The Trinity

[Muffled]

No, I think one entity as well, but the man form of Jesus is different as man, because of the human part, hence the praying to 'the Father'.

Yes, agreed. The purpose was to walk among men, therefore that necessity imo.

Jesus the man, perhaps in physicality, as the Son of God, however, we clearly have Deity, we agree here I believe, simply using different description.
This is sort of tricky, because through the Spirit Jesus is Divine as well, so imo only the 'man part' of Jesus is different.


Yes, exactly my interpretation, again the necessity because of human nature when among men.


Agreed. God through the Spirit, that's why Jesus is referred to as Deity even in man form, imo.


Yes, one form, different manifestations through the Son, and the Spirit.
Adding to this, throughout the entire Bible, we have the plurality worshipped, Elohim, and the singular worshipped as well, so there appears to never have been a 'contradiction in understanding that the plural of God and the singular is essentially the same worship, as we know it is monotheistic worship.

I believe we understand each other and the word quite well.

I believe the JW's actually got this one right saying that the plural ending can refer to something that does not fit a singular concept like a lake. The fact that God is everywhere makes Him seem plural because He shows up in so many places at the ssame time, yet he is singular.

 

[Muffled]

The traditional churches believe in the holy Trinity, as do I. In Matthew 16:15–16, Peter calls Jesus the Son of God, and he accepted the title.

In Matthew 11:27 Jesus proclaims: "All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal"

Jesus is called the "Son of God" by followers 35 times in the NT.
Jesus refers to himself as the "Son of God' 7 times in the NT.
Jesus is called by demons the "Son of God" 7 times in the NT.

This shows that Jesus is a separate entity from his father (God), and not a separate manifestation.

A physical entity is a separate entity from God who is Spirit but a physical body can't be God. The Spirit of God in that physical body is the one Spirit.

The Father manifests Himself through His Spirit entering the minds of prophets but not residing there and manifests himself in Jesus as the resident Spirit. I would call that two distinct manifestations.

I am a person of logic and I see none given so I don't see how it shows anything.

 

[Jensen]

I believe in the word of God but evidently you do not and are not willing to be shown where you are in error.

What I see is that you believe in your interpretation of those verses instead of taking them for what they so clearly say. And that you see no error in that.

Why do you think I posted only the verses themselves, highlighting the parts that support what I know it is saying. Some people think they know so much better what the verse is saying than what the verse actually says. And give it their own meaning and seem to be unwilling to be shown where they are in error even when given only the verses in question.


1 Corinthians 8:6 (English-NIV)


6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.


Ephesians 4:6 (English-NIV)

6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Romans 15:6 (English-NIV)
so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Desert Snake]

The Father manifests Himself through His Spirit entering the minds of prophets but not residing there and manifests himself in Jesus as the resident Spirit. I would call that two distinct manifestations.

Definitely, or more or less, as with prophets the information is obtained via various methodology.

 

[Desert Snake]

What I see is that you believe in your interpretation of those verses instead of taking them for what they so clearly say. And that you see no error in that.

Why do you think I posted only the verses themselves, highlighting the parts that support what I know it is saying. Some people think they know so much better what the verse is saying than what the verse actually says. And give it their own meaning and seem to be unwilling to be shown where they are in error even when given only the verses in question.


1 Corinthians 8:6 (English-NIV)


6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.


Ephesians 4:6 (English-NIV)

6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Romans 15:6 (English-NIV)
so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And yet you have not refuted the obvious reference to pluralistic worship with the Title 'Elohim'. You can try to semantisize these Titles all you want, but plurality of single Deity is all over the Scripture, OT & NT. The reality is that in order to achieve your flavor of theistic worship, we have to ignore various parts of Scripture. It's monotheism with different manifestations of the Godhead.

 

[Jensen]

And I feel that large amounts of Scripture is being ignored by those that support the Trinity doctrine.

Like the Hebrews, Israelites, and Jews who had to ignore various parts of the OT to believe in their single Deity? without a correction from God on their misunderstanding? The title Elohim was indeed used in the OT, yet they have never believed in a trinity Godhead, now why would that be, unless it is because they know that God is a single individual. Yet, later Christians come along and say differently, that the God of the Hebrews is actually three in One. Do they really know better than the Jews who had been God "Chosen?" I think not.

I don't think God changed somewhere along the way, but that he is still one deity, one being, one person, one individual, just as the Jews have always believed. And that is good enough for me since it was for them. We will just have to agree to disagree...

