The Trinity

[pearl]

The in-breaking of the Kingdom is with Jesus, 'the kingdom of God is upon you'. Apocalyptic works are not intended to be taken in a
literalists understanding. "No one knows but God the 'hour'..." There is a need to know the symbolic representation.

 

[katiemygirl]

I see we have something to talk about. to be frank ,you don't know what the kingdom is and what it will do . right now ,we are in Christ's presence . when the time comes there will be things happening that are yet in prophecy. I give you this warning found in the book of revelation 18 :4
Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind.
do you know why and what it means ?

I see a huge problem here. Your interpretation of prophesy is one among thousands. You see Revelation in the future. Others see it as a past event, which culminated in the destruction of Jerusalem. Unless we can claim inspiration, then none of us can really interpret the prophesy. We can only speculate. I believe it is wrong to be dogmatic about Revelation.

I read Revelation, but I don't make claims about its interpretation. I look for the overall message of John's letter, which imho is that in the end God will win over evil. If we remain faithful, no matter how bad things get, we will be rewarded.

Get hold of a concordance, and look up the word kingdom in the rest of the NT. You will soon grasp the the church and the kingdom are used interchangably.

In Matthew 16:18,19, Jesus says to Peter, "I will build My church" and then, "I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven." In one breath He calls it "My church" and in the next "the kingdom of heaven."

A kingdom has a king, subjects, laws and territory. Jesus is our King. He reigns from heaven and posesses all authority. Christians are His subjects. His will is made known by the written words supplied by the Holy Spirit. His territory is earth, where willing subjects are found.

His kingdom is spiritual. It is the church. The church is a spiritual institution. It's not some building where people gather to worship.

How would you explain the following if the kingdom is not here NOW?

13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

Christians are members of the church, the spiritual kingdom, which belongs to Jesus who bled and died for it.

 

[katiemygirl]

I do believe that if someone dies, they have a chance to still live according to God in their spirit.

1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

This would make a good thread topic.

 

[katiemygirl]

How do you figure that? Indoctrination with a false belief is the only way you could come to that conclusion. The Bible does not support that assumption at all.

Jesus had to be Adam's equivalent. A perfect human life had to be offered for a perfect human life to balance the scales of justice. Jesus did not have to be God to provide the ransom price. If God had paid it, with his own life, that would first of all be overkill to the Max, and second of all impossible because God cannot die.

Use your power of reason man.....can mere humans kill God? Seriously?

How many Gods do you believe in anyway? Does Almighty God + Mighty God equal two Gods in your view?

 

[katiemygirl]

you do not yet understand what the kingdom is. you speak as if the kingdom were an emotion .

It is you who does not understand the kingdom. Try, for once, to truly look at another pov. YES quoted Jesus' saying, verbatim, from Luke 17. Maybe you think Jesus didn't understand the kingdom?

 

[Wharton]

and just were would this perfect man come from at that time ?

Forget about another perfect man. The infinite was offended. You need an infinite to atone to the infinite. You need an equal being to atone, not an inferior created being.

 

[pearl]

I see we have something to talk about. to be frank ,you don't know what the kingdom is and what it will do .

Mt 13:11
The disciples approached him and said, "Why do you speak to them in parables?" 11 He said to them in reply, "Because knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been granted to you, but to them it has not been granted. Since a parable is figurative speech that demands reflection for understanding, only those who are prepared to explore its meaning can come to know it. To understand is a gift of God, granted to the disciples but not to the crowds. In Semitic fashion, both the disciples’ understanding and the crowd’s obtuseness are attributed to God.

 

[cataway]

Not one time in the rest of the NT is the thousand years mentioned, nor is the 144,000, yet so many people, including JW's, are dogmatic about these single, solitary verses. Whole doctrines are built upon them, and they have become the focus, rather than the gospel of Jesus Christ

its true the number was not reveled how ever Jesus did mention some thing you may not be aware of . he said
32 “Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom. 33 Sell the things belonging to you and give gifts of mercy. Make purses for yourselves that do not wear out, a never-failing treasure in the heavens, where a thief does not get near nor moth consumes. 34 For where your treasure is, there your hearts will be also.

the apostles that Jesus was speaking to were the first ones ,of the ones ,that would be going to heaven . its clear Jesus all ready had a plan.

