The Trinity

[Sonofason]

Jesus is not worshipped as God. That's my point. He is not worshipped as the creator and Father. If someone worshipped him in the bible, which some did, it was more as a King or leader or Messiah, that type of thing. That's all.

And yes, Jesus is the word of God. But what is John 1 telling us. It is talking about God, not Jesus in the first few verses. It starts to talk about Jesus in verse 14! Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. He is the Word of God man flesh.

Wrong, Jesus was the Word spoken of in verses 1 and 2 of the Gospel of John.

From verse 2 we see that the Word was in the beginning with God.
In verse 3 we see that all things were made by him; and that without him was not any thing made that was made.
From verse 4 we see that in him was life, and that life was the light of men.
In verses 6 and 7 we see that John the Baptist was sent by God as witness, to bear witness of this Light, that was the word that became flesh. that all men through him might believe.
Verse 8 tells us that John the Baptist was not that light, but was sent to bear witness to the light.

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."
(John 1:15-17)

There is no question that Jesus was the Word, that He was with God, and that He was God.

 

[JayJayDee]

Wrong, Jesus was the Word spoken of in verses 1 and 2 of the Gospel of John.

From verse 2 we see that the Word was in the beginning with God.
In verse 3 we see that all things were made by him; and that without him was not any thing made that was made.
From verse 4 we see that in him was life, and that life was the light of men.
In verses 6 and 7 we see that John the Baptist was sent by God as witness, to bear witness of this Light, that was the word that became flesh. that all men through him might believe.
Verse 8 tells us that John the Baptist was not that light, but was sent to bear witness to the light.

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."
(John 1:15-17)

There is no question that Jesus was the Word, that He was with God, and that He was God.

And John 1:18 simply states that "No one has seen God at any time"....kinda undoes the whole argument doesn't it?

John then goes on to say..."the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." (NASB)

Now, for the folks who like to stick to the KJV, something interesting emerges....

This verse is translated..."No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him"
Why would the translators substitute the word "son" for "god" in this verse? Could it have been because they were uncomfortable with the idea of God being "begotten"?

If they translated verse 18 as "the son" then John 1:1 should have been translated the same way....."And the Word was the son" who was "with" his Father "in the beginning. An eternal being has no beginning, but Jesus is called ".....the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."

"Firstborn" might be a clue.... When we have a firstborn.....it is an offspring of ourselves.

It was the Word, the "firstborn" son of God who became flesh, not Almighty God.

When we have a firm Biblical doctrine, no other scripture fights with it. Many scriptures fight with the trinity.

 

[Yes]

Jesus was worshiped<<< Being worshipped and accepting that worship are two different things.

Jesus did not stop anyone from worshiping him.

We are told Jesus did not accept praises/glory from people (Jn 5:41). In this same chapter he explains he does and says only as the Father guides him, and that if he were to testify of himself, his testimony would not be true.
Jesus told people time again they were WRONG for trying to worship him.
Jesus was speaking as a man in the flesh<<< So God denied Himself?

Jesus explains that he cares what the Father thinks of him, not men...BECAUSE THE MEN HE WAS SPEAKING TO did not want to come to him for salvation and they did not love God.

We too like it when others love us and think highly of us...but when they do not, we are not to care about that, for we are to only care about what God thinks of us.

You are fighting against the scriptures, because the scriptures say Jesus was worshiped, and the scriptures say EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW BEFORE JESUS.

.

I do understand scripture. Jesus was saying only God was good because people were trying to glorify him, and he had to correct them yet again.

Are you trying to say Jesus was not good? You do not understand the scriptures. It is ignorant for you to say Jesus was saying he was not good.

 

[Yes]

What many of us do not get, is not all the words put on Jesus' lips were actually stated by Jesus in his lifetime. What we have in many instances is not the exact words spoken by Jesus while on earth, the historical Jesus, but along with the memories of Jesus
words and deeds is a deeper understanding in the light of resurrection faith, not possible before.

I am not sure of what you are saying. Would you mind explaining it more to me?

 

[Yes]

Ok, a couple of things here are wrong. Jesus says that no one is good, except the Father, because he is talking about his sin nature.

The Bible says he was without sin. The only time Jesus was tempted was in the desert.
You said Jesus is not good. How is it you do not find anything wrong with saying that. Doesn't that make you think that maybe it is you who does not understand the scripture?

Remember that the bible tells us that Christ was like us, same nature as us too. Jesus was a good person, but he's not talking about that.

You just said that Jesus said he was not good. You are contradicting yourself.

[Because Jesus is God come as a Son of Man ]
Can you show us a verse that actually says that?

