sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
You've missed that mark.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
The Trinity
- Thread starter Atruthseeker
- Start date
kjv4me2you
Member
This is KJV
(John 10:33 KJV) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God-Elohim.
(John 10:34 KJV) Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
(John 10:35 KJV) If He-YHWH-YaH called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
(John 10:36 KJV) Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
The Jews accused Jesus pf blasphemy saying he was making himself God, if you read Jesus' own words he said "I am the Son of God" and not I am God.
Jesus then accuses them " Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God."
To say Jesus is God is to blaspheme according to Jesus' own words.
Jesus never made himself God but to some Jews by saying you as an individual Jew were the Son of God was to make thyself God. The reason they thought this way is because Israel nationally was called the son of YaH in Exodus 4:22 and so some Jews concluded that know individual Jew could be the son of God since it is the nation Israel that YHWH-YaH called His son even His firstborn.
(Exo 4:22 KJV) And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith YHWH-YaH, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
willyah
kjv4me2you
Member
(Mat 27:52 KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
(Mat 27:53 KJV) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
And who are these saints resurrected to follow the resurrected Last Adam Jesus?.
Whats good for the goose is good for the gander right?
willyah
Last edited:
Ah please, outside the bible? I can reference old Watchtowers that quote bible scripture right in the article stating Jesus had two natures, was divine and needed to be more than a mere man to be a ransom sacrifice.
The original Christianity taught by the son of God is to do the todah in memory of him. Nothing you do, bible reading, preaching, going door to door has any value to God. It's all been done before through the ages prior to and during the arrival of Jesus. Nothing has any value unless you tie those actions to the sacrifice of Jesus. And you have no way of doing that because Jesus is just human. The guys in the late 1800's were on the ball. Unfortunately, the ball has been dropped. And that's why you have the NWT.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
This was not a resurrection. It was an earthquake that threw up corpses that needed to be reburied.
*** w90 9/1 p. 7 ‘Many Bodies of the Holy Ones Were Raised Up’ ***
First, whoever “the holy ones” were, Matthew did not say they were raised up. He said their bodies, or corpses, were. Second, he did not say these bodies came to life. He said they were raised up, and the Greek verb e·gei′ro, meaning to “raise up,” does not always refer to a resurrection. It can, among other things, also mean to “lift out” from a pit or to “get up” from the ground. (Matthew 12:11; 17:7; Luke 1:69) The upheaval at Jesus’ death opened tombs, tossing lifeless bodies into the open. Such occurrences during earthquakes were reported in the second century C.E. by Greek writer Aelius Aristides and more recently, in 1962, in Colombia.
This view of the event harmonizes with Bible teachings. In 1 Corinthians chapter 15, the apostle Paul gives convincing proof of the resurrection, but he completely ignores Matthew 27:52, 53. So do all other Bible writers. (Acts 2:32, 34) The corpses raised up at Jesus’ death could not have come to life in the way Epiphanius thought, for on the third day thereafter, Jesus became “the firstborn from the dead.” (Colossians 1:18) Anointed Christians, also called “holy ones,” were promised a share in the first resurrection during Christ’s presence, not in the first century.—1 Thessalonians 3:13; 4:14-17.
Most Bible commentators have difficulty explaining verse 53, although several of them suggest that verse 52 describes the opening of tombs by the earthquake and the exposing of newly buried corpses. For example, German scholar Theobald Daechsel gives the following translation: “And tombs opened up, and many corpses of saints laying at rest were lifted up.”
Who were those that “entered into the holy city” a considerable time later, namely after Jesus had been resurrected? As seen above, the exposed bodies remained lifeless, so Matthew must refer to persons who visited the tombs and brought news of the event into Jerusalem.
Last edited:
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
The Bible does not teach that we have a conscious spiritual part of us that departs from our body at death. This is a Platonic Greek idea adopted from Hellenism's influence in the early centuries. Do you understand this?
Not even death can "separate us from God's love"....that is an assurance, not of immortal life after death, but of the certainty of God's promises. (Rom 8:35-39)
Ephesians 1:9-14 "He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory."
A "pledge" is given as a promise of something to come. Their inheritance was future.
Raised from death to life. It is a spiritual restoration to life whilst they are still on earth. No one was to go to heaven until Christ's return...you keep ignoring that point. (2 Thess 1:5-10)
This is not the kingdom of heaven. This rulership is the one where they obey the Christ as king of the kingdom whilst they are his disciples, still in the flesh on earth. No one can do anything before the resurrection which does not take place till Christ's return.
This is an example of reading what you want to see in God's word, rather than what it actually says......what does the word "destroy" mean. Look it up.
"Hell" in this verse is "Gehenna" not "hades". Do you know the difference?