 

[moorea944]

its true the number was not reveled how ever Jesus did mention some thing you may not be aware of . he said
32 “Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom. 33 Sell the things belonging to you and give gifts of mercy. Make purses for yourselves that do not wear out, a never-failing treasure in the heavens, where a thief does not get near nor moth consumes. 34 For where your treasure is, there your hearts will be also.

the apostles that Jesus was speaking to were the first ones ,of the ones ,that would be going to heaven . its clear Jesus all ready had a plan.

Apostles didnt believe in heaven going. They believed that they would be resurrected, made immortal and be in the Kingdom that Christ would set up on earth. There is nothing about heaven going in God's plans. It is all on earth. The apostles read the OT manuscripts about this too. Dan 2 for just one. Peter preached about it in Acts 2 that we DONT go to heaven. Zech 9v14, and the LORD will be King over all the earth..
..
So many thing have to happen on earth. David has to be raised to see his throne est. again. Temples have to be built in Jerusalem. We reign with Christ for a thousand years and then he hands over the kingdom to his Father. And God will be King once again. Everything is on earth.

Christ comes to us, we dont go up to him.

 

[cataway]

John 14
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God, exercise faith also in me. 2 In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told you, because I am going my way to prepare a place for you. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be. 4 And where I am going you know the way.”

 

[Yes]

you do not yet understand what the kingdom is. you speak as if the kingdom were an emotion .

What emotion am I causing you to think of?

 

[cataway]

Forget about another perfect man. The infinite was offended. You need an infinite to atone to the infinite. You need an equal being to atone, not an inferior created being.

yep ,and that's why jesus came. he is an equal being to atone for the sin of Adam

 

[Yes]

This would make a good thread topic.

If you start a thread on this, please give me the link.

 

[cataway]

What emotion am I causing you to think of?

the one that comes to mind is ''euphoria''
an exaggerated feeling of physical and mental well-being, especially when not justified by external reality

 

[Yes]

the one that comes to mind is ''euphoria''
an exaggerated feeling of physical and mental well-being, especially when not justified by external reality

What exactly did I say that causes you to think that?
I will say that it is euphoric to be reconciled to God.

God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. See Romans 5:5.

 

[katiemygirl]

its true the number was not reveled how ever Jesus did mention some thing you may not be aware of . he said
32 “Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom. 33 Sell the things belonging to you and give gifts of mercy. Make purses for yourselves that do not wear out, a never-failing treasure in the heavens, where a thief does not get near nor moth consumes. 34 For where your treasure is, there your hearts will be also.

the apostles that Jesus was speaking to were the first ones ,of the ones ,that would be going to heaven . its clear Jesus all ready had a plan.

Yes, I was aware of that verse.

When Jesus came, many were looking for an earthly king and physical kingdom. They were hoping for the kingdom to be restored back to the way it was in the days of Solomon. But Jesus was not what they had hoped He would be. I don't think even the apostles understood Jesus' preaching about the kingdom until the Holy Spirit came upon them at Pentecost. Then their eyes were opened.

Many today are looking for an earthly kingdom, but the kingdom is not physical. It is spiritual. Born again christians are in the kingdom. Jesus reigns over the kingdom from heaven.

 

[Wharton]

yep ,and that's why jesus came. he is an equal being to atone for the sin of Adam

yep ,and that's why jesus came. he is an equal being to atone for the sin of Adam

Once again, the infinite was offended. Where is your infinite equal being to atone for the offense to the infinite? You don't have one so there's no atonement. And BTW, Jews don't do human sacrifice. It has no value. Jesus would know that as a man.

 

[cataway]

Yes, I was aware of that verse.

When Jesus came, many were looking for an earthly king and physical kingdom. They were hoping for the kingdom to be restored back to the way it was in the days of Solomon. But Jesus was not what they had hoped He would be. I don't think even the apostles understood Jesus' preaching about the kingdom until the Holy Spirit came upon them at Pentecost. Then their eyes were opened.

Many today are looking for an earthly kingdom, but the kingdom is not physical. It is spiritual. Born again christians are in the kingdom. Jesus reigns over the kingdom from heaven.

you are somewhat correct . however the kingdom will come to earth and will rule over the whole earth . jesus illustrated how to pray “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. 10 Let your Kingdom come. Let your willk take place, as in heaven, also on earth.''

the kingdom is a real thing

 

[JayJayDee]

It's in your JW indoctrination which fails all logic. I can't help that.

And of course there is no indoctrination on your part.

