The Trinity

[Yes]

Maybe I asked you this already, but why when Jesus was on the cross did he say "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do?" Why not just forgive them. Why make a plea to the Father on their behalf?

You did already ask me that. When God came to earth as a Son of Man, there was still God invisible living in unapproachable light in heaven. There are three, and the three are One and the same.

 

[Sonofason]

There is just no way I can think of Jesus as being different and separate from God, as trinitarians teach, and as those who say Jesus is not God.
Since Jesus himself is living inside me, and since the Father is living inside me, but I am only given one Spirit...then they must be One and the same.

And that's the trouble with our conversation here. I would never want to convince you that Jesus is not God. First of all, I'm not sure He isn't. I just see a lot of stuff conflicting in my own brain, and I'm dealing with that in an open forum. Maybe that's not a good idea for me to do. I see Jesus as definitely having been God. I see Jesus as still having that same status with God. I see God giving Jesus even the authority of God. Thus, if I were you, I wouldn't change a thing, and just let me think out loud. Don't listen to a word I say. Just correct me when you think I'm wrong.

 

[Sonofason]

You did already ask me that. When God came to earth as a Son of Man, there was still God invisible living in unapproachable light in heaven. There are three, and the three are One and the same.

Well, I think that's where we're at. For some reason, I was thinking that you did not believe in the trinity. But I see now that you actually do. I had thought that you were suggesting no trinity that God is exactly Jesus, and that Jesus is exactly the Holy Spirit. I can easily accept the trinity. I can't accept all three being the exact same entity in every aspect. And I cannot see them being three separate beings, like three separate Gods.

I still think then that we're really on the same page.

 

[Yes]

And that's the trouble with our conversation here. I would never want to convince you that Jesus is not God. First of all, I'm not sure He isn't. I just see a lot of stuff conflicting in my own brain, and I'm dealing with that in an open forum. Maybe that's not a good idea for me to do. I see Jesus as definitely having been God. I see Jesus as still having that same status with God. I see God giving Jesus even the authority of God. Thus, if I were you, I wouldn't change a thing, and just let me think out loud. Don't listen to a word I say. Just correct me when you think I'm wrong.

No problem. I am enjoying our discussion.

 

[Yes]

Well, I think that's where we're at. For some reason, I was thinking that you did not believe in the trinity. But I see now that you actually do. I had thought that you were suggesting no trinity that God is exactly Jesus, and that Jesus is exactly the Holy Spirit. I can easily accept the trinity. I can't accept all three being the exact same entity in every aspect. And I cannot see them being three separate beings, like three separate Gods.

I still think then that we're really on the same page.

See, the trinitarians say that Jesus is God, but they also say Jesus is not the Father and not the Holy Spirit.
Therefore, since they say that God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit are separate, different, and distinct....that would make three separate and different gods. However, God says that He is One.

 

[Sonofason]

No problem. I am enjoying our discussion.

Well, that's good, because so am I.

 

[katiemygirl]

Yes, it appears that God is our Savior. And because God's Son Jesus submitted willingly to His Father's will, Jesus is our Savior as well. Without Jesus, God's will would not have been accomplished. God the Father would have had to find another way.


I have to admit I could be reading this wrong. That verse, as I'm reading it, as interpreted by Strong's, seems to be saying that Jesus is the glory of our great God and Savior, and that the name of that glory is Jesus Christ.


It does't appear so to me. It seems to be suggesting that Jesus is God's glory.


Honestly, I'm not sure about all this. It could even be saying that God is Jesus, and that we're not going to see either of them, but will see the Glory of them. Wow, very confusing to me.


Yes but that could be the glory, not the savior, or saviors. We perhaps could be looking for the glory of the savior who is God and Jesus Christ, or we could be looking for the glory of God which is the second coming of Jesus Christ. I'm twisted. There's something wrong with me. I can't understand the English language anymore.


Well, perhaps because they are one in the same. Or perhaps because God is the Savior because He sacrificed His Son for us. Is the Lamb the savior, or is the one who provided the Lamb the Savior?

I appreciate your honesty and willingness to reconsider what the verse is saying. I have had to do the same on more than one occasion.

The best thing any of us can do is pray, asking the Holy Spirit to teachus and guide us to His truth.

I cannot begin to tell you how many times I get stumped on a passage and what it is talking about. When that happens I pray. Sometimes the explanation comes within a short time. Other times, I may have to wait. But ALWAYS, I receive understanding.

I love those moments when I get it. I know the Holy Spirit is working in me.

 

[katiemygirl]

Yes, I'm going to have to fold. I read these verses and I can see it going both ways. I read other scripture, and I see a rapture of the church. I read it again, and I don't. It's all a great mystery to me, and I have little hope of understanding it all. I'm trying. I'm really trying to understand. This I know, whether I understand it or not, the entire Bible is 100% true. I hope knowing that counts for something.

None of us understands it all, and we never will. The important thing is that you continue to try. God will surely bless you for that.

You make my heart happy when you say the Bible is 100% true. I believe that as well, and I also believe that kind of thinking counts for plenty in the eyes of God. He promised to preserve His word forever. God doesn't lie.

