

 

[Jensen]

You clearly do not see my point. Every Jew knows that Ps 102:25-28 is YHWH or God
So if there is a passage that says Ps 102:25-28 was Jesus, kind of how some see Proverbs 8 being Jesus in the OT, what would you think then?

Humor me: If I could show you a passage that shows us that PS 102:25-28 was speaking of Jesus, wouldnt that make Jesus God or YHWH or Adoni of the Old Test?

No, it wouldn't. What it would show is that Jesus is God's representative.
Also Adoni is a name used for Jesus, man, judges, gods, but never used for God, the Father, the almighty God. Adonai is the name for God the Father and never for Jesus. Study the difference between the words Adoni and Adonai.

1 Cor 10:1-4 also points Jesus out as who the Jew all know to be YHWH of the Old testament. If I where to tell a Jew that their Rock was anyone but God they would say I was Crazy or that the one who followed them by cloud was someone other than YHWH, they would say Im nuts or in error... However the NT tells us exactly that Jesus is this one...

Those Jews whose religion is Judaism do not accept 1 Cor 10:1-4 as scripture being that it is in the NT and they do not accept that as inspired scripture, and so they would not accept those verses as proof that Jesus is YHWH, that followed them.

 

[Jensen]

A oneness person believe only 1 exists at a time. The Father became the Son. i believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit exist as YHWH all the time.

Oneness is the belief that God is a single being that represents himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

If only one exists at a time, then when he presented himself as Son on earth, he would not have been the father or the Holy Spirit in heaven at the same time.

God Jehovah has done everything. My definition of God Jehovah is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. (Do you follow that?)

Don't be condescending..... of course I know that you believe that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We been posting each other for years now.

Test#1 : If I told you God was defined as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Then told you that God Created all things. Who do you think Trinitarians credit creation to? Just Jesus or The Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit? Just so you know, I believe Psalms 102:25-28 is speaking of YHWH who happens to be Father, Son, and Holy Spirit... (Explained?)

But 102 at those verses do not say father son and holy spirit. You read that into the verses.

 

[Jensen]

I equate this to LOL, but Im ok with it...

The palm over the face means that the one reading finds what he has just read unbelievable.

Sometimes words dont need used to express thoughts. You are Obviously not the exact kind of friend I thought you were by this post and our PM... I thought it was funny and you took it way too serious. We have PM each other and Ill leave it at that...

In person, yes, online, no, because there is no body language, facial expressions, and tone of voice to help with putting across what is being said more accurately. And so unless it is followed with an explanation, it likely will be misunderstood.

I am not the exact kind of friend you thought I was because I reacted differently than you'd expected me to for what I felt was rude? You hurt me and somehow the blame is mine.

We just dont understand each other... To me, you just reworded the same thought and claim it to be different...

You reworded what I said, that is misquoted it, I corrected you by quoting what I had said, as it doesn't mean the same thing when written as you misquoted it.

I would like to ask everyone reading to read what we said and see their thoughts. im either crazy or i just dont get you...

Is this not the same thing? or at least very very close to the same thing?

No.

Its all part of the same thing... If Jesus is created, then he cannot be God.(NO Trinity) If Jesus was not created, then he is God (Trinity becomes more accurate)

He is not God created or not created.

 

[Jensen]

This can all easily be avoided by buying a Greek to English word for word translation. The best thing i think someone can do is pick one bible that is translated by more than just 1 person and read it form beginning to end. The worst thing I think someone can do is jump from one bible to another and picking out passages that only agree with a Preconceived belief... im not saying you have done this, but i dont understand your thoughts... however, this might help. What religion are you or what group of people do you study with? (This will help me, if I can find on the internet)


In Love

I do not know of any bible that is translated by one person.

If we posts verses to support what we are saying and that is picking and choosing? well, than we can't post verses at all to show what the bible does say, as it will be claimed that we are picking and choosing.....
You post verses to support what you believe....and its not picking and choosing?

My religion is Christianity.
I do not study or meet with a group, or church.

 

[Jensen]

Slo and I liked each other very much, we agreed to disagree and hopefully play Hockey on the new earth together. i dont understand why you think that you have the "Gone to Far" meter... i said nothing in my opinion that was even bad. Clearly we have had problems communicating.

I felt that you did, and when he is not here to explain, or defend himself. That is why I see it as wrong.

i feel that the "Gone to Far" meter is going to erupt, but I just stated a fact that I know. (A guy I know posted from many different bible transations and agreed only with the ones that agreed with WTBS doctrines) If its wrong or right, thats not up to me.

You didn't state a fact, it was only your opinion. You use only the ones that agree with and support your view......how is that different than anyone else that you say this about.

Apparently until now, it has been up to you....or why say this about him, oh, and others.

Again, only a Greek to English bible can truly show one whats written without any extra words that may confuse...

[QUOTE}Whereas, I saw you constantly jumping to numerous other verses instead of staying with the ones that he asked you about to avoid considering what he was saying and what the verses were saying.
Which you still do.[/quote]

Slo, was a JW and I know from studying with them that this is a method that they use and understand... Look at the JW thats here on this page, he/she will post many different passages at a time...

Actually, his/her posts are very short.
And you do this also.

