The Trinity

[Jensen]

I think it's appropriate to worship Jesus as God. Same Godhead.

Jesus said this....

Luke 4:8 JKV
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Did he mean himself? I don't think so as he also said this...


John 17:3 KJV
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

again he didn't say me...if he did it would read like this which does not make any sense whatever......And this is life eternal, that they might know me the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom me hast sent.

It is incorrect to worship Jesus as God. Honor him would be okay, listen to what he said, accept what he said, accept him as the Son of God, but not worship him as God, being that he isn't God by his own words.

 

[Jensen]

The three Persons are one in Their unity and Essence.

1 Corinthians 8:6 (English-NIV)


6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.


Ephesians 4:6 (English-NIV)

6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Romans 15:6 (English-NIV)
so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Desert Snake]

Jesus said this....

Luke 4:8 JKV
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Did he mean himself? I don't think so as he also said this...


John 17:3 KJV
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

again he didn't say me...if he did it would read like this which does not make any sense whatever......And this is life eternal, that they might know me the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom me hast sent.

It is incorrect to worship Jesus as God. Honor him would be okay, listen to what he said, accept what he said, accept him as the Son of God, but not worship him as God, being that he isn't God by his own words.

Jesus is not one character. He is only one character if you think He is 'just a man', but that is not what Scripture says. It really isn't at all what Scripture says. First off, He is worshipped at birth. That's not normal. Secondly, the narrative literally makes his 'father' aspect a Divine, it isn't like our spirits, it's a different Spirit. Then, we have numerous references to His being God or deity/divine, this, again, is not normal. Once we except the overwhelming evidence in Scripture of His divinity, we are faced with two options, basically. Do we think He is God, or do we think He is different from us, but not God. Someone who is just 'different from us, but not God, is not worthy of worship, otherwise we are polytheistic man worshippers. Jesus as 'divine' but still just a 'man' in essence is still polytheism. That leaves one option, that of Jesus as God, Jesus the God, same as the Father, worshipped as One Godhead. This leaves no contradiction, no polytheism, no 'man worship'.

 

[Jensen]

I believe the JW's excel in mistranslations.

I believe that mainline Christianity excels in mistranslations of scripture much more, and some intentionally to back their preconceived beliefs.

 

[Jensen]

I believe what you think is obvious is totally illogical. The conclusion does not follow from the premises.

I mean that Jehovah does not consider that there is any God other than Himself.

For instance if I write about my self in the third person I don't sonsider that I have created a new self. The person to whom I am referring is me.

So you are saying that you do not believe these verses are saying what they so obviously are saying??? That the obvious conclusion is illogical? All I can say about that is that you do not believe what is being said, but desire to believe what you wish.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (English-NIV)
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

John 17:3 (English-NIV)
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

1 Corinthians 3:22-23 (English-NIV)
22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas {That is, Peter} or the world or life or death or the present or the future all are yours,
23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God…

Ephesians 4:4-6 (English-NIV)
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Romans 15:6 (English-NIV)
so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:3 (English-NIV)
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,

2 Corinthians 11:31 (English-NIV)
The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.

Ephesians 1:3 (English-NIV)
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

Colossians 1:3 (English-NIV)
We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,

1 Peter 1:3 (English-NIV)
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Ephesians 1:17 (English-NIV)
I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.

 

[kjw47]

Jesus the man is part man. That is why, in human form He can pray to the Father, etc. Jesus the God is all god i.e. JHVH, they are one, as is the Spirit is one in the Godhead.

The flesh is not the reflection of God, well it ls, but not only. The Spirit is the reflection of God.

The Godhead is God in totality of His forms, it is one Deity.

Deut 32:4--- all of Gods ways are justice---
He taught us his perfectly balanced justice--an eye for an eye--

A perfect mortal being( Adam) lost a righteous standing before God and every mortal ever since was a sinner. Jesus a perfect mortal being( not God) bought back what Adam had lost, by dying a sinless life, but paying the wages of sin( death)--- otherwise it wouldn't have been fair in accordance to Justice if Jesus were God. Jesus was made lower than the angels-- Jesus was mortal flesh--Gods power went through him-Acts 2:22

 

[Jensen]

Jesus the man is part man. That is why, in human form He can pray to the Father, etc. Jesus the God is all god i.e. JHVH, they are one, as is the Spirit is one in the Godhead.

