The Trinity

[moorea944]

Yes, I agree with you. He did come from heaven. In God's plans, thoughts, reasons. Jesus was the "logos" of God. Not physically, but in God's plans. Jesus wasnt born yet. So are you saying that he was immortal, then mortal, then back to immortality?

 

[kjw47]

We mortals do not become made lower. We were always lower.
We mortals did not come from heaven.

What are you talking about--LISTEN.
Gods word teaches --Jesus--the one sent forth( from heaven by the Father) Gods appointed king( Daniel 7:13-15)( ancient of days= God-- the appointed one is not, he has to gain entrance to see God.in that passage) was made--lower than the angels as a Mortal--they did not bow to a God in worship to a Mortal--They bowed to their king in obeisance to a mortal.
A misleading error( worship to a mortal) to fit the non existent trinity god formed at the councils of Catholicism.

 

[Sonofason]

We do not need to learn another language to know God's Truth. We do not need to study another language to know God's Truth.

Then why is there a discrepancy in the Titan's verse we were just discussing, between the original greek and the KJV version.
again:

Titus 2:13
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" KJV
Here it sounds like:
1. We're looking for a blessed hope which is clearly not defined in this passage as it is quite ambiguous as to what or whom this blessed hope is. It could be God, Jesus, God and Jesus, one in the same entity called God and Jesus, or something else that is the blessed hope, maybe salvation, I can't tell.
2. We're also looking for either, the glorious appearing of the great God who is called God and Jesus Christ, or the glorious appearing of the great God and someone else named Jesus Christ.

These verses are ambiguous and I understand that you believe that Jesus Christ is God because of this.

This is what we have in the Greek. Please note that all Greek versions of the Bible say exactly the same thing in the Greek.
"προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ καὶ Σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ."

A direct translation reads:
"Awaiting the blessed hope, and (the) appearing of the glory of the great God and Savior of us, Christ Jesus"
Titus 2:13 Greek Text Analysis

Now, this seems to be saying that we are awaiting a blessed hope, which is to say that we are awaiting the appearing of the glory of the great God and Savior of us, and that that blessed hope and glory of the great God and Savior is indeed Christ Jesus.

And this is not what the KJV said. These two versions are contradictory. Who is the blessed hope? Who is the glory of the great God and Savior of us?
It is Jesus Christ. God's glory. God is our Savior. Jesus Christ is God's glory who in doing the will of the Father accomplished the will of the Father, and himself I'm sure, that we might be saved.

 

[Sonofason]

That is precisely what I did and always do. I still come up with the same conclusion. Jesus is referred to here as God and Savior.

From the King James Version, I can see why you would think that.
But the Strong's Concordance is not in agreement apparently.

 

[Sonofason]

Would you agree that God is our Savior?
Would you agree Jesus is our Savior?

Yes, it appears that God is our Savior. And because God's Son Jesus submitted willingly to His Father's will, Jesus is our Savior as well. Without Jesus, God's will would not have been accomplished. God the Father would have had to find another way.

Are you saying God is coming and Jesus is coming? Are you saying we are going to see two different Saviors?

I have to admit I could be reading this wrong. That verse, as I'm reading it, as interpreted by Strong's, seems to be saying that Jesus is the glory of our great God and Savior, and that the name of that glory is Jesus Christ.

Isn't Jesus being referred to as the great God and Savior here?

It does't appear so to me. It seems to be suggesting that Jesus is God's glory.

I'm also seeing THE great God and Savior of us, Jesus Christ.

Honestly, I'm not sure about all this. It could even be saying that God is Jesus, and that we're not going to see either of them, but will see the Glory of them. Wow, very confusing to me.

Doesn't THE refer to one?

Yes but that could be the glory, not the savior, or saviors. We perhaps could be looking for the glory of the savior who is God and Jesus Christ, or we could be looking for the glory of God which is the second coming of Jesus Christ. I'm twisted. There's something wrong with me. I can't understand the English language anymore.

And why doesn't the verse say Saviors?

Well, perhaps because they are one in the same. Or perhaps because God is the Savior because He sacrificed His Son for us. Is the Lamb the savior, or is the one who provided the Lamb the Savior?