[I told you that Jesus calls himself the exact names that God calls himself.]
Can you show us a verse that actually says that? An actual verse that shows Jesus telling everyone he is Yahweh! He never did once. He always glorified God in everything he did.

I already gave you the scriptures but you reject them.

 

[Sonofason]

And John 1:18 simply states that "No one has seen God at any time"....kinda undoes the whole argument doesn't it?

John then goes on to say..."the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." (NASB)

Now, for the folks who like to stick to the KJV, something interesting emerges....

This verse is translated..."No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him"
Why would the translators substitute the word "son" for "god" in this verse? Could it have been because they were uncomfortable with the idea of God being "begotten"?

If they translated verse 18 as "the son" then John 1:1 should have been translated the same way....."And the Word was the son" who was "with" his Father "in the beginning. An eternal being has no beginning, but Jesus is called ".....the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."

"Firstborn" might be a clue.... When we have a firstborn.....it is an offspring of ourselves.

It was the Word, the "firstborn" son of God who became flesh, not Almighty God.

When we have a firm Biblical doctrine, no other scripture fights with it. Many scriptures fight with the trinity.

Well, I don't know. The Bible says Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning. It doesn't say He was God while He was here in the flesh. Here, He was just a man.

 

[JayJayDee]

Well, I don't know. The Bible says Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning. It doesn't say He was God while He was here in the flesh. Here, He was just a man.

Have you read John 1:1 in a Greek Interlinear?

It reads literally...."in the beginning was the word and the word was with the god (ho theos) and the word was god. (theos)

Since there were no capital letters in Greek to indicate which "god" (theos) was meant by the term (which was a title given to various ones in power, including angels and humans and false gods) the definite article "ho" (the) is used to indicate when Almighty God was spoken about. So in that verse there are two "gods" (mighty ones) mentioned. Only one is "THE God".

So John 1:1 is not saying that Jesus is God, because he, as the Word, was "with the God" but he was not "the God". "The God" did not become flesh. His son is an "only begotten god" according to John 1:18.

Understanding the Greek and usage of the title "god" helps to straighten things out.

The titles "Lord" and "god" are not exclusive to the Almighty.

 

[moorea944]

The Bible says he was without sin. The only time Jesus was tempted was in the desert.
You said Jesus is not good. How is it you do not find anything wrong with saying that. Doesn't that make you think that maybe it is you who does not understand the scripture?


You just said that Jesus said he was not good. You are contradicting yourself.


I already gave you the scriptures but you reject them.

I never said that Jesus was not good. I said that Jesus said that the only one that is good is the Father. Jesus was good. Who would think that he wasnt good? I was just saying that he was saying that because he wasnt talking about his charactor or person, he was talking about his nature. That's all.

 

[moorea944]

Wrong, Jesus was the Word spoken of in verses 1 and 2 of the Gospel of John.

From verse 2 we see that the Word was in the beginning with God.
In verse 3 we see that all things were made by him; and that without him was not any thing made that was made.
From verse 4 we see that in him was life, and that life was the light of men.
In verses 6 and 7 we see that John the Baptist was sent by God as witness, to bear witness of this Light, that was the word that became flesh. that all men through him might believe.
Verse 8 tells us that John the Baptist was not that light, but was sent to bear witness to the light.

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."
(John 1:15-17)

There is no question that Jesus was the Word, that He was with God, and that He was God.

Yes, there is.. Jesus is the Word, but not in those few verses. 14+ , yes. You believe in a trinitarian God, so your making Jesus there at creation.

 

[Muffled]

The trinity is not in our bible, Jesus is not God. People bring their beliefs into the bible. Trintiy started around 324AD with Consintine and the Bishops of the Western Empire. Trinity is false doctrine and totally degrades our Creator. And I can prove it. God is the God of Jesus. God is the Father of Jesus. God is greater than Jesus. Very simple!!![/QUOTE]

I believe none of this is true.

I don't believe you can.

I believe this proves Jesus is God in the flesh and it is simple as you say.

 

[Muffled]

A firstborn is the oldest child in the family. Thus, I believe Jesus did have a beginning, a birth as it were, as God's only begotten Son. (John 3:16) if you are the beginning of something, you are part of it. As Rev. 3:14 says, he was "the beginning of the creation by God."

I beleive this is only half true. The body has a beginning but the Spirit of God residing in Jesus is eternal.

I believe this is a logical fallacy. Are you saying that God is part of creation because He is the creator? I see no way for that to be. The fallacy is reasoning that one thing is a member of a group by dint of creating that group generalizing from association to membership or from the detail to the whole.

 

[Muffled]

The trinity doctrine is not accurate.
The trinity doctrine says there are three and that the three are different.
There are three, but the three are One and the same.