 

[kjw47]

And yet you have not refuted the obvious reference to pluralistic worship with the Title 'Elohim'. You can try to semantisize these Titles all you want, but plurality of single Deity is all over the Scripture, OT & NT. The reality is that in order to achieve your flavor of theistic worship, we have to ignore various parts of Scripture. It's monotheism with different manifestations of the Godhead.

When one looks at facts--there is 0 dispute.

Moses wrote the word elohim---- elohim does not always mean gods in its usage--- it carries other meanings as well---like the one Moses used it for--majesty( plural compared to a mortal kings majesty)

Moses and every single Israelite after him--served or serves---YHWH(Jehovah) a single being mono God.
The God taught to Jesus his first 30 years attending synagogues. And Jesus had such zeal for his God and Father--he would have refuted that teaching to the core if it weren't truth.
Yhwh( Jehovah) The name Jesus promised to keep making known-John 17:6,26---- and he has accomplished this through his real teachers.
And this important fact Jesus taught----John 4:22-24------ The hour is now for true worshippers to worship the Father( Jehovah) for its the Father who is searching for such, to worship him in spirit and truth.

 

[Muffled]

What I see is that you believe in your interpretation of those verses instead of taking them for what they so clearly say. And that you see no error in that.

Why do you think I posted only the verses themselves, highlighting the parts that support what I know it is saying. Some people think they know so much better what the verse is saying than what the verse actually says. And give it their own meaning and seem to be unwilling to be shown where they are in error even when given only the verses in question.


1 Corinthians 8:6 (English-NIV)


6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.


Ephesians 4:6 (English-NIV)

6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Romans 15:6 (English-NIV)
so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

An example of taking texts by themselves:

Luke 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. Lu 10:37 And he said, He that showed mercy on him. And Jesus said unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

I believe in logically understnding verses in context. Saying something is clear from the scripture is basicly an interpretation since it is not a tautology that anything is clear from scripture without having an understanding of scripture.

 

[blueman]

If one is to use the full intent of mathematical notation (including set theory) the correct notation would be 1 (is less than or equal to) 1+1+1 (which is less than or equal to 3).

If however, we use the full implications of mathematical theory as a projection of the G-dhead then we must deal with one very important notion form the ancient Hebrew description of G-d. That is the word “ehad” to describe the numerical “oneness” of G-d. If we assume the numerical singularity of “ehad” then the “oneness” of G-d becomes by definition the least common dominator of the whole. This would mean that G-d cannot be divided or differentiated into any “sub” persons or distinctions – such as “Father” “Son” and “Holy Ghost”.

If in contrast, “ehad” is plural unity, as in marriage when a man and a woman become “one flesh” then “ehad” does not assume the number theory definition of the “whole” or “counting” numbers and cannot be use as scriptural proof that G-d is singular. The point here is that according to all possible variant readings of “ehad” the “Biblical” interpretation of “one G-d” is contradicted in the doctrine of the Trinity.

Zadok

The challenge is you're trying to define God based on human understanding. The Scriptures clearly point to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That does not diminish or take away from the oneness of God, it more reveals the essence and fullness of God, which is beyond our full understanding in our finite minds. We have to be relegated to the fact that there are mysteries that we may not fully understand about God, but to have an appreciation and trust (faith) for what He has revealed to us.

 

[Jensen]

[/color]

An example of taking texts by themselves:

Luke 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. Lu 10:37 And he said, He that showed mercy on him. And Jesus said unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

I believe in logically understnding verses in context. Saying something is clear from the scripture is basicly an interpretation since it is not a tautology that anything is clear from scripture without having an understanding of scripture.

Okay lets take it in context, if you like.....

1 Corinthians 8 American Standard Version (ASV)

8 Now concerning things sacrificed to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but love edifieth.
2 If any man thinketh that he knoweth anything, he knoweth not yet as he ought to know;
3 but if any man loveth God, the same is known by him.
4 Concerning therefore the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that no idol is anything in the world, and that there is no God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth; as there are gods many, and lords many;
6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.
7 Howbeit there is not in all men that knowledge: but some, being used until now to the idol, eat as of a thing sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
8 But food will not commend us to God: neither, if we eat not, are we the worse; nor, if we eat, are we the better.
9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to the weak.
10 For if a man see thee who hast knowledge sitting at meat in an idol's temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be emboldened to eat things sacrificed to idols?
11 For through thy knowledge he that is weak perisheth, the brother for whose sake Christ died.
12 And thus, sinning against the brethren, and wounding their conscience when it is weak, ye sin against Christ.
13 Wherefore, if meat causeth my brother to stumble, I will eat no flesh for evermore, that I cause not my brother to stumble.