You won't if you use a translation that renders both words as "hell". They are very different.
On the contrary, physical death is not permanent...but spiritual death is.
Yes...after their resurrection. Rev 20:6 says that they "will be" kings and priests and rule with Jesus. Revelation was a future event, in fact we are in the outworking of the revelation right now.
Sorry, not true.
The apostle John saw two groups who were saved in the vision that Jesus gave him. One was a limited number (144,000) chosen from the earth and seen in heaven with him, and the other was an unnumbered group (a great multitude) who also attribute salvation to God and the Lamb. (Rev 7:9, 10, 13, 14; 14:1, 3-5)
The second group are identified as survivors of the "great tribulation" that Jesus said would conclude the "end of the age" here on earth. (Matt 24:3, 21) These ones "come out of the great tribulation" just as Noah stepped out of the ark of his salvation onto a cleansed earth.
The Christian scriptures are written to and by those who had the heavenly calling. So what does this prove?
You don't have to be a baby for the devil to hoodwink you.
He has a whole world of professed Christians barking up the wrong tree.
He did it before with the Jews....and Jesus said he would do it again...what makes you think it didn't happen?
Those who make up their own "religion" are just as lost as the people they criticise. Since when was Christianity a one man band? Do you see yourself as some kind of prophet?
Where does it say this exactly?
Well, I believe that you have that a little backwards.....all the "elected/chosen are saved. Big difference.
Only to yourself....does that count?
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
We still believe that Jesus is divine and that he was different to every other human who ever lived apart from Adam.
We don't read old Watchtowers BTW. We have advanced from those thoughts to more clarity as the sacred secret was revealed in more and more detail. Opposers look up old Watchtowers as if they somehow make our current beliefs invalid. We are progressive in our understanding, not stagnated in centuries of falsehood, division and confusion.
Old Watchtowers are history to us...nothing more.
Since we believe that Jesus is who HE said he was, I cannot see how that statement applies. We have never viewed him as "just human". He is the son of God who came down from heaven, so how could he ever be "just human" in anyone's estimations?
Matt 24 was a dual prophesy that applied in a literal sense to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E. and figuratively to "the end of the age" and his second "coming" as Christendom likes to call it. It is really his manifestation. The times when he comes as judge to separate the sheep from the goats.
That means that all that Jesus commanded, including his directive to "go and make disciples of people of all the nations" is taking place right now....but not by people like yourself who see no need.
Jesus said he would be "with" his disciples "all the days until "the end of the age".
We are coming to the end of the present age and only one group are taking it seriously and obediently "doing the will of the Father" (Matt 7:21-23) and preaching about his kingdom "in all the inhabited earth"...something that was to take place before "the end" was to come. (Matt 24:14)
The guys in the late 1800's were the beginning of something so much bigger to come. The light on the path has illuminated the way, getting brighter as the day for God's judgment draws near. (Prov 4:18) Why would God tell us this was to be the case if it were not so?
The "sacred secret" or "mystery" is now almost fully revealed. (Rom 16:25) The kingdom is coming, but not in the way most people think.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
LOL...in whose opinion? Yours? Christendom's? or God's?
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Third party observation.
Yep. The truth is history to you.
Yet he is a human sacrifice???
That statement was given to the eleven ONLY. It does not apply to everyone. You don't get to preach. If you understood the purpose of the apostles, you would know that. Unfortunately, you are an unauthorized preacher. The wolves that Jesus spoke about.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
He was the only human who could pay the ransom. Why do you think he came to die for us? He was human and his life was given in sacrifice.
What else would you call it?
moorea944
Well-Known Member
I believe that Christ was human. He came from heaven, not physically, but came from God. Just like John. Bible says that John came from God. We know he wasnt in heaven, but was sent from God into the world, just like Christ. He was sent into the world by God. We also have to look at the manor in the wilderness. That also came from God. It wasnt in heaven and floated down to earth. It appeared on the ground.
Scripture tells us that Christ was born, and he was like us. Same nature. Made like his brethren. David is told that the messiah would come from him. Isaiah was told that he would be like us too. He suffered, cried, was in pain, tempted and died. That is a human, not a God. He was flesh and blood. He also had to be the "son of man". He had to be born of a women. It had to be someone like us would could overcome sin in the flesh or sin nature. Could Jesus have sinned if he wanted to? Of course, but he chose not to. And the way he could do that was, that God was working "through" Jesus, his son. Because no man left unto himself, could have done what Jesus did. That is why he had to be the Son of God and the son of man. He was like us in all ways. Except God was his Father.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
Oh dear...the great commission given to all of Jesus' disciples and you wriggle out of it by claiming that it only applied to the 11 faithful apostles....sorry, that's very convenient but I'm afraid it doesn't wash.
