The Trinity

[Shiranui117]

1. And I've already shown, through the writings of Peter and Paul, how the sola scriptura is the only source.

You haven't. You really, really haven't.

2. You do realize there is a difference between establishing historicity and establishing doctrine?

If the Apostles did not teach something to their students, such as the "fact" that God is Binitarian, then it must mean that such an idea was not part of the faith once delivered unto all the saints.

3. Nope, uncomplicated as in God gave Adam and Eve simple, uncomplicated instructions not to eat from a certain tree. If sincerity were the theme, either one of these appropriate Greek terms-- γνησιον or ειλικρινεια-- would have been inspired.

I'm sorry, I was unaware that we were allowed to completely ignore each other's evidence. Like the definition I posted for ἁπλότητος in 2 Corinthians 11:3.

Here, again:

4. Cherry picking in a debate is never a good idea:

Strange, looks like you and I found different manuscripts. I wasn't cherrypicking, I can assure you of that. I'm sure you found Greek manuscripts that read both ways. I know I did when I went back to check a bit ago.

6. Hmmm strange. I dont see the term "Himself" in the Greek text YOU posted. Refuting yourself isn't a good idea either.

I'm hardly "refuting" myself here. The "Himself" isn't pivotal to the passage, nor is it the focus of the passage. It's tangential at best. Don't get pedantic on me, man.

7. Yes I do. Your trinitarian bias will not allow you to see the difference between the person of Christ and the love exemplified "THROUGH" someone filled with the Spirit.

I could say a lot of things about your Binitarian bias, but I'll let fully-fledged arguments in other areas do the talking for me.

8. You DO realize you are engaging in more kettle logic. Now you're saying Christ and His Word (sola scriptura) is the truth. But you mentioned earlier that the sola scriptura is not a way to truth.

No, you're reading way too much into my words. "His Word"=/=Sola Scriptura. It'd be much appreciated if you didn't try reading your own arguments and points into mine. It doesn't make you look very good. Just a friendly piece of advice, from one neighbor to another.

Unless we have an understanding of the Scripture as good as God's, we're not going to be interpreting the Bible entirely right on our own. You cannot have fallible humans use just the Bible, and have them all get to the same, correct faith (again, just look at the state of Christianity, particularly Protestantism, today. The very existence of the "Biblical Debates" forum on this site is further proof.) We need a guide in interpreting the Scriptures correctly in order to get to the faith taught by Christ. The other writings of the Apostles and their students, the ones who originally wrote and used the New Testament writings, and the ones who COMPILED the New Testament, will tell us what the authors meant when they were writing what would become the New Testament writings under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Using the Apostolic faith and Apostolic tradition to understand the Scriptures written by the Apostles sounds like a pretty good idea, doesn't it? Good, because it is.

So, if we try to interpret Scripture ourselves, we'll be like blind men walking without a cane; we're incredibly likely to fall into a hole without someone to show us the way.

John 20:30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book;

Acts 20:35 I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”

^Now tell me, where in the Gospels is that saying mentioned? I'll answer for you: Nowhere. The Bible as we know it is not a complete corpus of teaching. It is useful for teaching, exhorting and reproving, yet it in and of itself does not contain the fullness of what the Apostles learned from Jesus. The Bible admits and shows that it is not a complete tradition unto itself.

And we know that the early church's teachings could be found in extra-Biblical epistles, written to instruct and reprove and maintain order, by bishops of the Church (who were, BTW, hand-selected and personally appointed by the Apostles), and also in manuals on how Church life ran, such as in the Didache.

Simply put, if you wish to truly understand the faith of the Apostles and the teachings of Christ, you must consider everything, not just the Bible. Otherwise, you have self-induced tunnel vision, and it's very easy for you to misinterpret the Bible. But if you take everything into account, you will have a very clear idea of exactly what the Apostolic faith was and is.