The flesh is not the reflection of God, well it ls, but not only. The Spirit is the reflection of God.

The Godhead is God in totality of His forms, it is one Deity.

He did not need to be God to save his people. He needed to just like his brethren. Jesus the man is part man? Not according to the bible. It says....

KJV Hebrews 2:17
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

In Context..

Jesus Made Like His Brothers
…16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

 

[Desert Snake]

He did not need to be God to save his people. He needed to just like his brethren. Jesus the man is part man? Not according to the bible. It says....

KJV Hebrews 2:17
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

In Context..

Jesus Made Like His Brothers
…16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

This doesn't refute my statements. You are saying 'Jesus was a man'. I am saying, Jesus was a man with the Spirit/God, as well. He is still 'man' in both interpretations, we don't worship a man, we worship a God i.e. God, Jesus, Spirit, The Godhead. It is all one Deity.
Incidentally, if you believe otherwise, there are many verses that you are going to have to explain.

 

[Jensen]

Jesus is not one character. He is only one character if you think He is 'just a man', but that is not what Scripture says. It really isn't at all what Scripture says. First off, He is worshipped at birth. That's not normal. Secondly, the narrative literally makes his 'father' aspect a Divine, it isn't like our spirits, it's a different Spirit. Then, we have numerous references to His being God or deity/divine, this, again, is not normal. Once we except the overwhelming evidence in Scripture of His divinity, we are faced with two options, basically. Do we think He is God, or do we think He is different from us, but not God. Someone who is just 'different from us, but not God, is not worthy of worship, otherwise we are polytheistic man worshippers. Jesus as 'divine' but still just a 'man' in essence is still polytheism. That leaves one option, that of Jesus as God, Jesus the God, same as the Father, worshipped as One Godhead. This leaves no contradiction, no polytheism, no 'man worship'.

Then you disagree with Jesus and the bible... “This is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent,” John 17:3.


“For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,” 1 Tim. 2:5.


This was said after Jesus' ascension, he was and still is a man,


“It is Christ that died, yea, rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us,” Rom. 8:34.


Also said after Jesus' ascension, he is still Christ, at God right hand, not God, but our intercessor.


“My father is greater than all,” John 10:29.

“My Father is greater than I,” John 14:

“Why callest thou me Good? There is none good but one, that is God,” Matt 19:17
. He denies that he is God.

Go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God,” John 20:17.

6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 1 Cor. 8: 6.


“The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do,” John 5:19. “The Father loveth the Son, and showth him all things that himself doeth” John 5:20.


…16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.…

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

This is also said after Jesus' ascension. He still has a God and Father. It was not only while a man on earth but also after being in heaven with God. He is not God.

 

[Jensen]

This doesn't refute my statements. You are saying 'Jesus was a man'. I am saying, Jesus was a man with the Spirit/God, as well. He is still 'man' in both interpretations, we don't worship a man, we worship a God i.e. God, Jesus, Spirit, The Godhead. It is all one Deity.
Incidentally, if you believe otherwise, there are many verses that you are going to have to explain.

You said...."Jesus the man is part man."

My verse was to show that your statement is wrong as he was to be like his brethren in all things, that he could not be "part man" and fulfill this requirement.
Neither could he be part God, or fully God and fully man, and still be fulfilling that verse.

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren,


He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

 

[Desert Snake]

Then you disagree with Jesus and the bible... “This is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent,” John 17:3.
“For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,” 1 Tim. 2:5.

Right, the 'man'. But the Bible is very clear, Jesus is not just a man, He is born of the Spirit.

This was said after Jesus' ascension, he was and still is a man,

“It is Christ that died, yea, rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us,” Rom. 8:34.

Jesus the God is an aspect of God, that is why you have statements such as 'to worship the Son is to worship the Father. How is that possible with separate beings? Simple, it isn't, it's the same Deity.

“My father is greater than all,” John 10:29.

Yes, this is Jesus the man speaking. He even prayed to God.

“My Father is greater than I,” John 14:

Again, of course, in man form the Father is greater, that's the whole point of walking among us.

“Why callest thou me Good? There is none good but one, that is God,” Matt 19:17
. He denies that he is God.

Yet again, in man form He isn't God, but a aspect, the Son.

Go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God,” John 20:17.

