Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Agree, it's obvious. Whether Jesus is God or not, He's different from the Father,
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The Trinity
- Thread starter Atruthseeker
- Start date
Agree, it's obvious. Whether Jesus is God or not, He's different from the Father,
icebuddy
Does the devil lift Jesus up?
So even if I said PS 102:25-27 was written about Jesus you would not see him as the one who you originally believed it to be written about? When did Jesus become Gods representative?
Adoni and Adonai are Hebrew words. The NT is Greek and thats where we read about Jesus. Im not sure what you mean by these Hebrew words being used in a Greek NEW Testament...? Give an example please
Most all 1st Christians where Jews. They knew what Paul meant. im talking about the Jewish converts.
icebuddy
Does the devil lift Jesus up?
Thats probably our problem. Thats basically the Trinity.(Above) Oneness Believe that the Single God is only one at a time. They believe the father is Jesus and Is the Holy Spirit. Same guy changing Rolls.
Trinitarians believe all 3 Exist as separate, yet as the single being that is God. We define the Single God (one God) expressing himself in 3 Persons, yet remaining One God.
Thats exactly why Im not a oneness believer. However, they have some good points that are clearly close to us Trinitarians... What you posted above is what Oneness people think, yet they have Explanation s of their own...
You read into my posts something thats not there..? I may be a confident person, but Im no better than yourself. Clearly you are off on my belief somewhere... i think you confuse Oneness with Trinitarians... The JW people do this all the time. ( and yes, I know you are not JW, just expressing)
The Father tells us that Ps 102:25-27 was written also of Jesus. The Father says to Jesus (Heb 1:10-12) and quotes Ps 102:25-27 a passage of God. So i clearly see Jesus as YHWH with the Father and HS in the Old Testament with the New Testament pointing us directly to this.
That is why we read passages like 1 Cor 10:1-4 that tell the Jews that the very one that they called YHWH or ADONAI is also Christ.
In Love
icebuddy
Does the devil lift Jesus up?
its all the same to me... Unbelievable or LOL ... All Gestures expressing how crazy we see things. As i said before, Im ok with it.
I write emails all the time that people at work read "Expressions" into what Im trying to say. Im a direct person with less fluffy words. many times people see directness as what you called condescending.
Your easily hurt on a page thats for debating. (My opinion) Ive even tried to re-express myself and say "My understanding of Your belief" and you still get upset at me...? Of Course i dont know your belief 100% or i wouldnt be here asking you questions. Therefore, Its my understanding of your belief that can be wrong. But your belief is very hard to understand when there is no others that believe exactly as you do. (Web sites, books, ext...)
Im not the press, im just trying to understand the differences between
On Gods Mind
in Gods Mind
Or whatever we said to each other. im looking for answers, im not trying to make you look bad to others. Even though I think what I said was exactly the same thing. Ask others and see what they say...
Explain whats different so i can understand your thought Process
We are speaking of Jesus. If I understand you correctly, you dont believe he(Jesus) was Created or God Created... So if Jesus is not God nor Created please explain what you believe plainly?
in Love
Jensen
Active Member
What I'd like to see is you admitting that that particular verse cannot be used to support the trinity being that it changes meaning depending on where the translators put the comma. For example...
13Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ (no comma)
With no comma it could be thought to be said that there are two, the first one the great God, and the second Jesus, two separate individuals, the way it reads.
Or it could be thought to be saying that God and Jesus are same individual, because of no comma to help make the meaning more clear. And....
Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour, Jesus Christ ( comma after Savior)
This one also could be thought to say that God is the savior by the name of Jesus Christ, or it could be understood to be two separate individuals, because of where the comma is placed. Or...
Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ. (comma after God)
And this last one could only be understood to say that the great God and our Savior Jesus are not the same individual, but only separate beings. That the great God is God only, and the Savior is Jesus only. No confusion there.
So which are we to believe? Being that the meaning, as I see it is, changes depending on how it is translated means that we can't use that verse to support a doctrine such as the trinity.
Jensen
Jensen
Active Member
PS 102 is about Yahweh God. When in the NT it is used for Jesus it is because Jesus is God's representative.
