The Trinity

[Muffled]

No Jesus mentioned in the ot for 4000 years, if he was equal to the Father why isnt he mentioned? Michael is mentioned quite a bit-- the most powerful being next to YHWH(Jehovah) (1 thess 4:16-- when Jesus returns he returns with the archangels voice--his voice. ) 1 cor 15:24-28--after Jesus hands back the kingdom( kingship) to his God and Father--he becomes subject to him once again---only a created being is in subjection, not an equal partner.

Jesus is not equal to the Father. The Spirit of God in Jesus is equal to the Father. The spirit of God has always existed but Jesus came into being at his conception.

Michael may be mentioned but never as one with the Father.

See my previous post that explains why this is not so.

The King who rules the Kingdom of God is Jesus. So when Jesus delivers the Kingdom to the Father He is delivering it to Himself and equating Himself with the Father by doing so.

There is no such thing as "partners" because He is the same being. There must be two beings for there to be partners.

 

[Muffled]

Where as Jesus was one with his Father in purpose,and lived to do his Fathers will, that is how Jesus resembled his Father, but at Acts 2:22 it teaches that Gods power went through Jesus( Jesus did not have power without that occurring) same occurred through Moses and he was called a god( meaning, has godlike qualities, because Gods power went through him) And to keep Gods word in harmony with itself Jesus( word) was called a god( small g) not the God, at John 1:1

Jesus never says that He resembles the Father or that He is like the Father but says that He and the Father are one. Obviously that oneness includes oneness of purpose and oneness of will. I believe in truth no-one else can achieve that oneness of purpose of God because no-one else is God.

Acts 2:22 does not state that Jesus did not have the Power. I believe that is mere speculation on your part.

The "All things were made through Him" in Act 1:3 indicate He is God not god.

No doubt that God's power wasmanifested through Moses however I believe that in either case it does not appertain to the identity of the individual Moses or Jesus.

 

[cataway]

i don't like the word partners ...... some people seam to think it means equal.

 

[kjw47]

Jesus never says that He resembles the Father or that He is like the Father but says that He and the Father are one. Obviously that oneness includes oneness of purpose and oneness of will. I believe in truth no-one else can achieve that oneness of purpose of God because no-one else is God.

Acts 2:22 does not state that Jesus did not have the Power. I believe that is mere speculation on your part.

The "All things were made through Him" in Act 1:3 indicate He is God not god.

No doubt that God's power wasmanifested through Moses however I believe that in either case it does not appertain to the identity of the individual Moses or Jesus.

Proverbs 8--- Jesus is Gods master worker---And it teaches that he was produced as the beginning of his ways)--created directly by God( first and last) all other things were created through Jesus-- how can anyone else possibly be Gods master worker when all things( except himself) were created through him? Never was more work done than in creation.

 

[kjw47]

I believe this is as far fetched an interpretation of the verse that one could make. Jesus has His own voice. The Archanagel has his own voice and never the the twain shall meet. You do understand that "with" here means "in the company of" as in John and Jane went with Jill to the store.

I believe He absolutely does not have the archangel's voice or the verse would read Jesus shouted with the voice of an archangel.

I believe your conclusion is false because your premise is false ie that the voice of Jesus is the same as the archangel.

Jesus words at John 17:1-6 cannot be denied--the Father( one who sent him) is the only true God Jesus said--verse 6=Jehovah. The JW,s listened to Jesus.

 

[sojourner]

Jesus words at John 17:1-6 cannot be denied--the Father( one who sent him) is the only true God Jesus said--verse 6=Jehovah. The JW,s listened to Jesus.

The text doesn't specify "Jehovah." it couldn't, since "Jehovah" is derived directly from German.

 

[icebuddy]

Icebuddy said:

It is in fact referred to in the Neuter form. They would have used a masculine form if they felt it wasn't an "it".

