The Trinity

[TG123456]

1+1+1=1? or 1+1+1=3 or 1+1+1= something else?

Try 1x1x1=1

 

[idav]

Try 1x1x1=1

That works but is pointless and amounts to one entity with one power that isn't less than or more than the rest.

 

[kjw47]

Try 1x1x1=1

This is not truth-- the trinity teaching is this 1+1+1=1---not in reality.
Jesus, Paul and John all clearly teach--the Father is Jesus' God.---do you believe God has a God?

 

[Jensen]

Its been 3 days now...I really would like an explanation to what is meant by verse 16. What do you think is being said here? Is it that long hair or not long hair does not matter to the churches of God? That neither men nor women must adhere to these verses? as it says we have no such custom, neither the churches of God...
I do not plan to debate this...but am seeking an explanation as I'm not sure that I've understood it correctly in the past.

Will get back to the trinity once this has been made clearer for me. Sorry, for getting off topic.

Ok, so one should dismiss the verse if one does not agree with it? And give it a different meaning? That I could see if one doesn't believe in the bible. Here is the verse in context...after reading it, tell me what do you think is meant by the last verse...16But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God. What do you think is being said here?

1 Cor 11:1-16


1Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

2Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. 3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 4Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. 5But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. 6For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. 7For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. 8For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. 9Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. 10For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. 11Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. 12For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God. 13Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? 14Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? 15But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. 16But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus the man is part man. That is why, in human form He can pray to the Father, etc. Jesus the God is all god i.e. JHVH, they are one, as is the Spirit is one in the Godhead.

The flesh is not the reflection of God, well it ls, but not only. The Spirit is the reflection of God.

The Godhead is God in totality of His forms, it is one Deity.

I believe this sounds like Jesus is two entities when He is one entity.

I believe Jesus is part man and part God.

God is one but spatially speaking not all of God who is throughtout the universe is in Jesus. That does not mean that God has separate parts but only that we perceive that which is in Jesus differently from how we perceive the universal God.

I had to rethink this. I believe the Spirit of God does influence the mind of Jesus but that the mind is not an exact reflection of the Spirit and sometimes has a will of its own as in the Garden of Gethsemane.

I believe the Spirit is God.

I believe God only has one form although the term form is a bit of a stretch since it is non-material (as far as we know).

 

[Muffled]

Jesus said this....

Luke 4:8 JKV
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Did he mean himself? I don't think so as he also said this...


John 17:3 KJV
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

again he didn't say me...if he did it would read like this which does not make any sense whatever......And this is life eternal, that they might know me the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom me hast sent.

It is incorrect to worship Jesus as God. Honor him would be okay, listen to what he said, accept what he said, accept him as the Son of God, but not worship him as God, being that he isn't God by his own words.

I believe what you think about it doesn't matter. I only accept good logic. I believe this is the null hypothesis and one will have to prove that it was necessary for Jesus to say worship me, otherwise the fact that He didn't say it means nothing.

I believe it makes perfect sense but again I don't see why one would think it necessary for Jesus to say that.

I believe your conclusion is false because your premises are false.

 

[Muffled]

1 Corinthians 8:6 (English-NIV)


6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.


Ephesians 4:6 (English-NIV)

6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Romans 15:6 (English-NIV)
so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I believe this is the null hypothesis again. I believe one must be able to show that the exclusion of Jesus and the Paraclete necessarily means that they are not God. However the rest of the Bible conclusively reveals that they are God and therefore helps to eliminate that possibility.

 

[Jensen]

What I see here is a Christian that doesn't appear to believe in the word of God, as I posted verses and only colored parts of those verses and you still do not accept what those verses are actually saying...because of this I see no point in discussing scripture with you being that you do not seem to accept it for what it says. Sorry, but that is how I see it.

Jensen

 

[Desert Snake]

I believe this sounds like Jesus is two entities when He is one entity.

No, I think one entity as well, but the man form of Jesus is different as man, because of the human part, hence the praying to 'the Father'.

I believe Jesus is part man and part God.

Yes, agreed. The purpose was to walk among men, therefore that necessity imo.

God is one but spatially speaking not all of God who is throughtout the universe is in Jesus. That does not mean that God has separate parts but only that we perceive that which is in Jesus differently from how we perceive the universal God.

Jesus the man, perhaps in physicality, as the Son of God, however, we clearly have Deity, we agree here I believe, simply using different description.
This is sort of tricky, because through the Spirit Jesus is Divine as well, so imo only the 'man part' of Jesus is different.

I had to rethink this. I believe the Spirit of God does influence the mind of Jesus but that the mind is not an exact reflection of the Spirit and sometimes has a will of its own as in the Garden of Gethsemane.

Yes, exactly my interpretation, again the necessity because of human nature when among men.

I believe the Spirit is God.

Agreed. God through the Spirit, that's why Jesus is referred to as Deity even in man form, imo.

I believe God only has one form although the term form is a bit of a stretch since it is non-material (as far as we know).

Yes, one form, different manifestations through the Son, and the Spirit.
Adding to this, throughout the entire Bible, we have the plurality worshipped, Elohim, and the singular worshipped as well, so there appears to never have been a 'contradiction in understanding that the plural of God and the singular is essentially the same worship, as we know it is monotheistic worship.

 

[TheScholar]

The traditional churches believe in the holy Trinity, as do I. In Matthew 16:15–16, Peter calls Jesus the Son of God, and he accepted the title.

In Matthew 11:27 Jesus proclaims: "All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal"

Jesus is called the "Son of God" by followers 35 times in the NT.
Jesus refers to himself as the "Son of God' 7 times in the NT.
Jesus is called by demons the "Son of God" 7 times in the NT.