There are differences. The Father is not in a body, God in a body is Jesus. God in us is the Paraclete. It is true that they are not innately different but in cognizant recognition they are different.

 

[Sonofason]

Yes, there is.. Jesus is the Word, but not in those few verses. 14+ , yes. You believe in a trinitarian God, so your making Jesus there at creation.

John was clear, the Word spoken of in verses 1-3 of his gospel is the same entity spoken of in verses 14+.

 

[pearl]

I am not sure of what you are saying. Would you mind explaining it more to me?

During Jesus' lifetime, his disciples did not understand the full meaning of Jesus as is evident from the account of the disciples
on the Emmaus road. Their leader had been crucified as a criminal, from a human viewpoint Jesus is a failure and his movement
is dead. Pentecost finds a group of frightened men gathered back in Jerusalem for the required Jewish holyday. Not until they receive the Holy Spirit do they begin to understand and begin to preach the resurrected Christ. But there is an eschatological, apocalyptic understanding, Jesus' return as promised was believed to be eminent, in their lifetime. But the apostles were dying off and it became apparent that Jesus' second coming would not be in their lifetime. It is not the apostles, but the evangelists following after them who wrote the Gospels to address not only the churches the apostles founded, but for all generations to come.
They did not set out to right a chronological history, or a biography of Jesus, but to hand on the faith testimonies handed down to
them for the benefit of the churches. In compiling a narrative of the things that concerned Jesus they were mindful of the need of
the church communities they were addressing. For our understanding today it is important to seek out the intended meaning of the
evangelist in his particular narration. The truth of the story is not at all affected by the fact that the evangelists express his sayings
not literally but differently while preserving their sense. With the guidance of the promised Holy Spirit, there is a growth in the
understanding and purpose of Jesus. This is most evident in comparing the Gospel of Mark, which most think was the first written,
with the Gospel of John, considered by most to be the last. Mark offers no nativity account, Jesus becomes God's son at his baptism. For John there is no nativity account, but Jesus was God's son from eternity.
Getting back to the disciples on the road with the risen Jesus, he is recognized in interpreting Scripture, and in the breaking of
the bread, which had already been the practice in the churches liturgy. First there was church, and then the written Gospels.

Is any of this necessary for faith? No. But is sure helps if one wants to interpret Scripture not for the past, but for the life believers
today in our own lived experience.

 

[Yes]

Well, I don't know. The Bible says Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning. It doesn't say He was God while He was here in the flesh. Here, He was just a man.

That is right, God really did come as a Man.

Romans 1:3 concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,…

 

[Yes]

I never said that Jesus was not good. I said that Jesus said that the only one that is good is the Father. Jesus was good. Who would think that he wasnt good? I was just saying that he was saying that because he wasnt talking about his charactor or person, he was talking about his nature. That's all.

Jesus was all good. Jesus was God come to us in the flesh.

 

[Yes]

There are differences. The Father is not in a body, God in a body is Jesus. God in us is the Paraclete. It is true that they are not innately different but in cognizant recognition they are different.

You are contradicting yourself.

If Jesus is God, and he is, then he is also the Father, for there is only One God and He is the Father.

 

[pearl]

Interestingly, as one reads through the comments and questions concerning the formulation of the Trinity, it becomes apparent
that these are much the same questions the early Christians asked and which ultimately prompted the development of the Trinity. There was no consensus about who Jesus was during his human lifetime, even among those who knew him.
They drew on ideas from both the Jewish religious tradition and the surrounding Hellenistic cultures for the elements to interpret the meaning of Christ in a way that made sense with its religious experience. Words about God are cultural and time conditioned, and are woven in with the lived experiences of the faith community. The early Christians who maintained their Jewish monotheistic roots came to believe that the Trinitarian nature of God was compatible with monotheism. From Christian scripture they remembered that Jesus had a unique relationship with God, whom he called father, that Jesus had promised to be with them even after he was no longer visible to them; and that Jesus had said he would also send his spirit to them and they believed the Spirit did come to them at Pentecost. They were instructed to be baptized in the name of 'the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. From this, over centuries the doctrine of the Trinity, a construct to understand something which resists understanding, slowly came about, first formulated at Nicaea 325 and Developed Constantinople 381.


"For God is thought more truly than can be uttered, and exists more truly than can be thought." Augustine

One could just as easily refer to the Trinity as, Mother, Daughter and Wisdom.

 

[cataway]

the bible does say Jesus is the son of God 42 times . how many times does it call him God ? the answer is real easy

 

[Yes]

the bible does say Jesus is the son of God 42 times . how many times does it call him God ? the answer is real easy

Why do you think Jesus has to be revealed to people?
Some things are just not understood until Jesus reveals himself, and that happens after obedience to his teachings.
See John 14:21.