 

[kjw47]

Jesus says when we see him, we have seen the Father.
Jesus says we will be his children.
That is Jesus speaking about himself and us.

twisting constantly are your teachers.

Facts--- Jesus is the--IMAGE------ John 5:30) means lives 24/7 showing the Fathers will, lives 24/7 doing the Fathers will = image

the --IMAGE-- is not the original, not the real deal, an --IMAGE--

that is how the Father is seen--Jesus prayed to his Father ( still in heaven) while here on earth--This would be pretty insane if Jesus were the Father.

 

[katiemygirl]

twisting constantly are your teachers.

Facts--- Jesus is the--IMAGE------ John 5:30) means lives 24/7 showing the Fathers will, lives 24/7 doing the Fathers will = image

the --IMAGE-- is not the original, not the real deal, an --IMAGE--

that is how the Father is seen--Jesus prayed to his Father ( still in heaven) while here on earth--This would be pretty insane if Jesus were the Father.

You seem to think that because your Watchtower Organization is your teacher, that everyone else must have these kinds of teachers as well.

I can't speak for anyone else, but my teacher is the Holy Spirit. I do not rely on men to teach me. I am always happy to hear their thoughts, but in the end, my study of the Scriptures, and my reliance upon the Holy Spirit is how I learn. I pray constantly for guidance and understanding. I used to rely on the teachings of men, but thank God, I left that false religion with it's grand leader who claims to speak for God.

Your posts are very hard to understand. You make statements, but never explain them. Quite frankly, they make no sense most of the time.

You NEVER respond to points other people make. It would be nice if you did. That way we could have a good dialogue.

The word IMAGE is not in John 5:30.

"By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me."



Katie

 

[katiemygirl]

KJW47

How is it your organization claims its NWT to be 100% reliable, yet it was translated from corrupt manuscripts? If YHWH was removed from over 13,000 manuscripts, then that makes all of the manuscripts corrupt. Doesn't that make your NWT corrupt as well?

You do realize that I could claim that "trinity" was removed from the thousands of manuscripts also. That doesn't make it true, does it? No, of course not. The claim is ridiculous! It cannot be proven. Neither can it be proven that YHWH was removed from over 13,000 Greek manuscripts.

My goodness, but that's a big pill to swallow, isn't it? All I can say is that had to be the most grand conspiracy EVER!.

 

[moorea944]

twisting constantly are your teachers.

Facts--- Jesus is the--IMAGE------ John 5:30) means lives 24/7 showing the Fathers will, lives 24/7 doing the Fathers will = image

the --IMAGE-- is not the original, not the real deal, an --IMAGE--

that is how the Father is seen--Jesus prayed to his Father ( still in heaven) while here on earth--This would be pretty insane if Jesus were the Father.

I totally agree.

The flesh nature of the Messiah is stressed throught scripture. It is not a disguise. It is not a deceit or false doctrine. Although Jesus was the center point of the Creator's plan and intended from the beginning, Jesus did not exist as a living sentient being until he was born of Mary. The human nature (flesh nature) of Christ is absolutely essential for his role, his victory and the path he has created for other to follow.

Deut 18v15-18, Moses addresses the nation of Israel before his death about the coming Messiah. This prophecy is directly quoted of Jesus in Acts 3v22.

We read of the promise that God would "raise up" (not desend) a prophet.

Romans 1v1-3, ....... Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh. Paul is not telling people about a triune God. Or that Jesus is God.
Psalm 89v19 and verses 26-33 of this Psalm clearly confirm verse 19 should be understood in reference to the Messiah. Here the Messiah is chosen "out of the people". We read that God will "make him" His firtborn.

1 Cor. 15v21-22 We are cautioned to understand that the resurrection came by man.

Hebrews 2v16-17. Jesus was made like his brethren in every respect. Once again, Jesus had an origin. He was made (not re-made)

2 John 1 "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."

Jesus is the co-inheritor of God with us. One cannot inherit himself, as would be the case if we accept the concept of the trinity. And he also needed salvation.


"I and my Father are one". I totally agree on that one too!! Jesus is not saying he is God. He is saying that he is one with the Father. He thinks like his father would. He represents his Father. Does his Father's will perfectly. They work together perfectly. They are in sync together. Perfect manifestation!! God manifesting in His son. How many times does the bible tell us that God works "through" Jesus? Didn't Jesus tell us that he could do nothing "without" the Father? And that is supposed to be a God saying that? Wow....

John 17v3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

 

[Yes]

twisting constantly are your teachers.

Wow. What did you say to me?

Facts--- Jesus is the--IMAGE------ John 5:30) means lives 24/7 showing the Fathers will, lives 24/7 doing the Fathers will = image

the --IMAGE-- is not the original, not the real deal, an --IMAGE--

that is how the Father is seen--Jesus prayed to his Father ( still in heaven) while here on earth--This would be pretty insane if Jesus were the Father.

You are badly mistaken. Jesus is God the Father made visible. You are a promoter of the Catholics three-headed god.

