The Trinity

[Muffled]

Proverbs 8--- Jesus is Gods master worker---And it teaches that he was produced as the beginning of his ways)--created directly by God( first and last) all other things were created through Jesus-- how can anyone else possibly be Gods master worker when all things( except himself) were created through him? Never was more work done than in creation.

I believe Jesus is not mentioned in Prov 8 and did not exist at the time Proverbs was written. I believe Proverbs is not prophesying of Jesus either.

I believe there is no evidence to support this concept.

I believe the body of Jesus was created at conception but the spirit that enters the body is the Spirit of God.

I believe there is no such thing as "God's master worker." I believe God does His own work.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus words at John 17:1-6 cannot be denied--the Father( one who sent him) is the only true God Jesus said--verse 6=Jehovah. The JW,s listened to Jesus.

I believe JW's listen to their own thinking and ignore what Jesus says.

 

[Muffled]

The JW's miss quote Ernst Haenchen and I would like for you to tell me where this is at so i can look for myself. For Haenchen says that the Logos "existed before the creation and was not therefore created; it shared the highest of all distinctions with 'God, the Father' himself: the 'Logos' is eternal"

(p. 108). Ernst Haenchen, Das Johannesevangelium. Ein Kommentar, 1984, John 1. A Commentary on the Gospel of John Chapters 1-6, translated by Robert W. Funk.

BTW, He called the Word an "it", would you argue the word has no personality?

In Love,
tom

The Logos is not a separate being; it is the essence of God. God thinks and speaks and reasons and none of those things should be personified as separate from God.

 

[Shiranui117]

I believe Jesus is not mentioned in Prov 8 and did not exist at the time Proverbs was written. I believe Proverbs is not prophesying of Jesus either.

I believe there is no evidence to support this concept.

I believe the body of Jesus was created at conception but the spirit that enters the body is the Spirit of God.

I believe there is no such thing as "God's master worker." I believe God does His own work.

So then, are you a Nestorian, believing that God possessed the body of the man Jesus, thus two persons, each with their own separate nature, in one body?

 

[kjw47]

I believe Jesus is not mentioned in Prov 8 and did not exist at the time Proverbs was written. I believe Proverbs is not prophesying of Jesus either.

I believe there is no evidence to support this concept.

I believe the body of Jesus was created at conception but the spirit that enters the body is the Spirit of God.

I believe there is no such thing as "God's master worker." I believe God does His own work.

Proverbs 8 says there is a master worker--and he was produced as the beginning of Gods ways( created directly by God, first and last) the hardest work ever done was creation--God created all other things through Jesus( who was born Michael the archangel in heaven)

 

[kjw47]

I believe JW's listen to their own thinking and ignore what Jesus says.

Quite the opposite is truth. The JW,s are the only ones who listen to Jesus and apply.

 

[sojourner]

Proverbs 8 says there is a master worker--and he was produced as the beginning of Gods ways( created directly by God, first and last) the hardest work ever done was creation--God created all other things through Jesus( who was born Michael the archangel in heaven)

Proverbs isn't talking about Jesus, because the author could not have known of Jesus, since he hadn't been born yet. It's always a huge mistake to read Jesus into any OT passage.

 

[sojourner]

Quite the opposite is truth. The JW,s are the only ones who listen to Jesus and apply.

I doubt the veracity of this statement.

 

[Shermana]

Proverbs 8 says there is a master worker--and he was produced as the beginning of Gods ways( created directly by God, first and last) the hardest work ever done was creation--God created all other things through Jesus( who was born Michael the archangel in heaven)

Interestingly, even reactionary Trinitarian apologetic sites like Tektonics agree that the "Wisdom" was in fact a separate, created being and was the forerunner concept of Jesus, who was Wisdom personified in the flesh.

Jesus: God's Wisdom

Background
The background with Wisdom Christology is found in the concept of hypostasis. What is a hypostasis? Broadly defined, it is a quasi-personification of attributes proper to a deity, occupying an intermediate position between personalities and abstract beings.
In the Ancient Near East here are some examples:

• 
  [*]Hu and Sia, in Egyptian tradition the creative word and understanding of Re-Atum
  [*]Ma'at, also Egyptian, a personification of right order in nature and society, a creation of Re
  [*]Mesaru and Kettu, or Righteousness and Right, Akkadian hypostases conceived of as qualities of the sun-god, or as gifts granted by him, or sometimes as personal beings or independent deities
  [*]the divine word, which proceeds via the character of breath and wind, in Sumerian and Akkadian literature

Wisdom in Proverbs
Wisdom in Proverbs 8, and Wisdom in Sirach and Wisdom of Solomon, and Philo's logos, all fit hand in glove with these. Now, let's look at some cites, starting with Prov. 8:

Proverbs 8:22-30 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him...​

This passage is one of several in the Old Testament (see Ps. 58:10, 107:42; Job 11:14) in which abstract qualities are personified, following an Ancient Near Eastern tradition of personification. (Derek Kidner, The Wisdom of Proverbs, Job and Ecclesiastes, 44.) Here, and in other parts of Proverbs, Wisdom "makes claims for herself which are elsewhere made only by, or for, God."
The verb used by Wisdom to call attention to its messages is the same used by the prophets to call for returning to God in repentance. (R. N. Whybray, Proverbs, 44) The speech made by Wisdom in this chapter is "a lengthy self-recommendation in which (Wisdom) boasts of her power and authority and of the gifts she is able to bestow," following a known Ancient Near Eastern literary genre in which a divinity praises itself. "Wisdom is intended to be understood as an attribute or heavenly servant of the sole God Yahweh to whom he has delegated certain powers with regard to his relations with mankind."