 

[Jensen]

[/color]

An example of taking texts by themselves:

Luke 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. Lu 10:37 And he said, He that showed mercy on him. And Jesus said unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

I believe in logically understnding verses in context. Saying something is clear from the scripture is basicly an interpretation since it is not a tautology that anything is clear from scripture without having an understanding of scripture.

In context....would have given the whole chapter but it is a bit long. Ephesians 4 American Standard Version (ASV)

4 I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beseech you to walk worthily of the calling wherewith ye were called,
2 with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 giving diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all.
7 But unto each one of us was the grace given according to the measure of the gift of Christ.


Also the other verse I used....in context. When looking closely, this is not about Jesus being God, being that it says that God, Jesus, and believers are all one.

John 17 American Standard Version (ASV) 17 These things spake Jesus; and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that the son may glorify thee:
2 even as thou gavest him authority over all flesh, that to all whom thou hast given him, he should give eternal life.
3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.
4 I glorified thee on the earth, having accomplished the work which thou hast given me to do.
5 And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I manifested thy name unto the men whom thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them to me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they know that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are from thee:
8 for the words which thou gavest me I have given unto them; and they received them, and knew of a truth that I came forth from thee, and they believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me; for they are thine:
10 and all things that are mine are thine, and thine are mine: and I am glorified in them.
11 And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are.
12 While I was with them, I kept them in thy name which thou hast given me: and I guarded them, and not one of them perished, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 But now I come to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy made full in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one.
16 They are not of the world even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them in the truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou didst send me into the world, even so sent I them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
20 Neither for these only do I pray, but for them also that believe on me through their word;
21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thou didst send me.
22 And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we are one;
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one; that the world may know that thou didst send me, and lovedst them, even as thou lovedst me.
24 Father, I desire that they also whom thou hast given me be with me where I am, that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world knew thee not, but I knew thee; and these knew that thou didst send me;
26 and I made known unto them thy name, and will make it known; that the love wherewith thou lovedst me may be in them, and I in them.

 

[Sonofason]

The one idea of the trinitiy that is comical is the holy spirit. What the heck is that?

A gopher for the son and the father?

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." (Mathew 12:31-32)

Nice job.

 

[AHJE]

If one is to use the full intent of mathematical notation (including set theory) the correct notation would be 1 (is less than or equal to) 1+1+1 (which is less than or equal to 3).

If however, we use the full implications of mathematical theory as a projection of the G-dhead then we must deal with one very important notion form the ancient Hebrew description of G-d. That is the word “ehad” to describe the numerical “oneness” of G-d. If we assume the numerical singularity of “ehad” then the “oneness” of G-d becomes by definition the least common dominator of the whole. This would mean that G-d cannot be divided or differentiated into any “sub” persons or distinctions – such as “Father” “Son” and “Holy Ghost”.

If in contrast, “ehad” is plural unity, as in marriage when a man and a woman become “one flesh” then “ehad” does not assume the number theory definition of the “whole” or “counting” numbers and cannot be use as scriptural proof that G-d is singular. The point here is that according to all possible variant readings of “ehad” the “Biblical” interpretation of “one G-d” is contradicted in the doctrine of the Trinity.

Zadok

Before delving into a discussion about the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity one must first try to deal with the fact that we finite beings have no idea what it is like to BE an Eternal/Infinite Being.

Next we need to contemplate the real distinction between Perfect Life, Truth, and Love.

Finally we must accept the Revelation of Jesus Christ about God the Father and how He referred to the Holy Spirit in the Personal Pronoun.

 

[Muffled]

Okay lets take it in context, if you like.....