This shows that Jesus is a separate entity from his father (God), and not a separate manifestation.

 

[Desert Snake]

The traditional churches believe in the holy Trinity, as do I. In Matthew 16:15–16, Peter calls Jesus the Son of God, and he accepted the title.

In Matthew 11:27 Jesus proclaims: "All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal"

Jesus is called the "Son of God" by followers 35 times in the NT.
Jesus refers to himself as the "Son of God' 7 times in the NT.
Jesus is called by demons the "Son of God" 7 times in the NT.

This shows that Jesus is a separate entity from his father (God), and not a separate manifestation.

Jesus in man form literally is the Son of God, however we are admonished against polytheistic worship, so Oneness in Godhead is implied.
The Son is the Father, God manifested through the Spirit unto Jesus. If Jesus was 'separate', He would have been the same in nature to us, but He isn't, hence the multiple references to Deity.

 

[TheScholar]

Jesus in man form literally is the Son of God, however we are admonished against polytheistic worship, so Oneness in Godhead is implied.
The Son is the Father, God manifested through the Spirit unto Jesus. If Jesus was 'separate', He would have been the same in nature to us, but He isn't, hence the multiple references to Deity.

In John 16:28 "I leave the world and go to the Father." Even after His resurrection in His glorified body, Jesus declares in John 20:17, "Touch Me not; for I am not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto My Father, and Your Father, and to My God and your God." They were not with each other yet. Jesus was on earth and His Father in heaven, even after His resurrection and before His ascension. Thus, Jesus cannot be His Father

 

[Desert Snake]

In John 16:28 "I leave the world and go to the Father." Even after His resurrection in His glorified body, Jesus declares in John 20:17, "Touch Me not; for I am not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto My Father, and Your Father, and to My God and your God." They were not with each other yet. Jesus was on earth and His Father in heaven, even after His resurrection and before His ascension. Thus, Jesus cannot be His Father

How can you worship Jesus if you think He isn't part of the Godhead? That doesn't make sense to me, what would you do, worship differently on different days, or what?
1 Are you saying to not worship Jesus?
2. Are you saying that worshipping Jesus is not worshipping the Father?
3. If worshipping Jesus is to worship the Father, how could They be separate Deities?

I think we have to assume Godhead if we worship Jesus, otherwise this means a non all knowing Deity, aside from non-monotheism.

 

[TheScholar]

How can you worship Jesus if you think He isn't part of the Godhead? That doesn't make sense to me, what would you do, worship differently on different days, or what?
1 Are you saying to not worship Jesus?
2. Are you saying that worshipping Jesus is not worshipping the Father?
3. If worshipping Jesus is to worship the Father, how could They be separate Deities?

I think we have to assume Godhead if we worship Jesus, otherwise this means a non all knowing Deity, aside from non-monotheism.

I don't worship Jesus, because he's not the father in Heaven. He's the Son of God, but he isn't God. Sorry to burst your bubble. I've had falling outs with other believers for this opinion, but I don't care.

 

[kjw47]

The traditional churches believe in the holy Trinity, as do I. In Matthew 16:15–16, Peter calls Jesus the Son of God, and he accepted the title.

In Matthew 11:27 Jesus proclaims: "All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal"

Jesus is called the "Son of God" by followers 35 times in the NT.
Jesus refers to himself as the "Son of God' 7 times in the NT.
Jesus is called by demons the "Son of God" 7 times in the NT.

This shows that Jesus is a separate entity from his father (God), and not a separate manifestation.

Trinity churches teach dogmas of men--
Jesus taught--John 20:17, rev 3:12
Paul taught-2 Cor 1:3, 1Cor 8:6,1Cor 15:24-28
John taught-rev 1:6--- this is truth.

 

[Jensen]

Jesus in man form literally is the Son of God, however we are admonished against polytheistic worship, so Oneness in Godhead is implied.
The Son is the Father, God manifested through the Spirit unto Jesus. If Jesus was 'separate', He would have been the same in nature to us, but He isn't, hence the multiple references to Deity.

Scripture disagree with you. He was in the same nature to us, where do you get that he wasn't?....verses to support this.


Jesus Made Like His Brothers

Hebrews 2:
16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Hebrews 2:17 in context.
…16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

 

[Desert Snake]

Scripture disagree with you. He was in the same nature to us, where do you get that he wasn't?....verses to support this.


Jesus Made Like His Brothers

Hebrews 2:
16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Hebrews 2:17 in context.
…16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

These show that He is totally different, actually. Thanks for providing those verses those are great examples showing Gods transcendent quality into other form, Jesus.

Btw, the man part is human, not sure why you keep confusing what I'm saying.

 

[Jensen]

Actually it doesn't show that he is totally different, but that he was made like his brethren in all things. That is what those scriptures are saying. That he was the same as us.

So my question is why do you not accept what the verses are saying even when given without my view added? The verses are straightforward and not that hard to understand, yet you put an incoherent meaning to them.

That is a rejection of scripture in my view.

 

[Desert Snake]

Actually it doesn't show that he is totally different, but that he was made like his brethren in all things. That is what those scriptures are saying. That he was the same as us.

So my question is why do you not accept what the verses are saying even when given without my view added? The verses are straightforward and not that hard to understand, yet you put an incoherent meaning to them.

That is a rejection of scripture in my view.

You need to read the verses again. They are clearly stating that God manifested through Jesus. It's saying that in order to walk among us, He became part man, hence all the 'man', reference.

 

[Susanpalli,JW]

In John 6:38, Jesus says:"I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me."

My question is, after reading this verse, couldn't God be greater than Jesus?

Philippians 2:9 reads:"God exalted him (Jesus) to a superior position, and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name."

My question is, if Jesus is equal to God, how could he become superior to God?