A few more things showing that the Bible doesn't contain everything that Christ taught to the Apostles:

John 21:25 And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.

Luke 24 44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

In other words, even the disciples, those who walked and followed Christ on the flesh for three years straight, STILL did not have a full understanding of the Scriptures until Christ opened their understanding after His Resurrection.

Luke 32 And they said to one another, “Did not our heart burn within us while He talked with us on the road, and while He opened the Scriptures to us?”

Notice how Luke 32 doesn't mention exactly WHAT Jesus taught them. It's a 7-mile walk in between Jerusalem and Emmaus, which is a good hour and a half to two hours of walking. There was a really long and intense conversation that we're missing out on here.

See? Even the Bible admits and demonstrates that it doesn't have everything. It's just the core teachings and sayings. If you wish to understand the fullness of the Christian message, you HAVE to look at more than just the Bible. You have to look at how the Apostles and their students expounded on it if you wish to understand the Apostolic faith, and not get led to false doctrine.

9. I am also a student of the original apostles and I can read and comprehend just as much as they could.

I'm sorry, I don't recall you being personally instructed in-person by the Apostles while they were living, breathing and talking, when they were able to tell you much more about Jesus than what they wrote in their Gospels, what they had in mind when they were writing their various epistles and Gospels. I don't recall St. Paul personally coming to preach in your church and baptize people.

Tell me, what did they look like? What were their personalities? What methods did they use to help you learn? Visual? Aural? Practical? Q&A session?

The fact is, you and I have NOT been taught by the Apostles in the same way that those early Christians living 2000 years ago were. We don't get the full version like they did. We don't get to converse with the Apostles ourselves, we don't get the chance to ask them what they meant when they were writing their epistles and Gospels, and what else Jesus taught them. People like Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp, on the other hand, did. You'll understand if I like to use more than just one primary source to get a good, balanced and more accurate understanding of what the Apostles taught and believed, and what they were teaching their students, free of your own personal bias. It's also a good practice for history and sociology in general. You should try it sometime.

 

[Shiranui117]

10. Is that not still an apostasy?

More like a heresy that the Apostles and leaders of the Church corrected in Acts 15.

11. And apparently, you're not reading enough...Paul earnestly warned the elders that from their own number some would depart from the faith (Acts 20:29,30).

Yes, "some." Not "overwhelming majority of the entire Church." A few sheep do stray from time to time, sadly.

False apostles and false brethren arose within local church assemblies (1 cor 11: 13-15,26). Soon they outnumbered the faithful who made up the true church. Several years before the apostle John died he had to write his third letter about the fact that the few faithful brethren that were left were being put out of the local assembly (3 John 9,10). So yes there was an apostasy.

Where in God's green earth are you getting that interpretation from?

Here, have a look at everything leading up to verses 9 and 10. I'll walk through it with you.

1 The Elder, [gk. Presbyteros, same word we get "priest" from]

To the beloved Gaius, whom I love in truth:
2 Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers. 3 For I rejoiced greatly when brethren came and testified of the truth that is in you, just as you walk in the truth. 4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.[a]


In other words, the priest of the community is a good and holy man, who "walk in the truth." I don't think I need to tell you that the priest is the leader of the community.



5 Beloved, you do faithfully whatever you do for the brethren and[b] for strangers, 6 who have borne witness of your love before the church. If you send them forward on their journey in a manner worthy of God, you will do well, 7 because they went forth for His name’s sake, taking nothing from the Gentiles. 8 We therefore ought to receive[c] such, that we may become fellow workers for the truth.
9 I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, does not receive us. 10 Therefore, if I come, I will call to mind his deeds which he does, prating against us with malicious words. And not content with that, he himself does not receive the brethren, and forbids those who wish to, putting them out of the church.


In other words, you have one megalomaniacal schmuck in one community who causes trouble. And THIS is your big evidence that there was this MASSIVE falling-away, that heretics began to outnumber the true Christians? Come on, man, I was hoping for at least a better defense for this argument of yours than desperately grasping at straws.