My point is this: How do you know what bible verse to use when forming a doctrine? Also some bible translations may use a word like "Divine" then explain in their notes that its the only kind of Divine that God alone has. Yet today, the word Divine has been watered down to mean just about anything related to a god or goddesses...

Its always best to find out what did the Translator mean when he chose a certain word. (That would always be a good start)

Who has to form a doctrine? Why not just read the bible. If you read the bible and listen to what is says it forms a doctrine for you.

And it would be better to find out what is meant by the inspired writer, than a translator; who can say that the translator knows what is meant. Does he know better than the inspired writers? I don't think so.

 

[Jensen]

You didnt answer my Direct question: Was Jesus born once or twice in your belief?

I don't know what you are asking.
Are you asking about a birth from the womb of one's mother?
Or are you asking about being born again?
Or are you asking about Jesus being the "only begotten" and what this means?
Or none of the above?
Which is it?

 

[Jensen]

I wanted to show you that "EL" the term you said was never used of Jesus, is in fact used at Isaiah 9:6. So to think otherwise is not so wise...

As far as the Jews getting it wrong... That probably why they didnt believe Jesus was their savior. They where looking for a "Mighty God" and not some poor carpenter that didnt zap the Romans into dust...

I did not say that El is never used of Jesus.

I said that Adonai is never used for Jesus.

Adonai is only used for God the Father.

Research it.

Sorry for posting so many messages at this time, but wanted to catch up before leaving the forum for a few days.
Icebuddy, please keep your replies short? Less chance of misunderstanding and easier to answer.

 

[james2ko]

I did not say that El is never used of Jesus.

I said that Adonai is never used for Jesus.

Adonai is only used for God the Father.

Research it.

Sorry for posting so many messages at this time, but wanted to catch up before leaving the forum for a few days.
Icebuddy, please keep your replies short? Less chance of misunderstanding and easier to answer.

Reference?

 

[Jensen]

I did say Adonai and not El.

But I will look into it as I could be remembering this wrong, that is if the word is used for God, Jesus or both, and maybe other mighty ones too.
Thanks for asking for references,as it will send me to be looking into the uses of the name.

Jensen

 

[icebuddy]

I think that 'Lord' is clearly an indication of 'God'. That term was used for Deities, add that Titus verse and it is clearly saying that 'Jesus' is God.
Even Yeshua is a bit of a title, as are the terms used throughout the Bible for Deities.

But, back to the trinity, I think you can have three separate Deity and still maintain monotheism, this idea of a "problem" with that, is, to me of foreign import....It is non=theistic logical conclusion stemming from over=materialism/

I agree, The term "Lord" has been watered down over the years.
I also Agree that our God has expressed himself in 3 Deities

The problem I see with anti-trinity people, are that they have already defined the term "GOD" (Put God in a limited Box) before they read scripture.

 

[icebuddy]

Tom,
I won't be answering your posts until next week, since the weekend is here.:clap2:

Just so you know that I am not ignoring your messages..want some time to think also.

Jensen

I take my time as well, just dont get mad at me.... I have been listening to a debate between a couple of people like us, and what I have come to the understanding is this:

Who was Jesus before he became a man. This is what Drives ones thinking

 

[icebuddy]

I believe that belief is insupportable because there is no way for the body of Jesus to exist without a creation. However God is in Jesus and God is not a creation.

Where do you place Jesus before his birth on earth? I place Jesus as one with the Father and HS as YHWH of the Old Testament. 1John 1:1-4 calls him the Eternal word

 

[icebuddy]

I find it amazing you say this my friend : "There will not be any question"...
For more than a thousand years Jews were waiting for Messiah who was prophesied in their own Holy Book. When Jesus came, they crucified Him. Now you think these two prophets when they come they are recognized and there would be no question

The Jews Knew about it, they rejected the Stone as the Bible says would happen. However, i have heard nothing of what you teach. Yes, The 2 prophets will not happen in secret. There is no record of them changing rivers into blood, fire out of their mouth, or being dead in the streets of where Jesus died for 3 days with "Every Nation" looking on with a refusal of burial. Then they will be brought back to life and their enemies will see them go into heaven. Followed by a great earthquake that will kill 7000 people and part of the city. (No Record) However, there is a record of Jesus. One can believe or not believe...

Now you heard it. It doesn't matter you didn't hear it before. So, if someone never heard of Jesus before, and all the sudden today he hears about Him, he should say "I never heard of Him before, therefore I don't give them merit"? It is up to you...but I think it will be your loss.

So you believe all that happened?

 

[icebuddy]

What he means is, we know the two witnesses haven't come yet, because nothing prophecied about them in the Book of Revelation has come to pass.

Thats exactly what I mean... Agreed

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Jews Knew about it, they rejected the Stone as the Bible says would happen. However, i have heard nothing of what you teach. Yes, The 2 prophets will not happen in secret. There is no record of them changing rivers into blood, fire out of their mouth, or being dead in the streets of where Jesus died for 3 days with "Every Nation" looking on with a refusal of burial. Then they will be brought back to life and their enemies will see them go into heaven. Followed by a great earthquake that will kill 7000 people and part of the city. (No Record) However, there is a record of Jesus. One can believe or not believe...



So you believe all that happened?

Yes, it did happen. I already gave you a link how it did happen.

 

[icebuddy]

All of it came to pass! I think I have already put a link explaining it.

Send me this link...

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Send me this link...

Here you have:

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 45-61