The New Testament reveals the Old Testament, Correct or Not? There is enough evidence showing personality to the Holy Spirit. If you want to ignore that because of a passage that says "it", then thats your choice. But theres many upon many other passages showing the Personality of the Holy Spirit.

how do you reconcile your belief that the Holy spirit is not personal with scriptures teaching us that the Holy Spirit has a mind, can and does speak, knows things, has emotions, loves, grieves, has a will, and any more?

I don't recall the Classical Trinity believing in a Hierarchy, but in believing total equality among them.

Who is the First person of the Trinity? Father
Who is the Second? Jesus
Who is the Third? Holy Spirit
** All Equal in being God **

So when God sent "saviors" in Obadiah 1:28 that wasn't God doing the saving? False strawman. Using Jesus to create the world "Through" does not mean that The Father wasn't orchestrating it.

Next time you see someone saying Jesus didnt create all things because the Father did it "Through" him, I will expect you to bring this all up. Agreed? I dont have a problem for i believe they are One God, Im just pointing out that The Father does things Through Jesus and vise versa.

a god

We have been around and around this. One of us might have to answer some dificult questions at death... OMG

In Love
Tom

 

[icebuddy]

Ernst Haenchen uses this interpretation in his commentary on the Gospel of John:

"It was quite possible in Jewish and Christian monotheism to speak of divine beings that existed alongside and under God but were not identical with him. Phil 2:6-10 proves that. In that passage Paul depicts just such a divine being, who later became man in Jesus Christ" - John 1, translated by R. W. Funk, 1984, pp. 109, 110, Fortress Press.

The JW's miss quote Ernst Haenchen and I would like for you to tell me where this is at so i can look for myself. For Haenchen says that the Logos "existed before the creation and was not therefore created; it shared the highest of all distinctions with 'God, the Father' himself: the 'Logos' is eternal"

(p. 108). Ernst Haenchen, Das Johannesevangelium. Ein Kommentar, 1984, John 1. A Commentary on the Gospel of John Chapters 1-6, translated by Robert W. Funk.

BTW, He called the Word an "it", would you argue the word has no personality?

In Love,
tom

 

[icebuddy]

Revelation 3 v 14 Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God.

God is UN-created. God had NO beginning.
Jesus is created. Jesus had a beginning.

Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.

URMVP2ME - The bible never says "Jesus is created". I have explained the word "Firstborn" as seen in the bible. The Fact that Girls are born First and are never called "Firstborn" should alone show you that this word is a Heir ship title.

The Father is called, "The Beginning and End" of all things. Why dont you argue that he has a beginning or an end as you do about Jesus when the same words are applied to Him? Dont forget that Jesus is expressing the Fathers being by his mere existance, so if we see the Father being called Beginning of all creation I would expect the son to be called the same. They share many titles

To Add to this, read John 1:3,4 and then read 1John 1:1-8 and see the Eternal Word of Life is eternal from the beginning

In Love,
Tom

 

[icebuddy]

Proverbs 8--- Jesus is Gods master worker---And it teaches that he was produced as the beginning of his ways)--created directly by God( first and last) all other things were created through Jesus-- how can anyone else possibly be Gods master worker when all things( except himself) were created through him? Never was more work done than in creation.

Heres a list of missunderstandings that I see

1. Proverbs 8 doesnt say Jesus is Gods master worker.
2. Proverbs 8 is talking about Wisdom
3. Produced doesnt mean create, i produced my wallet at the check out stand
4. My NWT says in the beginning of "His"(GODS) ways. **

**Would you argue God had a beginning too? Read it again and see that it says in the beginning of Gods ways. Im sure if the bible said "In the beginning of Jesus's ways" the anti-trinitarians would jump all over this passage showing Jesus as created.

5. God was never without Wisdom
6. Wisdom is Brought Forth, not created. Same as wallet at store. i didnt create my wallet at the check out stand, I brought it Forth, I produced it to pay my bill.
7. Wisdom is called "Sister", "Her", and "She" throughout Proverbs. Are we to believe this to be Jesus the Eternal Word of God is a woman?
8. Who is Prudence that lives with Wisdom? pro 8:12

The point is that Gods wisdom is as Eternal as God Himself, never was he without wisdom. Proverbs never says God was without wisdom but rather brought it forth & never does it say Prophetically that this is Jesus either. Could we not say that Jesus Brought forth wisdom during creation as well?