If Jesus is God, and he is, then he is also the Father, because there is ONLY ONE GOD THE FATHER.

Go study harder and watch your tongue.

 

[Yes]

I totally agree.

The flesh nature of the Messiah is stressed throught scripture. It is not a disguise. It is not a deceit or false doctrine. Although Jesus was the center point of the Creator's plan and intended from the beginning, Jesus did not exist as a living sentient being until he was born of Mary. The human nature (flesh nature) of Christ is absolutely essential for his role, his victory and the path he has created for other to follow.

Deut 18v15-18, Moses addresses the nation of Israel before his death about the coming Messiah. This prophecy is directly quoted of Jesus in Acts 3v22.

We read of the promise that God would "raise up" (not desend) a prophet.

Romans 1v1-3, ....... Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh. Paul is not telling people about a triune God. Or that Jesus is God.
Psalm 89v19 and verses 26-33 of this Psalm clearly confirm verse 19 should be understood in reference to the Messiah. Here the Messiah is chosen "out of the people". We read that God will "make him" His firtborn.

1 Cor. 15v21-22 We are cautioned to understand that the resurrection came by man.

Hebrews 2v16-17. Jesus was made like his brethren in every respect. Once again, Jesus had an origin. He was made (not re-made)

2 John 1 "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."

Jesus is the co-inheritor of God with us. One cannot inherit himself, as would be the case if we accept the concept of the trinity. And he also needed salvation.


"I and my Father are one". I totally agree on that one too!! Jesus is not saying he is God. He is saying that he is one with the Father. He thinks like his father would. He represents his Father. Does his Father's will perfectly. They work together perfectly. They are in sync together. Perfect manifestation!! God manifesting in His son. How many times does the bible tell us that God works "through" Jesus? Didn't Jesus tell us that he could do nothing "without" the Father? And that is supposed to be a God saying that? Wow....

John 17v3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

When you see me you have seen the Father. How can you say show us the Father?

What don't you get about that?

 

[moorea944]

When you see me you have seen the Father. How can you say show us the Father?

What don't you get about that?

I do get it.... I just explained it in Post #3395. What makes you think that I dont get it?.....

 

[Yes]

Jesus was worshipped.

Only God is to be worshipped.

Jesus is worshiped

Matthew 2:2 - "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east, and have come to worship Him."

Matthew 2:11 - "And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell down and worshiped Him; and opening their treasures they presented to Him gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh."

Matthew 14:33 - "And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "You are certainly God’s Son!"

Matthew 28:9 - "And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him."

John 9:35-38 - "Jesus heard that they had put him out; and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" 36 He answered and said, "And who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?" 37 Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you." 38 And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him."

Hebrews 1:6 - "And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, 'And let all the angels of God worship Him.'"

Luke 17:16 He threw himself at Jesus' feet and thanked him--and he was a Samaritan


Now read this:

Luke 4:8 Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'"

Revelation 19:10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Don't do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus."

No one in the Bible was ever commanded not to worship Jesus. We are told to worship God alone. Jesus is God made visible.

If you do not believe that Jesus is God, yet you worship Jesus, you have still made for yourself a three-headed God, just as the trinitarians have done.

 

[moorea944]

Wow. What did you say to me?



You are badly mistaken. Jesus is God the Father made visible. You are a promoter of the Catholics three-headed god.

If Jesus is God, and he is, then he is also the Father, because there is ONLY ONE GOD THE FATHER.

Go study harder and watch your tongue.

Ok, I'm trying to understand what you just said.... Jesus is God, he is also the father. Ok, now we have two people. Then you said, there is only one God the Father. What? I'm trying so hard to figure out your words. Not sure if you really understand what your writting. So two people are one, but only one God. But only... one.. ummm. What is it that your saying?

 

[moorea944]

Jesus was worshipped.

Only God is to be worshipped.

Jesus is worshiped

Matthew 2:2 - "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east, and have come to worship Him."

Matthew 2:11 - "And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell down and worshiped Him; and opening their treasures they presented to Him gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh."

Matthew 14:33 - "And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "You are certainly God’s Son!"

Matthew 28:9 - "And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him."

John 9:35-38 - "Jesus heard that they had put him out; and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" 36 He answered and said, "And who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?" 37 Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you." 38 And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him."

Hebrews 1:6 - "And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, 'And let all the angels of God worship Him.'"

Luke 17:16 He threw himself at Jesus' feet and thanked him--and he was a Samaritan


Now read this:

Luke 4:8 Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'"

Revelation 19:10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Don't do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus."

No one in the Bible was ever commanded not to worship Jesus. We are told to worship God alone. Jesus is God made visible.

If you do not believe that Jesus is God, yet you worship Jesus, you have still made for yourself a three-headed God, just as the trinitarians have done.

Jesus is worshipped to the Glor of the Father. He is not worshipped as God Himself.

 

[moorea944]

Opps, meant "Glory" of the Father.

 

[Yes]

Jesus is worshipped to the Glor of the Father. He is not worshipped as God Himself.

We are to WORSHIP GOD ALONE.
Since we worship Jesus, but you say he is not God---you have sinned by worshiping another.