11 Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. He who does good is of God, but[d] he who does evil has not seen God.
12 Demetrius has a good testimony from all, and from the truth itself. And we also bear witness, and you know that our testimony is true.

^Demetrius, another good and holy Christian, is well-liked by everyone.

Seriously, one megalomaniac in one parish does not give ANY evidence to this great "falling away," much less to this:

Soon they outnumbered the faithful who made up the true church. Several years before the apostle John died he had to write his third letter about the fact that the few faithful brethren that were left were being put out of the local assembly

I'd like to see evidence for the bold, BTW. Anything you've got.

13. see point 11

See above.

14. You have shown nothing of the sort from the sola scriptura--only from your own biases and prejudices. Unless I missed something terribly, I don't see the Epistles of Polycarp or Ignatius in any of the 40+ bibles in my library.

Christ's and the Apostles' teachings can be found in more than just the Bible. The faith taught by Christ... You know what, just look at my previous post, I cover this pretty thoroughly.

 

[Shiranui117]

Please notice Matthew 24 v 31.
The minor fulfillment of Matthew chapter 24 happened in the year 70 with Jerusalem's destruction. The MAJOR fulfillment is for our day or time frame. Please note in verse 31 that the 'he' mentioned is the Son of man of verse 30 or Christ Jesus.
Jesus sends forth angels with a great sound [shout ] of a trumpet.

Yeah, that's not a "shout" of a trumpet, but it sure is a trumpet.

That great sound or shout would be a COMMANDING CALL.
Trumpet blasts were used in Scripture to summon something or taking action.
-2nd Chronicles 13 vs 12-14
Jesus takes the action of 1st Thess. [4 v 16] to use his power of the resurrection [ Rev. 1 v 18 ] and the 'dead in Christ' rise First [Rev. 20 v 6]. Meaning Jesus 'brothers' of 1st Thess. [4 v 13 ] are part of the first or earlier resurrection of Revelation 20 v 6.
Please also note 1st Corinthians 15 v 52.
There the 'trumpet sound' [commanding call] is also in connection to the resurrection.
Jesus voice is also LOUD [shout/ commanding call] at John 11 v 43.

Alright, all good, but where does this imply that Jesus is an archangel? Or was that not your point?

Just as a trumpet in Scripture can be used in various ways or meanings, so too with the word: worship [proskyne'o]. 'Absolute worship' belongs only to God. Whereas a relative worship in the from of obeisance or bow down before as in pay homage is in harmony with Scripture.

Most people reword "worship" not directed to God as "veneration." But what are you trying to get at here? That Jesus and the Holy Spirit aren't God?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yeah, that's not a "shout" of a trumpet, but it sure is a trumpet.
Alright, all good, but where does this imply that Jesus is an archangel? Or was that not your point?
Most people reword "worship" not directed to God as "veneration." But what are you trying to get at here? That Jesus and the Holy Spirit aren't God?

Jesus voice is the 'shout' or LOUD voice. [with a shout from Jesus' mouth ]
The 'trumpet of God' is what Jesus uses. 'With' using the trumpet of God ....the dead rise...

Isn't Jesus the 'Lord' mentioned at 1st Thess. 4 v 16 ?_____
*The Lord with a shout
*The Lord with an archangel's voice
*The Lord with whose trumpet that he is using, but with the trumpet of God.
Not using his own trumpet but using another's trumpet to sound a commanding call.

Who are the two [2] LORD/Lord's of Psalm 110 v 1 [KJV] ?
*One LORD is in all capital letters
*One Lord is Not in all capital letters
Where the KJV Bible uses all upper-case letters [LORD] stands for God.
The other Lord [ in some lower-case letters] does Not stand for God but for Lord Jesus.
The Tetragrammaton [YHWH] only appears where LORD is in all capital letters.