I didn't say those words were used in the NT.
In your message 2700 you said...
Humor me: If I could show you a passage that shows us that PS 102:25-28 was speaking of Jesus, wouldnt that make Jesus God or YHWH or Adoni of the Old Test?
This is why I posted concerning the use of Adoni and Adonai, and their difference in usage, because you used the word Adoni to support your view that Jesus is God, YHWH of the OT; when Adoni is never used to refer to God.
Adoni is a name used for men, judges, gods, and Jesus, but not for God. And so the use of Adoni does not support that he is God.
Yes, they did know what Paul meant. But do we 2000 years later? That is what needs to be considered, do we now know for sure what Paul meant? or could most of us be wrong....
The first Christians did not believe in a trinity, and neither did Christ, being that he believed himself to be the Son of God.
One thing we likely see differently is the name Yahweh, YHWH, Jehovah. I believe that these names are names for God the Father. And so to use these names for Jesus to claim that Jesus is God, means that you are claiming Jesus is the Father.
Jensen
Jensen
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jensen
Oneness is the belief that God is a single being that represents himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Sorry, my mistake....I should have used the word "person" and not "being" in what I posted above. Oneness is the belief that God is a single person that represents himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
I have thought for some time that you confused the trinity with Oneness. This is why in the past I've said that your belief is more Oneness than Trinitarianism, because what you used to argue for seemed more Oneness than trinitarian. I think you are clearer on it now though.
I think that I've given my view on this a couple times already, so will not again. I think you know how I see it. No need to go into it again.
And the Jews do not accept it as they do not believe in scripture from the NT, which is what 1 Cor 10 is, NT scripture. The Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Christ least of all God with God of the OT.
Originally Posted by Jensen
Oneness is the belief that God is a single being that represents himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Sorry, my mistake....I should have used the word "person" and not "being" in what I posted above. Oneness is the belief that God is a single person that represents himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
I have thought for some time that you confused the trinity with Oneness. This is why in the past I've said that your belief is more Oneness than Trinitarianism, because what you used to argue for seemed more Oneness than trinitarian. I think you are clearer on it now though.
I think that I've given my view on this a couple times already, so will not again. I think you know how I see it. No need to go into it again.
And the Jews do not accept it as they do not believe in scripture from the NT, which is what 1 Cor 10 is, NT scripture. The Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Christ least of all God with God of the OT.
Jensen
Active Member
Actually, no, its just been building up for a long time....which is why sometimes I just leave for an extended length of time, this time we were just in too deep in our discussion for me to just leave are awhile.
There are no two people in the world that believe exactly the same.
I think I already explained how it is different in my view, so see no point in going into that again...
What I said was...."He is not God created or not created".... it was only meant to emphasize that whether one believes he is eternal and God, or that he was created, had a beginning.... he is still not God.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe there are those who do but there are also those who preach what they believe. I believe the Bible tells the truth and someday a JW might even believe it.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe in what Jesus says just not what you say he says.
Quote: Jesus clearly teaches--John 17:1-6--The one who sent him( Father) is the only true God--verse 6 = YHWH(Jehovah)
Paul teaches the same--only the Father is God-1 Corinthians 8:6
Jesus teaches he has a God like we do-his Father-John 20:17, rev 3:12 end Quote
I believe God sends Himself.
I believe Paul says there is one and there is. I cor. 8:6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.
I believe Jesus teaches that He is one with the Father and no doubt the God of Jehovah is Jehovah and none other.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe of course there is a difference. The Father doesn't have a boody and Jesus does. However the Spirit is the same.
Jensen
Active Member
All who believe in the bible believe that it tells the truth, including JW...it is that all do not always understand all of the truth that is in the bible. This would mean everyone some of the time, not just JW.
Jensen
Active Member
Here is some verses that say Jesus has a God and Father. You don't need to believe me, believe what the bible says...