A: Your logic fails in that you think a perfect man can balance the scales of justice. IF a perfect man was offended in the Garden of Eden, then the sacrifice of a perfect man would balance the scales of justice. But more than a perfect man was offended. God was offended, not a perfect man. The infinite was offended not the finite. You need an infinite man (God/man) for the sacrifice to balance the scales of justice. Logical, huh?

Well, can you tell me where it says that in the Bible? What has "offence" got to do with anything? Adam did not just offend God...he disobeyed a direct command that carried the death penalty, thereby condemning himself and his children to a life of inherited sin and death. His perfect life was lost and along with it, the perfect life he should have passed onto his children. (Rom 5:12) The perfect sacrifice of Jesus paid for what Adam did. A perfect life was offered in exchange for a perfect life.
If you begin with a wrong premise, everything you say after that will be wrong too.

B: If you read scripture carefully, you will see that Jesus committed suicide. "No one takes my life,etc" He goes to Jerusalem knowing that he will be killed. Peter tells him not to go. Jesus calls him Satan. Jesus is on a death mission. That is clear from scripture.

Jesus did not commit suicide. He was martyred...big difference.
Jesus came to give his life, but it was his own people who perpetrated an atrocity and a gross miscarriage of justice in order to bring that about. That is why Jesus could say that 'those who handed him over had greater sin than the ones carrying out the sentence.' (John 19:11) Jesus did not die by his own hand and there was no legal ground to execute him. God did not take his life. Religious pride and hatred killed The son of God.
Jesus knew before he accepted his commission that it had to end in his death, but wicked humans planned it and carried it out. It was pre-meditated, politically manipulated, murder.

You can't do that as a human being as only God holds all of the rights to the time of life and death, not to mention that God does not accept human sacrifice (Abraham and Isaac scenario).

God's law contained the death penalty. Those who were found guilty of murder paid with their own lives. Jesus life was a ransom, which is the price placed on value of that life. In Jesus' case, a perfect life was given in exchange for a perfect life. God did not take Jesus' life and Jesus did not take his own life. Therefore no law of God was broken except by the Jewish religious leaders. For their sin, Jesus said "Gehenna" (not hell) awaited them.

And even if you think a perfect man is proper matter for an acceptable sacrifice, your sacrifice fails because you believe that the body of Jesus went poof after death. Proper form requires the priest to present the sacrifice to God, the Father, which Jesus was in the process of doing when he told Mary Magdalene not to hang on to him as he had not yet ascended to the Father. You have no sacrificial body to present to the Father. What you have is improper matter (human) and improper form (no sacrificial body to present.) Your beliefs leave you with no ransom sacrifice. No redemption.

Well none of that is scriptural, is it? That is pure conjecture based on a faulty understanding of the ransom. Jesus did not ascend to heaven for 40 days after his resurrection. The value of his sacrifice was then presented in the great spiritual temple of which the Most Holy compartment of the physical temple was a type. He was the High Priest entering the heavenly Most Holy to present the value of his blood. Since flesh and blood cannot enter heaven, the presentation was symbolic.

It was prophesied that Jesus body would not see corruption. So his body was not left in the tomb. (Acts 2:22-36)

When the saints die, there is a body in a tomb...no? Yet these ones are said to die the same death and experience the same resurrection as Christ...can you explain that?

Peter said that Jesus was "put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit". As a spirit being, Jesus had to "appear" to his disciples in a body of flesh. Jews were forbidden to communicate with spirits and full physical resurrection was all they knew, so if Jesus' body had still been in the tomb, the disciples would not have understood that he had been raised. Understanding the beliefs of Jesus' Jewish disciples makes this clear.

C: God, as a person, died on the cross. For you to be fully redeemed, all aspects of human life has to be experienced by Jesus, including death. Jesus doesn't have to say he is God. His actions prove he is God. If you believe Jesus is just a man, then he willingly committed suicide and that is an affront to God and is a sin. Your perfect sacrifice is no longer perfect. He's a sinner and your perfect man ransom scenario is destroyed.

Nonsense. Jesus was clearly what he called himself..."the son of God". He never once called himself "God the son" and there is not one mention of "God the Holy Spirit" either. How do you build a foundation doctrine on something that has no foundation in scripture?

 

[katiemygirl]

you are somewhat correct . however the kingdom will come to earth and will rule over the whole earth . jesus illustrated how to pray “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. 10 Let your Kingdom come. Let your willk take place, as in heaven, also on earth.''

the kingdom is a real thing

Well, at least you agree partly.