 

[james2ko]

You haven't. You really, really haven't.

1. I believe I have, I really, really have. :yes:

If the Apostles did not teach something to their students, such as the "fact" that God is Binitarian, then it must mean that such an idea was not part of the faith once delivered unto all the saints.

2. One could say the same about trinitarianism, Easter, the "Sunday" sabbath, and other teachings the original apostles never taught but are widely practiced in its various forms by professing Christianity today.

I'm sorry, I was unaware that we were allowed to completely ignore each other's evidence. Like the definition I posted for ἁπλότητος in 2 Corinthians 11:3.

3. Those much smarter than you and I beg to differ. The implication was "simplicty" and hence the translation.

Strange, looks like you and I found different manuscripts. I wasn't cherrypicking, I can assure you of that. I'm sure you found Greek manuscripts that read both ways. I know I did when I went back to check a bit ago.

4, But of course.

I'm hardly "refuting" myself here. The "Himself" isn't pivotal to the passage, nor is it the focus of the passage.

5. It's pivotal to exposing your fallacious logic. You made missing text the focus when you thought you had me cornered but when I turned it on you it's suddenly not the focus...lol..

It's tangential at best. Don't get pedantic on me, man.

6. Tangential, pedantic? We speak "koine" English around here.

Unless we have an understanding of the Scripture as good as God's, we're not going to be interpreting the Bible entirely right on our own. You cannot have fallible humans use just the Bible, and have them all get to the same, correct faith (again, just look at the state of Christianity, particularly Protestantism, today. The very existence of the "Biblical Debates" forum on this site is further proof.) We need a guide in interpreting the Scriptures correctly in order to get to the faith taught by Christ. The other writings of the Apostles and their students, the ones who originally wrote and used the New Testament writings, and the ones who COMPILED the New Testament, will tell us what the authors meant when they were writing what would become the New Testament writings under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Using the Apostolic faith and Apostolic tradition to understand the Scriptures written by the Apostles sounds like a pretty good idea, doesn't it? Good, because it is.

So, if we try to interpret Scripture ourselves, we'll be like blind men walking without a cane; we're incredibly likely to fall into a hole without someone to show us the way.See? Even the Bible admits and demonstrates that it doesn't have everything. It's just the core teachings and sayings.

7. And it also admits that its core teachings and sayings (sola scriptura) alone are sufficient enough for salvation:

2Ti_3:15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.​

The fact is, you and I have NOT been taught by the Apostles in the same way that those early Christians living 2000 years ago were. We don't get the full version like they did. We don't get to converse with the Apostles ourselves, we don't get the chance to ask them what they meant when they were writing their epistles and Gospels, and what else Jesus taught them. People like Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp, on the other hand, did.

8. Yet they had different views on what constitutes true christianity. Historical accounts prove Polycarp kept the Passover on the 14th of Nisan. The same date Jesus and the rest of the original apostles kept. . So whose teachings do we follow--Polycarp's or Ignatius'? Are you beginning to see behind the veil of your faulty reasoning?

If you wish to understand the fullness of the Christian message, you HAVE to look at more than just the Bible. You have to look at how the Apostles and their students expounded on it if you wish to understand the Apostolic faith, and not get led to false doctrine.

9. Polycarp didn't think so.

You'll understand if I like to use more than just one primary source to get a good, balanced and more accurate understanding of what the Apostles taught and believed, and what they were teaching their students, free of your own personal bias. It's also a good practice for history and sociology in general. You should try it sometime.

10. So what youre saying is that we have personal biases but the apostles' students did not? See point 8.

Here, have a look at everything leading up to verses 9 and 10. I'll walk through it with you.

11. Thanks but no thanks. I can read, think, and reason for myself.

Where in God's green earth are you getting that interpretation from? Seriously, one megalomaniac in one parish does not give ANY evidence to this great "falling away," much less to this:

12. Oh it was more than one megalomaniacal schmuck who deceived many over time:

2Co 11:5 But I don't consider myself inferior in any way to these "super apostles" who teach such things.