In Love,
Tom

 

[Shermana]

The JW's miss quote Ernst Haenchen and I would like for you to tell me where this is at so i can look for myself. For Haenchen says that the Logos "existed before the creation and was not therefore created; it shared the highest of all distinctions with 'God, the Father' himself: the 'Logos' is eternal"

(p. 108). Ernst Haenchen, Das Johannesevangelium. Ein Kommentar, 1984, John 1. A Commentary on the Gospel of John Chapters 1-6, translated by Robert W. Funk.

BTW, He called the Word an "it", would you argue the word has no personality?

In Love,
tom

They didn't misquote him at all, you are simply interjecting another thing he said that's indirectly related and if anything still agrees with what he said earlier, the issue is in how to translate Phil 2:5-6. The issue is that Phil 2:5-6 does in fact say "Form of a god", and in the same grammatical way of "form of a slave". There's simply no way to interpret "Form of God" to mean "Came as God Himself", since "The God" is still "a god" as well, so it's clearly "form of a god" despite the insistence of Trinitarians on what that verse means. It seems you are confused on the concept of what "misquoting" means. As well, what he says about the Logos is that it SHARED the "highest distinctions of God", still showing that it's a separate entity. I clearly said he's a Trinitarian, so the point is that I'm showing that Trinitarians themselves, like Goodspeed and Moffatt, are often willing to give an honest critique on commonly abused verses by other Trinitarians. So if anything, what you quoted is perfectly consistent with what he said in my quote.

And using the neuter form "It" does not devoid it of personality. The Spirit is described in the neuter form itself in the scriptures, how about that?


Now you ask me for the source of the quote, which makes me wonder if you even read the quote I posted which you claim they misquoted. " - John 1, translated by R. W. Funk, 1984, pp. 109, 110, Fortress
Press." It's on the very next page after the quote you listed.

Seriously, did you even read the quote and would be able to discuss it or did you immediately react to say they misquoted him without even reading what it says? Would you even be able to discuss that quote so you can see why I'm saying your own quote is perfectly consistent?

Just because he believes the Logos wasn't created (where we disagree) doesn't mean he doesn't believe they are still different entities. If anything, he is closer to the Classical Trinity than most other quasi-Sabbellian Trinitarians.

 

[icebuddy]

Jesus words at John 17:1-6 cannot be denied--the Father( one who sent him) is the only true God Jesus said--verse 6=Jehovah. The JW,s listened to Jesus.

Only True God and Jesus Christ (john 17:3)

The word "and" dia, doesnt separate Jesus from the True God, it includes him into the "True God" statement. Dia in the Greek carries the meaning of also, even, both, likewise. The True God includes Jesus.

Now Read Isaiah 44:6 in your NWT

This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Isreal and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of Armies, i am the First and i am the Last, and besides me there is no God.

Who is the Repurchaser of Him?
What is his name?
Is he separate or one with God?

in Love,
tom

 

[Shermana]

Icebuddy said:

he New Testament reveals the Old Testament, Correct or Not?

Define your terms and then we'll agree. What does it reveal?

There is enough evidence showing personality to the Holy Spirit. If you want to ignore that because of a passage that says "it", then thats your choice. But theres many upon many other passages showing the Personality of the Holy Spirit.

What are you responding to exactly? I never said the Spirit doesn't have personality.

how do you reconcile your belief that the Holy spirit is not personal with scriptures teaching us that the Holy Spirit has a mind, can and does speak, knows things, has emotions, loves, grieves, has a will, and any more?

Remind me where I said it has no personality.