 

[Yes]

Then why is there a discrepancy in the Titan's verse we were just discussing, between the original greek and the KJV version.
again:

Titus 2:13
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" KJV
Here it sounds like:
1. We're looking for a blessed hope which is clearly not defined in this passage as it is quite ambiguous as to what or whom this blessed hope is. It could be God, Jesus, God and Jesus, one in the same entity called God and Jesus, or something else that is the blessed hope, maybe salvation, I can't tell.
2. We're also looking for either, the glorious appearing of the great God who is called God and Jesus Christ, or the glorious appearing of the great God and someone else named Jesus Christ.

These verses are ambiguous and I understand that you believe that Jesus Christ is God because of this.

This is what we have in the Greek. Please note that all Greek versions of the Bible say exactly the same thing in the Greek.
"προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ καὶ Σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ."

A direct translation reads:
"Awaiting the blessed hope, and (the) appearing of the glory of the great God and Savior of us, Christ Jesus"
Titus 2:13 Greek Text Analysis

Now, this seems to be saying that we are awaiting a blessed hope, which is to say that we are awaiting the appearing of the glory of the great God and Savior of us, and that that blessed hope and glory of the great God and Savior is indeed Christ Jesus.

And this is not what the KJV said. These two versions are contradictory. Who is the blessed hope? Who is the glory of the great God and Savior of us?
It is Jesus Christ. God's glory. God is our Savior. Jesus Christ is God's glory who in doing the will of the Father accomplished the will of the Father, and himself I'm sure, that we might be saved.

There are many reasons why I believe Jesus is God. I do not believe Jesus is God because of that one scripture.

 

[Yes]

Yes, I agree with you. He did come from heaven. In God's plans, thoughts, reasons. Jesus was the "logos" of God. Not physically, but in God's plans. Jesus wasnt born yet. So are you saying that he was immortal, then mortal, then back to immortality?

Jesus was in heaven with God before coming to earth.

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

 

[Sonofason]

Consider the verses:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
(John 1:1)

What if in the beginning the Word was God (past tense)?
And this Word of God that was God was there in the beginning with God.
"The same was in the beginning with God."
(John 1:2)

And that all things were made by him, and that without him was not anything made that was made?
"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
(John 1:3)

But because of our sin and need of redemption, God made His Word a little lower than the angels and crowned him with glory and honor and did set him over the works of his hands?
"Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:"
(Hebrews 2:7)
Because God so loved the world.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
(John 3:16)
What if Jesus is that lowered state of God's Word that was God, but is God no longer, who came down to earth to be a man without sin in order to pay the price for the sins of the whole world?

It is indeed a high price to pay if Jesus had given up His Godhood for us. Yeah though he might be risen, his is not a God, but the perfect example for us.

 

[Sonofason]

There are many reasons why I believe Jesus is God. I do not believe Jesus is God because of that one scripture.

I understand.

 

[Yes]

Consider the verses:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
(John 1:1)

What if in the beginning the Word was God (past tense)?
And this Word of God that was God was there in the beginning with God.
"The same was in the beginning with God."
(John 1:2)

And that all things were made by him, and that without him was not anything made that was made?
"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
(John 1:3)

But because of our sin and need of redemption, God made His Word a little lower than the angels and crowned him with glory and honor and did set him over the works of his hands?
"Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:"
(Hebrews 2:7)
Because God so loved the world.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
(John 3:16)
What if Jesus is that lowered state of God's Word that was God, but is God no longer, who came down to earth to be a man without sin in order to pay the price for the sins of the whole world?

It is indeed a high price to pay if Jesus had given up His Godhood for us. Yeah though he might be risen, his is not a God, but the perfect example for us.

I believe Jesus is God.

When Jesus saved me and gave me his Spirit...the Holy Spirit, which we receive when we are saved...I come to realize that I did not have three different Spirits from Jesus living inside me, and if I did not have three different Spirits, then there can be no other realization than that they are the same.

 

[Yes]

What are you talking about--LISTEN.
Gods word teaches --Jesus--the one sent forth( from heaven by the Father) Gods appointed king( Daniel 7:13-15)( ancient of days= God-- the appointed one is not, he has to gain entrance to see God.in that passage) was made--lower than the angels as a Mortal--they did not bow to a God in worship to a Mortal--They bowed to their king in obeisance to a mortal.
A misleading error( worship to a mortal) to fit the non existent trinity god formed at the councils of Catholicism.

Jesus was always God, the Word of God. God speaking in the Old Testament...it was God's Word speaking, it was Jesus.

 

[Sonofason]

I believe Jesus is God.