We will now examine Jewish speculations that accorded "the Wisdom of God" a quasi-personal status. We will then be able to see a continuity between the intertestamental literature and the New Testament that defines the nature of the relationship between God the Father and Jesus Christ.
Dunn puts it succinctly: "What pre-Christian Judaism said of Wisdom and Philo also of the Logos, Paul and the others say of Jesus. The role that Proverbs, ben Sira, etc. ascribe to Wisdom, these earliest Christians ascribe to Jesus." [James D. G. Dunn, Christology in the Making, 167] This conception of Wisdom parallels a less significant, general Jewish explanation of how a transcendent God could participate in a temporal creation. The Aramaic Targums resolved this problem by equating God with His Word; thus, in the Targums, Exodus 19:17, rather than saying the people went out to meet God, it says that the people went out to meet the word of God, or Memra.
This term became a periphrasis for God; whether it could have been reckoned as a separate person, as in Christian Trinitarianism, is a matter of debate. The risk involved with making Wisdom/Word an independent deity was too great for the rabbis to speculate further, but Christians found in the Wisdom tradition an ideal categorical conception within which to place the person of Jesus.
N.T. Wright observes in Who Was Jesus? [48-9] that Jewish monotheism "was never, in the Jewish literature of the crucial period, an analysis of the inner being of God, a kind of numerical statement about, so to speak, what God was like on the inside." Rather, it was "always a polemical statement directed outwards against the pagan nations." Rabbis of Jesus' time had no difficulty in personifying separate aspects of God's personality i.e., His Wisdom, His Law (Torah), His Presence (Shekinah) and His Word (Memra). This division had the philosophical purpose of "get(ting) around the problem of how to speak appropriately of the one true God who is both beyond the created world and active within it."

 

[Shiranui117]

deleted

 

[InChrist]

Proverbs 8 says there is a master worker--and he was produced as the beginning of Gods ways( created directly by God, first and last) the hardest work ever done was creation--God created all other things through Jesus( who was born Michael the archangel in heaven)

The Watchtower says that Proverbs 8 is speaking about Jesus being created as a master worker, but that is not what the Biblical scriptures taken in context are saying.

Proverbs chapter 8 is about wisdom personified and is not referring to Christ as a created being at all.

Since chapters 1-9 are speaking about God’s wisdom personified and how important it is to get, acquire, or possess, wisdom, I believe chapter 8 is also speaking of this same wisdom. I do not see any indication that chapter 8 should be taken to have a different meaning (as referring to the Person of Christ) than chapters 1-7 and 9.

I have noticed that the Greek word “qanah” used in verse 22 is not the same Greek word (bara) used in Genesis 1:1, 1:21,1:27, 2:3, 2:4, 5:1,5:2, 6:7 or in Isaiah 43:1, 43:7,45:12, 45:18, 48:7.where the text is speaking of God creating the heavens and the earth and individuals.

The word “qanah” is used elsewhere in Genesis, but not to show the creation of something or someone. Instead, it is translated as “possessor” or “bought” to show ownership. (Gen.14:19, 14:22, 33:19, 47:20, 47:23, 49:30)

The Hebrew word “asah”, translated- to do, work, make, produce, is not used in Proverbs 8:22

This indicates that verses 22-31 are speaking metaphorically of God’s attribute of wisdom (His possession as a part of His divine nature), which He has had eternally (verse 23), and which was brought forth (verse 24) to be used in the creation of the universe.

This is an entirely different meaning of wisdom which is consistent with the surrounding chapters than the Watchtower twist of Proverbs 8.

 

[kjw47]

The Watchtower says that Proverbs 8 is speaking about Jesus being created as a master worker, but that is not what the Biblical scriptures taken in context are saying.

Proverbs chapter 8 is about wisdom personified and is not referring to Christ as a created being at all.

Since chapters 1-9 are speaking about God’s wisdom personified and how important it is to get, acquire, or possess, wisdom, I believe chapter 8 is also speaking of this same wisdom. I do not see any indication that chapter 8 should be taken to have a different meaning (as referring to the Person of Christ) than chapters 1-7 and 9.

I have noticed that the Greek word “qanah” used in verse 22 is not the same Greek word (bara) used in Genesis 1:1, 1:21,1:27, 2:3, 2:4, 5:1,5:2, 6:7 or in Isaiah 43:1, 43:7,45:12, 45:18, 48:7.where the text is speaking of God creating the heavens and the earth and individuals.