2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.

2Co 11:26 in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

2Pe 2:1-2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

2Ti 1:15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. [only two are mentioned, but there could have been more]

Jud 1:4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.​

I'd like to see evidence for the bold, BTW. Anything you've got.

13. Be glad to..In the book of Acts we find that God's Church celebrated "Jewish" holy days (Acts 2:1; 13:14, 42, 44; 18:21), talked about the return of Jesus Christ to judge the world (Acts 3:20–21; 17:31) and believed in the literal establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth (Acts 1:3, 6; 28:23). These are just some of the teachings that were slowly, methodically, and craftily stamped out, replaced by pagan practices and/or allegorized. These heretical teachings got so bad that Polycarp confronted Anicetus about at least one issue. But Polycarp’s efforts to proclaim the truth of the Passover date (Abib 14) were useless against the rising tide of paganism infiltrating what was considered the true Church at the time. Those keeping the faith once delivered by Christ and the original Apostles were labeled "judaizers" and eventually ostracized. Essentially paving the way for the "new and improved" form of Christianity you see today!!

Christ's and the Apostles' teachings can be found in more than just the Bible. The faith taught by Christ.

14. Of course it can. But one would have to confirm it with scripture, as evidenced by the Bereans. They confirmed everything Paul said with scripture and he actually complimented them for it (Act 17:11).

No, you're reading way too much into my words. "His Word"=/=Sola Scriptura. It'd be much appreciated if you didn't try reading your own arguments and points into mine. It doesn't make you look very good. Just a friendly piece of advice, from one neighbor to another.

15. Really I'm not. I am merely pointing out your fallacious inconsistencies. It's there for all to see and it doesn't make you look very good. Just a friendly piece of advice, from one neighbor to another. We're getting off topic. So this will be my last response. Unless of course, you have something to add about the trinity.

 

[CG Didymus]

This thread is so long. I don't know if this has already been discussed, but I'm reading books on early Church history and all I'm finding is heresy after heresy of questioning the Trinity. The "orthodox" view excommunicated or exiled those with opposing views? Well, no wonder the Church came up with the Trinity being the truth. So what is the reality of the Trinity? That councils decided it. I'm supposed to believe them, and that's that? Is Jesus the same substance as God? Really? How would they know? It's a good guess. It fits in with what they wanted to preach, but it don't mean it's true. No, people made up the Trinity to make Christianity what they wanted it to become.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Arius taught: God is unbegotten and without beginning. The Son, because he is begotten cannot be God in the sense that the Father is. The Son did not exist from all eternity but was created and exists by the will of the Father.

Arius thinking was in harmony with Jesus being a heavenly creation- Revelation 3 v 14

 

[Muffled]

So then, are you a Nestorian, believing that God possessed the body of the man Jesus, thus two persons, each with their own separate nature, in one body?

I agree with the church in that the divine nature can not be added to by a physical nature. Monophysitism holds that he had but a single nature, his human nature being absorbed into his divinity - Wikipedia under the heading Nestorianism.

I believe that there is no disunity between the spirit of God and the physical body but I do believe each nature has a will of its own. The doctrine ... emphasizes the disunion between the human and divine natures of Jesus. Wikipedia under the heading Nestorianism.

I don't believe the conclusion follows from the premise. It appears to me from the text that the problem was not that the Spirit of God dwelt in Jesus but that the Nestorians thought there was a disunity of the two. However possession of a body does not infer two persons. I believe everyone has a spirit in his body and the combiantion makes one person or soul as the Bible terms it. I believe there are enough texts available to show that the physical nature of Jesus sometimes runs contrary to His spirtual nature.