When Jesus saved me and gave me his Spirit...the Holy Spirit, which we receive when we are saved...I come to realize that I did not have three different Spirits from Jesus living inside me, and if I did not have three different Spirits, then there can be no other realization than that they are the same.

For all practical purposes, I believe Jesus is, or maybe even was God. But I do not believe that Jesus is the Father.

 

[Yes]

For all practical purposes, I believe Jesus is, or maybe even was God. But I do not believe that Jesus is the Father.

Since you are a deep thinker, I think that you will understand what I am saying...you believe that Jesus is God, and I do too. Since the Bible says there is ONLY ONE GOD, and that He is the Father...then Jesus, who is God, must also be the Father.


1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

 

[Yes]

Jesus is the Father.

John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Jesus is the Rock, and the Rock Fathered us. See Deuteronomy 32:18. You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.

1 Corinthians 10:4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

Jesus says those who overcome will be his CHILDREN. See Revelation 21:7. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.

Jesus says when you SEE him, you have SEEN the Father. See John 14:7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

John 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

 

[Yes]

Since when we SEE Jesus, we can say, "I see the Father"...and since when Jesus comes to us as a parent and we are not left as orphans...and since he fathered us and gave us life, and since Jesus SAYS we will be his children...why is any one against saying he is the same as God the Father?

 

[Sonofason]

Since you are a deep thinker, I think that you will understand what I am saying...you believe that Jesus is God, and I do too. Since the Bible says there is ONLY ONE GOD, and that He is the Father...then Jesus, who is God, must also be the Father.


1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

If I were talking to someone on the phone, and you were standing close by, close enough to hear the person on the other end of the phone.
You might ask, "Who is that?"
I might say, "It's John"
You might say, OH, I thought that was John.
But you didn't see John. All you heard was his voice.
A voice of a man is not necessarily the man.
But if he is an honest man, that voice so represents the man, that we most assuredly can call the voice of an honest man, the man.
And that is because the voice of an honest man contains the essence, and compassion, the conviction, the will, the desires, etc. of the man.
The voice of an honest man. You can trust the voice of an honest man just as much as you can trust the man.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

[Yes]

If I were talking to someone on the phone, and you were standing close by, close enough to hear the person on the other end of the phone.
You might ask, "Who is that?"
I might say, "It's John"
You might say, OH, I thought that was John.
But you didn't see John. All you heard was his voice.
A voice of a man is not necessarily the man.
But if he is an honest man, that voice so represents the man, that we most assuredly can call the voice of an honest man, the man.
And that is because the voice of an honest man contains the essence, and compassion, the conviction, the will, the desires, etc. of the man.
The voice of an honest man. You can trust the voice of an honest man just as much as you can trust the man.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jesus says when we see him, we have seen the Father.
Jesus says we will be his children.
That is Jesus speaking about himself and us.

 

[Sonofason]

Jesus is the Father.

John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Jesus is the Rock, and the Rock Fathered us. See Deuteronomy 32:18. You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.

1 Corinthians 10:4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

Jesus says those who overcome will be his CHILDREN. See Revelation 21:7. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.

Jesus says when you SEE him, you have SEEN the Father. See John 14:7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

John 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Yes, I'm going to have to fold. I read these verses and I can see it going both ways. I read other scripture, and I see a rapture of the church. I read it again, and I don't. It's all a great mystery to me, and I have little hope of understanding it all. I'm trying. I'm really trying to understand. This I know, whether I understand it or not, the entire Bible is 100% true. I hope knowing that counts for something.

 

[Sonofason]

Since when we SEE Jesus, we can say, "I see the Father"...and since when Jesus comes to us as a parent and we are not left as orphans...and since he fathered us and gave us life, and since Jesus SAYS we will be his children...why is any one against saying he is the same as God the Father?

Maybe I asked you this already, but why when Jesus was on the cross did he say "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do?" Why not just forgive them. Why make a plea to the Father on their behalf?

 

[Yes]

Yes, I'm going to have to fold. I read these verses and I can see it going both ways. I read other scripture, and I see a rapture of the church. I read it again, and I don't. It's all a great mystery to me, and I have little hope of understanding it all. I'm trying. I'm really trying to understand. This I know, whether I understand it or not, the entire Bible is 100% true. I hope knowing that counts for something.

There is just no way I can think of Jesus as being different and separate from God, as trinitarians teach, and as those who say Jesus is not God.
Since Jesus himself is living inside me, and since the Father is living inside me, but I am only given one Spirit...then they must be One and the same.