Yes, and the Son is the Father.

6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 1 Cor. 8: 6.

This doesn't back your argument as far as I can tell.

“The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do,” John 5:19. “The Father loveth the Son, and showth him all things that himself doeth” John 5:20.

Exactly. This clearly is putting Jesus in Divine or Godly status, the 'reflection'. This is not talk about a man, unless you really think the average dude can attain that. I don't.

…16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.…

Do you see the wording here? "Son of the living God"? That is not 'normal speak', don't believe the hype, he's calling him a Deity.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Jesus/God, was part man in that manifestation, therefore subject to the rules we are.

This is also said after Jesus' ascension. He still has a God and Father. It was not only while a man on earth but also after being in heaven with God. He is not God.

This is not going to work when compared to other verses, I hope this isn't your entire argument.
I think the problem is that you are not understanding the 'plurality' nature of God/Jesus, He can manifest Himself in different modes, but it's still the same Deity, similar to how you might watch someone on t.v., but you don't think it's her on the screen, it's a 'version' of her.

 

[Desert Snake]

6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 1 Cor. 8: 6.

This is an interesting example of a verse that can be confusing. At first glance, it seems there is a reference to a seperation, but when read again, we actually see that.....'Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things'...clearly, this is not a 'man' being referred to. That would make absolutely no sense.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

In John 20:28, Thomas referred to Jesus as "my Lord and my God". Jesus didn't rebuke him for calling Him God.

I think a lot of people get tripped up over how to read the Gospels. Sometimes Jesus is talking as a man and sometimes He is talking as God. A big part of Jesus's ministry was to show us how to live so He demonstrated that through words and actions.

 

[kjw47]

In John 20:28, Thomas referred to Jesus as "my Lord and my God". Jesus didn't rebuke him for calling Him God.

I think a lot of people get tripped up over how to read the Gospels. Sometimes Jesus is talking as a man and sometimes He is talking as God. A big part of Jesus's ministry was to show us how to live so He demonstrated that through words and actions.

See your pic of Jesus? reality-----

God made a special covenant with Nazarites( Samson) not Nazarenes( Jesus) -- it stipulated--Nazarite males can have long hair but can never consume alchohol---- Thus in the pictures portraying Jesus with long hair have been showing him as a sinner in front of the eyes of all creation for centuries( satans will)---far removed from God--that is a guarantee--I guarantee Jesus is very displeased as well. But have no fear--the great apostasy has been exposed for what they really are--far removed from God.

 

[Desert Snake]

See your pic of Jesus? reality-----

God made a special covenant with Nazarites( Samson) not Nazarenes( Jesus) -- it stipulated--Nazarite males can have long hair but can never consume alchohol---- Thus in the pictures portraying Jesus with long hair have been showing him as a sinner in front of the eyes of all creation for centuries( satans will)---far removed from God--that is a guarantee--I guarantee Jesus is very displeased as well. But have no fear--the great apostasy has been exposed for what they really are--far removed from God.

Jesus is portrayed with long hair in even very early portrayals.

 

[Jensen]

i have a little time today and im working bacwards... last post 1St...

Anyways, as a Trinitarian we also believe one should worship only God, YHWH, Jehovah as well. We also believe Jesus is YHWH Jehovah. We believe that God really did save us himself, not creating a being to do so in his place. Let me ask you a question: Do you believe John who wrote Revelation worshipped Jesus?

Ice, yes, Trinitarians worship God Yahweh, I don't disagree with this. We differ in that I do not believe that Jesus is Yahweh. As I believe, and believe that the bible does also, that Jesus is the Son of God. That this doesn't make him God just as it doesn't make all the sons of God, repented believers, God.

Jesus, and his God the Father, and all his disciples are all one in unity and purpose. This does not mean they are all of the same being, as neither does it mean that Jesus is the same being as God when in one unity.

God the Father saved us in that He sent his Son to save us from our sins by dying for the repented believers. God himself did not die as the bible says that God is eternal, and if Yahweh died, then He would not be eternal. The bible says that the one that was to save man from his sins had to be like man in every way, and so he was. It was a perfect sinless man, not God, that was required to die for the sins of man.....Gods requirement.