1 Corinthians 8 American Standard Version (ASV)

8 Now concerning things sacrificed to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but love edifieth.
2 If any man thinketh that he knoweth anything, he knoweth not yet as he ought to know;
3 but if any man loveth God, the same is known by him.
4 Concerning therefore the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that no idol is anything in the world, and that there is no God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth; as there are gods many, and lords many;
6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.
7 Howbeit there is not in all men that knowledge: but some, being used until now to the idol, eat as of a thing sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
8 But food will not commend us to God: neither, if we eat not, are we the worse; nor, if we eat, are we the better.
9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to the weak.
10 For if a man see thee who hast knowledge sitting at meat in an idol's temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be emboldened to eat things sacrificed to idols?
11 For through thy knowledge he that is weak perisheth, the brother for whose sake Christ died.
12 And thus, sinning against the brethren, and wounding their conscience when it is weak, ye sin against Christ.
13 Wherefore, if meat causeth my brother to stumble, I will eat no flesh for evermore, that I cause not my brother to stumble.

Exactly One God: The Father and Jesus Christ. The context is a contrast of God with idols. Jesus is not named with the idols, He is named with God. If Jesus were just a man he would be an idol and named with them.

 

[Muffled]

In context....would have given the whole chapter but it is a bit long. Ephesians 4 American Standard Version (ASV)

4 I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beseech you to walk worthily of the calling wherewith ye were called,
2 with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 giving diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all.
7 But unto each one of us was the grace given according to the measure of the gift of Christ.


Also the other verse I used....in context. When looking closely, this is not about Jesus being God, being that it says that God, Jesus, and believers are all one.

John 17 American Standard Version (ASV) 17 These things spake Jesus; and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that the son may glorify thee:
2 even as thou gavest him authority over all flesh, that to all whom thou hast given him, he should give eternal life.
3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.
4 I glorified thee on the earth, having accomplished the work which thou hast given me to do.
5 And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I manifested thy name unto the men whom thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them to me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they know that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are from thee:
8 for the words which thou gavest me I have given unto them; and they received them, and knew of a truth that I came forth from thee, and they believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me; for they are thine:
10 and all things that are mine are thine, and thine are mine: and I am glorified in them.
11 And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are.
12 While I was with them, I kept them in thy name which thou hast given me: and I guarded them, and not one of them perished, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 But now I come to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy made full in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one.
16 They are not of the world even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them in the truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou didst send me into the world, even so sent I them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
20 Neither for these only do I pray, but for them also that believe on me through their word;
21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thou didst send me.
22 And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we are one;
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one; that the world may know that thou didst send me, and lovedst them, even as thou lovedst me.
24 Father, I desire that they also whom thou hast given me be with me where I am, that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world knew thee not, but I knew thee; and these knew that thou didst send me;
26 and I made known unto them thy name, and will make it known; that the love wherewith thou lovedst me may be in them, and I in them.

I believe since these versess are clear in context that Jesus is God in the flesh.

I beleive you need to read your text again because it does not say that.

 

[Jensen]

Exactly One God: The Father and Jesus Christ. The context is a contrast of God with idols. Jesus is not named with the idols, He is named with God. If Jesus were just a man he would be an idol and named with them.

I'm not saying that Jesus is an idol, nor am I saying that he is just a man.
I haven't continued with this discussion as I do not have the heart to continue. We here already know where each of us stand on this topic, I think. But thanks for the reply just the same.

 

[Jensen]

I believe since these versess are clear in context that Jesus is God in the flesh.

I beleive you need to read your text again because it does not say that.

Well, I have read it again, and to me it does say that, so we are at an impasse.
Thanks again for your reply. :sad:

 

[kjw47]

I believe since these versess are clear in context that Jesus is God in the flesh.

I beleive you need to read your text again because it does not say that.

Not a single passage says---Jesus is God. I agree with Muffled on this matter. so do all the nt writers.

 

[Katzpur]

Not a single passage says---Jesus is God. I agree with Muffled on this matter. so do all the nt writers.

Jesus is not God the Father. On the other hand, the Father once specifically addressed Him as "God."

Hebrews 1:7-8 states, "And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

Of course, as with any other passage of scripture, one could argue that what it says isn't what it meant to say. Unless you're going to do that, though, you'd have to acknowledge that Jesus Christ can also legitimately be referred to as "God" -- even though He is subordinate to His Father.

 

[Jensen]

Not a single passage says---Jesus is God. I agree with Muffled on this matter. so do all the nt writers.

I said this....."When looking closely, this is not about Jesus being God, being that it says that God, Jesus, and believers are all one."

And that was what Muffled was replying to when he answered with this...."I beleive you need to read your text again because it does not say that."...... Because he believes that it does.....which is why he wrote this in response...... "I believe since these versess are clear in context that Jesus is God in the flesh."

He does believe that Jesus is God in the flesh.....I do not.
Muffled correct me if I am wrong.