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The Trinity

Jensen

Active Member
Hi Susan, I see what you mean. If Jesus is equal to God and God gives him a superior position then Jesus would become superior to God. So that isn't what happened. God appointed Jesus to a superior position than what he had had before. The position at God's right hand and intercessor between man and God.

I see you are new here, so welcome and hope you enjoy your time here.

Jensen
 

Jensen

Active Member
You need to read the verses again. They are clearly stating that God manifested through Jesus. It's saying that in order to walk among us, He became part man, hence all the 'man', reference.

I will give the verses first and then say what I think. I do not see what you are saying above in these verses...


Hebrews 2:17 in context.
…16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

Okay, I have read the verses over and over again, and what I see is that it says that he had to be made like his brethren, that would be man, in all things, all thing would mean in every way. He couldn't be different then us according to these verses, that this was needed so that he would be a merciful and faithful priest. Also that this was needed to make propitiation for our sins. No where do I see it saying that God manifested through Jesus, ( although I know that he was representative of God), and I do not see it saying anything about (walking among us, although we know he did), or becoming part man, in those verses.

Do not add to or take away from the verses. Do not give them meanings that are not there. But take it for what it is clearly saying, without reinventing the meaning.:yes:
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I will give the verses first and then say what I think. I do not see what you are saying above in these verses...


Hebrews 2:17 in context.
…16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

Okay, I have read the verses over and over again, and what I see is that it says that he had to be made like his brethren, that would be man, in all things, all thing would mean in every way. He couldn't be different then us according to these verses, that this was needed so that he would be a merciful and faithful priest. Also that this was needed to make propitiation for our sins. No where do I see it saying that God manifested through Jesus, ( although I know that he was representative of God), and I do not see it saying anything about (walking among us, although we know he did), or becoming part man, in those verses.

Do not add to or take away from the verses. Do not give them meanings that are not there. But take it for what it is clearly saying, without reinventing the meaning.:yes:

Ok there are going to be areas in the NT that I might have an issue with the wording, in the sense that for instance 'high priest' means teacher to me, but is that all Jesus the man was? We have to examine the entire Book(s) to see if it says anything else, for example, in the same book, does it ascribe Deific nature to Jesus. this would then mean, aside from Deific nature, He was also the High Priest etc.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Do not add to or take away from the verses. Do not give them meanings that are not there. But take it for what it is clearly saying, without reinventing the meaning.:yes:

The verses indicate a Deific Jesus, it's all over the Scripture. I don't have to 'add' that, and that is a false assumption that I would, or want to.
 
Hi Susan, I see what you mean. If Jesus is equal to God and God gives him a superior position then Jesus would become superior to God. So that isn't what happened. God appointed Jesus to a superior position than what he had had before. The position at God's right hand and intercessor between man and God.

I see you are new here, so welcome and hope you enjoy your time here.

Jensen

Thanks! I enjoy talking about spiritual matters.

Would just like to add, that there are verses that lead me to believe that Jesus was created. Colossians 1:15-17 explains that Jesus is the first born of all creation. And 1 Thessalonians 4:16, describes Jesus as an archangel.

Could it be that Jesus is in fact the archangel described in Revelation chapters 12 and 19? To me it makes sense.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Thanks! I enjoy talking about spiritual matters.

Would just like to add, that there are verses that lead me to believe that Jesus was created. Colossians 1:15-17 explains that Jesus is the first born of all creation. And 1 Thessalonians 4:16, describes Jesus as an archangel.

Could it be that Jesus is in fact the archangel described in Revelation chapters 12 and 19? To me it makes sense.


Many seem to think its the archangels voice that announces Jesus here at 1Thess 4:16, but it is Gods trumpet that announces Jesus coming-- Jesus is coming with the voice of the archangel-----his voice.
 

Jensen

Active Member
Ok there are going to be areas in the NT that I might have an issue with the wording, in the sense that for instance 'high priest' means teacher to me, but is that all Jesus the man was? We have to examine the entire Book(s) to see if it says anything else, for example, in the same book, does it ascribe Deific nature to Jesus. this would then mean, aside from Deific nature, He was also the High Priest etc.

I think that maybe you are understanding what I was trying to say, maybe all ready had, and that is to not read more into a specific verse than what was said, but look for verses that we do think is supporting our point. I agree that we have to examine the entire book, or chapter at least, before coming to a conclusion without giving meaning to a specific verse/s that are not found in that verse/s.