Sometimes its very hard to know the difference between a Trinitarian and a Oneness Pent. One thing we must all agree upon, is that we are trying to explain our creator and this might be something of the realms of impossible to know 100%. As for your explaination of the Trinity, I would tweak it a bit…
The trinity says that God is One that revealed himself through three persons(Father, Son, HS), each separate, and none of them the other. Not multiple Gods, but one Body of God that is united as our One God. All Eternal and Uncreated and our Creator.

Only God Yahweh is eternal, the bible says that Jesus was the firstborn, created as some believe, born even of Mary. He was not eternal as he died, and according to the bible God did not die, can not die; if he did he would not be eternal. This is how I see it, and I know you do not agree, but I believe that this is in agreement with the bible.

I think that one of the biggest problems between Trinitarians and Anti-Trinitarians bounces around this question. Can God in some fashion take a part of his being or essence and make it into a man and experience his own creation 1st hand as a servant or must he create someone to do this for him…

Why consider something or ponder on a theory that isn't biblical? This is what you are doing here.

We also all think of the word God in so many different fashions today.

Today? We should consider what the word meant and how it was used in the day of the Apostles, if wanting to understand what was meant; not how it is used today with its changed meanings, and thereby changing who God is.

Is God a title that can be swapped or is it the very Essence of what makes God God… For example, Trinitarians believe Jesus carries this essence that makes God God and is also God himself, yet clothed with human flesh for a little while and raised to honor as a man that not only was once God, but also holds to this essence of God. That is why we hear the term God Man in Trinitarian language. So the million dollar question is: Can God do all of this himself, relying upon only himself to save his creation or must he rely upon a created being to be faithful? Are we saved by God alone or God and a created being is the underline issue…

I do not think the words essence, clothed with human flesh, God Man, or fully God and fully man, God the Son, or trinity, appear in the bible; and the reason is because it isn't an accurate portrayal of Jesus, but only terms by Trinitarians to attempt to support a doctrine that is not found in the bible....the trinity.

I would also like to add 2 questions that no one (Anti-Trinitarians) has really attempted to answer
Was Jesus born twice and was Jesus given Glory Twice? Please explain
Out of Time and I only got back to a few posts that where not even directed to me…. Go Figure

This question has been answered before Icebuddy....Jesus was born once, literally from his mother Mary.

And all glory is given to God the Father.

 

[Jensen]

“This is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent,” John 17:3.
“For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,” 1 Tim. 2:5. This was said after Jesus' ascension, he was and still is a man,.....

Right, the 'man'. But the Bible is very clear, Jesus is not just a man, He is born of the Spirit.

The above verses were given to show that the bible says that Jesus is still a man while a mediator between God and men as said in Timothy. Being that this is after Jesus' ascension then he is not God, especially being that the bible also says...“It is Christ that died, yea, rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us,” Rom. 8:34. And so being said to be at the "right hand of God" shows that he is not God that he is at the right hand of.

Jesus the God is an aspect of God, that is why you have statements such as 'to worship the Son is to worship the Father. How is that possible with separate beings? Simple, it isn't, it's the same Deity.

The bible never speaks of a Jesus the God. Also where in the bible does it say "to worship the Son is to worship the Father?" Also my verse that you were replying to was..... .“It is Christ that died, yea, rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us,” Rom. 8:34.." How does you reply address that? That Jesus is at the right hand of God and so is not God. It does not say they are the same deity.

I posted...“My father is greater than all,” John 10:29. And you answered with this...

Yes, this is Jesus the man speaking. He even prayed to God.

Jesus was a man, and still is a man, so he was speaking as a man and still prays to his God as a man. The Father is still greater than all, and the bible says that Jesus will be put under the authority of God with all things.( I'm sure you know what verse I'm referring to.)This would not be if he was God with God.

Again, of course, in man form the Father is greater, that's the whole point of walking among us.

When Jesus said that My Father is greater than I in John 14, he meant just that, and being that Jesus still is a man after ascension, the Father still is greater than Jesus. Also, the bible never speaks of a man form the Father. And it was the Son that walked among us. The point of Jesus coming among us was to save man from his sins, to die for man,and to bring the gospel.

Yet again, in man form He isn't God, but a aspect, the Son.

In Matt 19:17 Jesus said there is none good but one, that is God. And that is what he meant.

Yes, and the Son is the Father.

So in the verse John 20:17, that I gave, that your answer was to, that you believe he was saying...Go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father which is me, and your Father which is me; and to my God which is me and your God which is me,”?