The word “qanah” is used elsewhere in Genesis, but not to show the creation of something or someone. Instead, it is translated as “possessor” or “bought” to show ownership. (Gen.14:19, 14:22, 33:19, 47:20, 47:23, 49:30)

The Hebrew word “asah”, translated- to do, work, make, produce, is not used in Proverbs 8:22

This indicates that verses 22-31 are speaking metaphorically of God’s attribute of wisdom (His possession as a part of His divine nature), which He has had eternally (verse 23), and which was brought forth (verse 24) to be used in the creation of the universe.

This is an entirely different meaning of wisdom which is consistent with the surrounding chapters than the Watchtower twist of Proverbs 8.

Prov 8: 30-- this is 100% for sure a being-- The one God is most fond of- #2 in command.Michael=Jesus = the word=wisdom.

 

[Shermana]

The Watchtower says that Proverbs 8 is speaking about Jesus being created as a master worker, but that is not what the Biblical scriptures taken in context are saying.

Proverbs chapter 8 is about wisdom personified and is not referring to Christ as a created being at all.

Since chapters 1-9 are speaking about God’s wisdom personified and how important it is to get, acquire, or possess, wisdom, I believe chapter 8 is also speaking of this same wisdom. I do not see any indication that chapter 8 should be taken to have a different meaning (as referring to the Person of Christ) than chapters 1-7 and 9.

I have noticed that the Greek word “qanah” used in verse 22 is not the same Greek word (bara) used in Genesis 1:1, 1:21,1:27, 2:3, 2:4, 5:1,5:2, 6:7 or in Isaiah 43:1, 43:7,45:12, 45:18, 48:7.where the text is speaking of God creating the heavens and the earth and individuals.

The word “qanah” is used elsewhere in Genesis, but not to show the creation of something or someone. Instead, it is translated as “possessor” or “bought” to show ownership. (Gen.14:19, 14:22, 33:19, 47:20, 47:23, 49:30)

The Hebrew word “asah”, translated- to do, work, make, produce, is not used in Proverbs 8:22

This indicates that verses 22-31 are speaking metaphorically of God’s attribute of wisdom (His possession as a part of His divine nature), which He has had eternally (verse 23), and which was brought forth (verse 24) to be used in the creation of the universe.

This is an entirely different meaning of wisdom which is consistent with the surrounding chapters than the Watchtower twist of Proverbs 8.

As I've demonstrated, it's hardly just the Watchtower that "Twists" this meaning, it's also that of Reactionary Classical Trinitarians.

 

[sojourner]

Prov 8: 30-- this is 100% for sure a being-- The one God is most fond of- #2 in command.Michael=Jesus = the word=wisdom.

Ridiculous. There's absolutely no -- repeat: no -- exegetical support for this.

 

[InChrist]

Prov 8: 30-- this is 100% for sure a being-- The one God is most fond of- #2 in command.Michael=Jesus = the word=wisdom.

So you are saying that Proverbs 8 is not about God’s wisdom personified, but that it is literally about the person or being of Christ, is this correct?


You also believe that Jesus is Michael…the archangel?
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[Shermana]

Besides, we see the same concept in Wisdom of Solomon, as the Tektonics site clearly demonstrates, that Wisdom was considered an actual personified being, the Firstborn of Creation. And we see this in Philo as well.

I'm pretty sure the early Gnostics borrowed this idea when they said that Sophia (an actual spiritual being, independent) was the first emanation from the Source, meaning that this concept was in well circulation. I'm also pretty sure Philo didn't just fabricate it out of thin air but was repeating a widely accepted view for his Greek readers.

 

[sojourner]

So you are saying that Proverbs 8 is not about God’s wisdom personified, but that it is literally about the person or being of Christ, is this correct?


You also believe that Jesus is Michael…the archangel?
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There's no accounting for eisegesis...:help:

 

[kjw47]

So you are saying that Proverbs 8 is not about God’s wisdom personified, but that it is literally about the person or being of Christ, is this correct?


You also believe that Jesus is Michael…the archangel?

yes and yes

 

[kjw47]

Ridiculous. There's absolutely no -- repeat: no -- exegetical support for this.

Its the truth, the world is rejecting truth that is why few find the narrow gate to enter to walk on the cramped road leading to eternal life. Just like Jesus said--FEW will find it). Because from generation to generation from parent to child the false truth founded at catholicism councils have been handed down as truth. Satan took the people of today centuries ago.

 

[sojourner]

Its the truth, the world is rejecting truth that is why few find the narrow gate to enter to walk on the cramped road leading to eternal life. Just like Jesus said--FEW will find it). Because from generation to generation from parent to child the false truth founded at catholicism councils have been handed down as truth. Satan took the people of today centuries ago.

Jesus wasn't talking about exegeting biblical texts when he said that. My statement stands: There is no exegetical evidence to support that claim.