The commission was to "preach the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations" (Matt 24:14)....so is this what the 11 did?
"Now after this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come." (Luke 10:1)
He sent 70 "others" out to preach "in pairs". Is 70 the 11?
Matt 9:35-36...."Jesus was going through all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.
Seeing the people, He felt compassion for them, because they were distressed and dispirited like sheep without a shepherd. 37 Then He said to His disciples, The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. 38 Therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into His harvest.”
Just the 11? I think you are kidding yourself.
This commission is for all those who claim to be Jesus disciples. It was to be carried on long after the 11 died....and in fact up until Christ was to come again. John 14:12..."Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father"
So it was "believers" who would carry on his work after he returned to heaven. If you are a believer, then you have the obligation to preach about God's kingdom....it was not a suggestion, it was a command. (Matt 28:19, 20)
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
Need to reread the last few verses of the Good News According to Matthew.
"Jesus approached and spoke to [the 11 disciples], saying: 'All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.'" - Matthew 28:17-20
Note first Jesus told them to make other disciples. Note that he also told them to teach these new ones to observe ALL the things he commanded them to do.
Was not the directive to preach also a command? The Christian congregation is thus properly a community of preachers. Our baptism ordains us as ministers.
(LOL. I knew I was getting interrupted too much. JayJayDee
You beat me to it. )
Last edited:
He was the only human who could pay the ransom. Why do you think he came to die for us? He was human and his life was given in sacrifice.
What else would you call it?
He was the only human who could pay the ransom. Why do you think he came to die for us? He was human and his life was given in sacrifice.
What else would you call it?
You stated "We have never viewed him as "just human".' Now you change your mind stating he was human. I guess the light is shining brighter via your posts.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
None so blind, apparently.
When did I change my mind. Olympic Gold again ! "just human" is not the same as "human", as most people who read my posts would understand. I have already explained but you choose to ignore the meat of the conversation and chase the red herrings....whatever.
Are you capable of intelligently answering any questions or are you just here to rubbish JW's?
No. Actually you need to understand the Jewish teaching method. Go read the bible. Jesus starts when he is 30 years old. That's the age for a teacher with authority. He was a scriptural genius at 12 in the temple but had to wait until he was 30 years old as stated in scripture. He is not "baptized" by John as he had no sin and had no need to be baptized and repent.Need to reread the last few verses of the Good News According to Matthew.
"Jesus approached and spoke to [the 11 disciples], saying: 'All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.'" - Matthew 28:17-20
Note first Jesus told them to make other disciples. Note that he also told them to teach these new ones to observe ALL the things he commanded them to do.
Was not the directive to preach also a command? The Christian congregation is thus properly a community of preachers. Our baptism ordains us as ministers.
(LOL. I knew I was getting interrupted too much. JayJayDee
He does, however, need a teacher with authority (John) to confirm him as a new Jewish teacher with authority, which John does along with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Jesus immediately gathers his students (talmidim) to train in his interpretation of scripture-my yoke (his interpretation of scripture) is easy and my burden light. This can be seen in scripture where the statement is made the he (Jesus) teaches with authority and not as the scribes. The people recognize that he is a teacher with authority. Scribes simply repeated another Jewish teacher with authority's interpretation of scripture. BTW, they are the FATHERS Jesus spoke of in scripture. Each had their own interpretation of scripture which was confusing.
Disciples are students. They don't get to offer interpretations of scripture or preach. They are under a teacher with authority. The 70 disciples sent forth were under Jesus. They can teach but not preach.
Etymology[edit]
The term "disciple" is derived from the Koine Greek word mathetes,[1] which means a pupil (of a teacher) or an apprentice (to a master craftsman), coming to English by way of the Latin discipulus meaning a learner while the more common English word is student. A disciple is different from an apostle, which instead means a messenger.[2][3] While a disciple is one who learns from a teacher, an apostle is one sent to deliver those teachings or a message.
The Great Commission installs the 11 as teachers with authority, no one else. That's the purpose of the Apostles. Only they are confirmed as teachers with authority. They would follow the method used by Jesus and confirm other teachers with authority to take their place. That would be called apostolic succession. If Jesus intended to use your JW teaching method, there would be no Apostles. It would be a preaching free for all which is what you have. BTW, if you bother to read Acts, you will read that the people followed the teachings of the Apostles, not Jesus, which supports the method Jesus wanted used.
You have no teacher with authority via apostolic succession in your organization to ensure that what is being preached is correct. The JW flip flops and prophecy errors are glaring examples of that.
Jesus, the apostles and their successors received their semikhah properly. Where did the governing body get theirs. LOL. They didn't. They appointed themselves as teachers with authority.