 

[Muffled]

Proverbs 8 says there is a master worker--and he was produced as the beginning of Gods ways( created directly by God, first and last) the hardest work ever done was creation--God created all other things through Jesus( who was born Michael the archangel in heaven)

I believe It says that wisdom is the master worker but the implication is that wisdom proceeded from God ie that it is part of His nature and should not be personified allthough I will allow Solomon to do it for the poetry of it.

I believe It says nothing about being produced. It simply states that it was there. I believe since only God was there before creation then it makes sense that wisdom is part of God's nature.

I believe Jesus did not exist at the creation. Only the Spirit of God existed at the creation. I believe the only way Jesus is tied to the creation is by the Spirit of God within Him.

I believe this is total imagination and that there is no evidence to support it.

 

[Muffled]

Quite the opposite is truth. The JW,s are the only ones who listen to Jesus and apply.

I am sure that you believe that but I believe as I have stated. However I will listen to whatever evidence you can provide to support your belief if you have any.

 

[Muffled]

Proverbs isn't talking about Jesus, because the author could not have known of Jesus, since he hadn't been born yet. It's always a huge mistake to read Jesus into any OT passage.

I believe the problem here is the word "always." I believe there is legitimacy in attributing prophetic fulfillment to Jesus.

However I believe that Jesus is God in the flesh so that the wisdom of God of which Solomon speaks is present in Jesus.

 

[kjw47]

I believe It says that wisdom is the master worker but the implication is that wisdom proceeded from God ie that it is part of His nature and should not be personified allthough I will allow Solomon to do it for the poetry of it.

I believe It says nothing about being produced. It simply states that it was there. I believe since only God was there before creation then it makes sense that wisdom is part of God's nature.

I believe Jesus did not exist at the creation. Only the Spirit of God existed at the creation. I believe the only way Jesus is tied to the creation is by the Spirit of God within Him.

I believe this is total imagination and that there is no evidence to support it.

Prov 8:30-- Then i came to be beside him as a master worker,i came to be the one he( God) was especially fond of day by day, i being glad before him all the time. ) this is definitely a being. It is Michael( Jesus)

 

[Muffled]

Prov 8:30-- Then i came to be beside him as a master worker,i came to be the one he( God) was especially fond of day by day, i being glad before him all the time. ) this is definitely a being. It is Michael( Jesus)

I believe you still don't have a shred of evidence to support this view which makes your concept that it is definite null and void.

 

[Shiranui117]

Prov 8:30-- Then i came to be beside him as a master worker,i came to be the one he( God) was especially fond of day by day, i being glad before him all the time. ) this is definitely a being. It is Michael( Jesus)

So you think that the ultra-vague "master worker" automatically means Michael, completely ignoring that this "master worker" was with God from eternity, and wasn't a created being (i.e. not an angel)? Aww, I can't find any argument against that at all!

 

[kjw47]

So you think that the ultra-vague "master worker" automatically means Michael, completely ignoring that this "master worker" was with God from eternity, and wasn't a created being (i.e. not an angel)? Aww, I can't find any argument against that at all!

Proverbs 8:20 says--this being was produced as the beginning of his ways( creation) God created Michael( Jesus) directly( first and last)-- all other things were created through him--making him the master worker.

 

[InChrist]

Proverbs 8:20 says--this being was produced as the beginning of his ways( creation) God created Michael( Jesus) directly( first and last)-- all other things were created through him--making him the master worker.

I believe the context shows Proverbs 8 is speaking about wisdom, not the creation of Jesus or an angel.