Thanks for the gentler reply then I'd expected.:)
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I think that maybe you are understanding what I was trying to say, maybe all ready had, and that is to not read more into a specific verse than what was said, but look for verses that we do think is supporting our point. I agree that we have to examine the entire book, or chapter at least, before coming to a conclusion without giving meaning to a specific verse/s that are not found in that verse/s.

Thanks for the gentler reply then I'd expected.:)

I think that the verses regarding divine nature point to the Godhead, or God. Now, there is variation in Christianity, and you might find various beliefs of mine as unchristian, so in this instance I don't think either of us are going to change each others mind. I'm ok with that.
 

Jensen

Active Member
Many seem to think its the archangels voice that announces Jesus here at 1Thess 4:16, but it is Gods trumpet that announces Jesus coming-- Jesus is coming with the voice of the archangel-----his voice.

You said...some think its the archangels voice that announces Jesus here....that's a new thought for me will have to take time to examine those verses more closely for myself.
 

Jensen

Active Member
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

If Jesus is the archangel because he descends from heaven with the voice of the archangel, then is he God because he comes with the trump of God? So if we are to believe that he is the archangel, shouldn't we believe that he is God also?

I have never come to a satisfactory conclusion of this issue of whether Jesus is the archangel....

Jensen
 

Jensen

Active Member
I think that the verses regarding divine nature point to the Godhead, or God. Now, there is variation in Christianity, and you might find various beliefs of mine as unchristian, so in this instance I don't think either of us are going to change each others mind. I'm ok with that.

No, I wouldn't think of your various beliefs as unchristian, only in come situations incorrect in understanding..... we all have this option of course...
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
Many seem to think its the archangels voice that announces Jesus here at 1Thess 4:16, but it is Gods trumpet that announces Jesus coming-- Jesus is coming with the voice of the archangel-----his voice.

The grammatical evidence suggests distinction and separation (two individuals) between the archangel and Christ. The preposition "en" [with] associated with the dative nouns "shout", "voice", and "trumpet" suggest a time-- not an associative aspect. To associate Christ with the one shouting, the preposition "meta" would have been inspired.

Meta denotes a sense of accompaniment and would have suggested Christ and the angel were the same person:

Strongs G3326 μετά meta met-ah'--A primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly denoting accompaniment; “amid” (local or causal); modified variously according to the case (genitive case association, or accusative case succession) with which it is joined; occupying an intermediate position between G575 or G1537 and G1519 or G4314; less intimate than G1722, and less close than G4862): - after (-ward),X that he again, against, among, X and, + follow, hence, hereafter, in, of, (up-) on, + our, X and setting, since, (un-) to, + together, when, with (+ -out). Often used in composition, in substantially the same relations of participation or proximity, and transfer or sequence.​

Instead the preposition "en" was used which, in our context, implicates more of a time aspect and is rarely used with verbs of motion that indicate direction. Descend is a verb of motion:

A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); “in”, at, (up-) on, by, etc.: - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep.​

With this and other biblical evidence, I've come to the conclusion Michael and Christ were not the same person.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
The grammatical evidence suggests distinction and separation (two individuals) between the archangel and Christ. The preposition "en" [with] associated with the dative nouns "shout", "voice", and "trumpet" suggest a time-- not an associative aspect. To associate Christ with the one shouting, the preposition "meta" would have been inspired.

Meta denotes a sense of accompaniment and would have suggested Christ and the angel were the same person:

Strongs G3326 μετά meta met-ah'--A primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly denoting accompaniment; “amid” (local or causal); modified variously according to the case (genitive case association, or accusative case succession) with which it is joined; occupying an intermediate position between G575 or G1537 and G1519 or G4314; less intimate than G1722, and less close than G4862): - after (-ward),X that he again, against, among, X and, + follow, hence, hereafter, in, of, (up-) on, + our, X and setting, since, (un-) to, + together, when, with (+ -out). Often used in composition, in substantially the same relations of participation or proximity, and transfer or sequence.​

Instead the preposition "en" was used which, in our context, implicates more of a time aspect and is rarely used with verbs of motion that indicate direction. Descend is a verb of motion:

A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); “in”, at, (up-) on, by, etc.: - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep.​

With this and other biblical evidence, I've come to the conclusion Michael and Christ were not the same person.


Michael is a spirit being---Jesus was a mortal--Michael is Jesus. One white horse--one rider--two rides.
 
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Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Michael is a spirit being---Jesus was a mortal--Michael is Jesus. One white horse--one rider--two rides.
So Jesus comes with both a trumpet and the shout of an archangel, therefore Jesus is an archangel. Therefore, he must also be a trumpet! BRILLIANT!
 
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