Who is the First person of the Trinity? Father
Who is the Second? Jesus
Who is the Third? Holy Spirit
** All Equal in being God **

Right, no hierarchy in the Classical Trinity, like I said. Which kinda contradicts what the text actually says. And as I've brought up before, the word "person" is not exactly very clear, most attempts to define what "person" means end up in the Sabbellian "persona" description, far out of left field (as if the center field was clear to begin with). Besides, what exactly does "All Equal in being God" mean if Jesus implies the Father is Greater? Does that mean that God the Father is not equal to his equal selves? Apparently so. How can one be "Equal in Being God" if their "godness" is not equal to another? Different ranks of "being God" still exist. Even in Revelation after Jesus ascends. The Son has God as "his god" but whose god is the Father? Why does the son "have a god" but the Father doesnt'? This doctrine has enough holes to warrant the "Too much for the Human mind to understand" paint job as anyone can see.

Next time you see someone saying Jesus didnt create all things because the Father did it "Through" him, I will expect you to bring this all up. Agreed?

I see it's been brought up already. But what does that have to do with my response?

I dont have a problem for i believe they are One God, Im just pointing out that The Father does things Through Jesus and vise versa.

If he does things THROUGH (Dia) Jesus, that means they are separate beings. Not just different "persons." And regarding your strange definition of "Dia" in the above post, did you totally make that up or something? Where did you get that?

We have been around and around this. One of us might have to answer some dificult questions at death... OMG

If you want to say things like that, I'll just say that I believe it's you who will have the difficult questions like "Why did you not believe the actual grammar and stick to your conformist mainstream views and study the history in the face of overwhelming evidence against it", but that's just me.

 

[sojourner]

Only True God and Jesus Christ (john 17:3)

The word "and" dia, doesnt separate Jesus from the True God, it includes him into the "True God" statement. Dia in the Greek carries the meaning of also, even, both, likewise. The True God includes Jesus.

Now Read Isaiah 44:6 in your NWT

This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Isreal and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of Armies, i am the First and i am the Last, and besides me there is no God.

Who is the Repurchaser of Him?
What is his name?
Is he separate or one with God?

in Love,
tom

In bold is a pretty good argument, although I'm not convinced that the writer meant it quite so concretely-defined as we would like for it to be.

 

[kjw47]

Only True God and Jesus Christ (john 17:3)

The word "and" dia, doesnt separate Jesus from the True God, it includes him into the "True God" statement. Dia in the Greek carries the meaning of also, even, both, likewise. The True God includes Jesus.

Now Read Isaiah 44:6 in your NWT

This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Isreal and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of Armies, i am the First and i am the Last, and besides me there is no God.

Who is the Repurchaser of Him?
What is his name?
Is he separate or one with God?

in Love,
tom

Jesus himself tells truth-- John 20:17--rev 3:12--- Jesus has a God--- God does not have a God.

 

[sojourner]

Jesus himself tells truth-- John 20:17--rev 3:12--- Jesus has a God--- God does not have a God.

Jesus is fully human. Therefore, the fully human Jesus has a God.

But Jesus is also fully Divine. Sorry, I just don't see the problem with holding Jesus to both lights.

 

[kjw47]

Jesus is fully human. Therefore, the fully human Jesus has a God.

But Jesus is also fully Divine. Sorry, I just don't see the problem with holding Jesus to both lights.

rev 3:12--Jesis is fully spirit-- no flesh lives in heaven.

 

[sojourner]

rev 3:12--Jesis is fully spirit-- no flesh lives in heaven.

Well -- Jesus did die. We can only assume that the body the disciples saw was a spiritual one -- seeing that Jesus walked right through a locked door.

 

[kjw47]

Well -- Jesus did die. We can only assume that the body the disciples saw was a spiritual one -- seeing that Jesus walked right through a locked door.

I agree with you on this, also outside of the burial chamber, he was not recognized. But he also materialized his fleshly body to Thomas. But why would he remain as flesh when Gods word said he was made inferior to angels? He went to heaven to become king of kings, not to remain lesser than angels.

 

[sojourner]

I agree with you on this, also outside of the burial chamber, he was not recognized. But he also materialized his fleshly body to Thomas. But why would he remain as flesh when Gods word said he was made inferior to angels? He went to heaven to become king of kings, not to remain lesser than angels.

He didn't. He died just like every other human being dies.