1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (English-NIV)
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many gods and many lords),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
John 17:3 (English-NIV)
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
1 Corinthians 3:22-23 (English-NIV)
22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas {That is, Peter} or the world or life or death or the present or the future all are yours,
23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God
Ephesians 4:4-6 (English-NIV)
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Romans 15:6 (English-NIV)
so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:3 (English-NIV)
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,
2 Corinthians 11:31 (English-NIV)
The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.
Ephesians 1:3 (English-NIV)
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
Colossians 1:3 (English-NIV)
We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,
1 Peter 1:3 (English-NIV)
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Ephesians 1:17 (English-NIV)
I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.
I don't think these verses need explanations....it is obvious to me that Jesus has a God, and so is not that God.
What do you mean by "the God of Jehovah is Jehovah ?"
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
So, what I infer is that there is "Jesus the G-d", and "Jesus the man". I don't really think it is some 'mix' of deity. There are too many references to Jesus AS G-d to infer that.
Just my opinion.
I.e.
Jesus the G-d
Jesus the man
Jesus the man is a reflection of Jesus the G-d.
Last edited:
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
I agree. But I think that Jesus is also in G-d form, the 'man' is a creation, human.
We can "know the Father" through Jesus, thusly.
So, it is not contradictory to say Jesus is both man and G-d, imo. It is just that they are separate beings.
Ken Brown
Well-Known Member
Shalom Jensen, good post. To clarify, Yeshua was "Jehovah" (Yahweh) and He emptied Himself to become a man. His decision to give up what He was allowed for Him to become MANY, just as a seed is only one, until it is planted in the earth, to become many. The Father is ALL of the Elohim united as ONE, with Yeshua as the supreme One within that unity. Yeshua is the Head of this unity, but the unity as a whole is GREATER than Him alone. Hope this helps. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
icebuddy
Does the devil lift Jesus up?
Usually its a translation named after the one man who translated it...
What I see going on is that many "Trinitarians" will be happy sticking to one bible and reading it from beginning to end and we will all believe that one would conclude that Jesus is YHWH or Jehovah with the Father in the OT and not separate from God Almighty, but somehow the same. And when we come to passages that seem to have difficulties, we must find out what the translator meant. For example: A Translator might of translated John 1:1 as the WORD WAS DEITY. When reading what the translator meant was that He believes only God is True Deity and therefore the word was God. Yet in todays world many have diluted words to mean an array of things. Deity to a JW means angle like... Therefore they would like this translation and although its true translator did not translate it to mean angle like or even god like, he would disagree with the JW usage of it...
Anyways, if we can all find verses that agree with our belief, then haven't we done the backwards move? What I would ask: is there any one bible alone that agrees with ones beliefs from beginning to end plainly? For example, when Thomas said to Jesus plainly, "My Lord and My God". This is enough plain evidence that Thomas saw Jesus for more than a man or an angel. Many JW use to tell me Thomas was surprised and blurted out "Oh My God" its Jesus my Lord...
so if I was in need of help with the bible, what church would you send me to? Lets say I believed you to be right and I was so wrong, where could I go? These are things one needs to think about...
In Love
icebuddy
Does the devil lift Jesus up?
We believe that reading the bible concludes many things. Doctrines are formed based upon the bible. The reason they where formed was to keep bad ideas from emerging. Gnosticism was one of them...
Not sure what you meant here? The Translators are translating from the inspired writings? unless one knows Hebrew and Greek and the slang of the day, we are dependent upon the translators...
I've become more active in my Church, and as a result, I got another chance to try and discuss the trinity with others. The fact is that I don't think anyone really understands it. I like the term "Three essences" better than "three persons", for the reason is because the latter makes me think of polytheism.
I've been questioning it for 30 years and I still haven't found an answer that satisfies me.
I've been questioning it for 30 years and I still haven't found an answer that satisfies me.
icebuddy
Does the devil lift Jesus up?
I believe allot of passages relating to Jesus are only possible because of his lowering himself to become a man. Firstborn to Mary and God the Father. I believe Jesus was only Born once, 2014 some years ago. Before this, Jesus was God and with God as the Eternal Word. Now that you have my answer, would that help with what I was looking for?
In Love