This doesn't back your argument as far as I can tell.

Actually, it backs it quite well...6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 1 Cor. 8: 6.

Exactly. This clearly is putting Jesus in Divine or Godly status, the 'reflection'. This is not talk about a man, unless you really think the average dude can attain that. I don't.

John 5:20 is showing that the Son is completely under the authority of God, and in obedience to God, as it says.....“The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do,” John 5:19. “The Father loveth the Son, and showth him all things that himself doeth” John 5:20. Nothing here that shows Jesus as divine or in a God status, but that he is subordinate to God.

Do you see the wording here? "Son of the living God"? That is not 'normal speak', don't believe the hype, he's calling him a Deity.

I don't think what Peter said is "hype." He said...You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Nowhere in this did he say that Jesus is God.

Jesus/God, was part man in that manifestation, therefore subject to the rules we are.

There is no Jesus/God. And Peter believes that Jesus has a God, that is what this verse shows....1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, ....

This is not going to work when compared to other verses, I hope this isn't your entire argument.
I think the problem is that you are not understanding the 'plurality' nature of God/Jesus, He can manifest Himself in different modes, but it's still the same Deity, similar to how you might watch someone on t.v., but you don't think it's her on the screen, it's a 'version' of her.

At least my argument is backed up with scripture, some of which I have posted, whereas, you haven't posted any verses in your reply here.

And yes, I do understand the "plurality" of the trinitatian view of God. The bible doesn't teach such a doctrine. My question to you would be, do you understand the Plurality of Excellence? It has nothing to do with a God made up of three persons.

 

[Jensen]

6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 1 Cor. 8: 6.

This is an interesting example of a verse that can be confusing. At first glance, it seems there is a reference to a seperation, but when read again, we actually see that.....'Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things'...clearly, this is not a 'man' being referred to. That would make absolutely no sense.

The part that I posted the verse for is not confusing as it says....to us there is but one God, the Father,

Since it also says... we in him, it must mean we are God too? I don't think so. Neither does it mean Jesus is God too.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

See your pic of Jesus? reality-----

God made a special covenant with Nazarites( Samson) not Nazarenes( Jesus) -- it stipulated--Nazarite males can have long hair but can never consume alchohol---- Thus in the pictures portraying Jesus with long hair have been showing him as a sinner in front of the eyes of all creation for centuries( satans will)---far removed from God--that is a guarantee--I guarantee Jesus is very displeased as well. But have no fear--the great apostasy has been exposed for what they really are--far removed from God.

What a bizarre attempt to derail a thread. :areyoucra

 

[Desert Snake]

John 5:20 is showing that the Son is completely under the authority of God, and in obedience to God, as it says.....“The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do,” John 5:19. “The Father loveth the Son, and showth him all things that himself doeth” John 5:20. Nothing here that shows Jesus as divine or in a God status, but that he is subordinate to God.

This IS showing that Jesus is divine, it's obvious. We, for instance, are not in Jesus's position, we are not divine in the same way, Jesus has a different Spirit.

I don't think what Peter said is "hype." He said...You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Nowhere in this did he say that Jesus is God.

That's because Jesus is the Son, in man form. The 'hype' I'm referring to is the notion that Son of God is some 'usual title, justified by the fact that we are sons of God, it isn't used like that, it is a literal title, not what He is inherently by being a person in the faith.

There is no Jesus/God. And Peter believes that Jesus has a God, that is what this verse shows....1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, ....

Jesus has a God, actually a Father, in man form. However being an aspect of God, /He's Divine/, he also speaks with authority from the spirit.

And yes, I do understand the "plurality" of the trinitatian view of God. The bible doesn't teach such a doctrine. My question to you would be, do you understand the Plurality of Excellence? It has nothing to do with a God made up of three persons.

See, I wasn't even describing the trinity. So you apparently didn't understand my comments. 'Plurality' of God, when I say it, is God being able to manifest in different forms, not 'trinity concept', though I believe we end up with the same worship, ultimately. I was espousing Oneness doctrine, but regardless, we can't have a 'man only' Jesus it simply doesn't work, for many reasons, and it isn't Scriptural either.


We are not interpreting these verses in the same manner, it is obvious. I think we should take the argument in another direction(s) of logic so we don't simply keep repeating our arguments.