Does not wisdom cry out,
And understanding lift up her voice?
2 She takes her stand on the top of the high hill,
Beside the way, where the paths meet.
3 She cries out by the gates, at the entry of the city,
At the entrance of the doors:
4 “To you, O men, I call,
And my voice is to the sons of men.
5 O you simple ones, understand prudence,
And you fools, be of an understanding heart.
6 Listen, for I will speak of excellent things,
And from the opening of my lips will come right things;
7 For my mouth will speak truth;
Wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8 All the words of my mouth are with righteousness;
Nothing crooked or perverse is in them.
9 They are all plain to him who understands,
And right to those who find knowledge.
10 Receive my instruction, and not silver,
And knowledge rather than choice gold;
11 For wisdom is better than rubies,
And all the things one may desire cannot be compared with her. 12 “I, wisdom, dwell with prudence,
And find out knowledge and discretion.
13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil;
Pride and arrogance and the evil way
And the perverse mouth I hate.
14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom;
I am understanding, I have strength.
15 By me kings reign,
And rulers decree justice.
16 By me princes rule, and nobles,
All the judges of the earth.
17 I love those who love me,
And those who seek me diligently will find me.
18 Riches and honor are with me,
Enduring riches and righteousness.
19 My fruit is better than gold, yes, than fine gold,
And my revenue than choice silver.
20 I traverse the way of righteousness,
In the midst of the paths of justice,
21 That I may cause those who love me to inherit wealth,
That I may fill their treasuries.

22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
23 I have been established from everlasting,
From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills, I was brought forth;
26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields,
Or the primal dust of the world.
27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there,
When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He established the clouds above,
When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
29 When He assigned to the sea its limit,
So that the waters would not transgress His command,
When He marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in His inhabited world,
And my delight was with the sons of men.

32 “Now therefore, listen to me, my children,
For blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction and be wise,
And do not disdain it.
34 Blessed is the man who listens to me,
Watching daily at my gates,
Waiting at the posts of my doors.
35 For whoever finds me finds life,
And obtains favor from the Lord;
36 But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul;
All those who hate me love death.”

 

[Shiranui117]

Proverbs 8:20 says--this being was produced as the beginning of his ways( creation) God created Michael( Jesus) directly( first and last)-- all other things were created through him--making him the master worker.

What InChrist said. Plus, even if Proverbs 8 DOES refer to Jesus, it STILL describes Him as being eternal.

22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

In other words, God had Wisdom before He made ANYTHING. Before He made humanity, before He made the earth, before He made even the angels--and that includes Michael.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/interlinear-bible/strongs.ashx?ll=h&t=kjv&sn=04659

23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Wisdom was set up from everlasting. Take a look at the definitions given for the Hebrew word:

long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world

1. ancient time, long time (of past)
2. (of future)
   1. for ever, always
   2. continuous existence, perpetual
   3. everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

In other words, Wisdom ALWAYS EXISTED. It has NO beginning. There was never a time when Wisdom was not. And why would there be? To say otherwise would be to say that there was a time when God had no Wisdom.

 

[The Real Milk Man]

I hope this helps:

1 Cor. 1:24, 30 (NKJV), "but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God." "But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God--"



In the love of Christ, sincerely, The Real Milk Man.

God loves you, and I do too!

Whatever is the overflow of the heart, is what comes out of the mouth.

 

[icebuddy]

i have been writing notes in my bible since 1997 and heres what i wrote in proverbs 8

Wisdom is a personification of the virtue of wisdom for the purpose of emphisis of impact. Wisdom was brought forth (Not created) to play a role in creation.

Too my Kids - some people believe wisdom is Jesus and use words like "Produced me at the beginning" to elude one to think wisdom and Jesus were created. Well First off God has always possessed Wisdom and just brought it forth when needed, yet always having it. Second, Jesus is the Eternal Word of life (1John 1:1-5). not to mention wisdom is called "Sister" (Pro 7:4) and She and Her throughout Proverbs. Are we to think out King Jesus is a woman or that God had to create wisdom for himself? Notice that Wisdom and Prudence live together at Proverbs 8:12. Who is Prudence?

Gods Wisdom is as eternal as God himself, never was he without wisdom. Proverbs never says God was without wisdom but rather brought it forth and never does it say that this is Jesus. Could we not say that Jesus also brought forth wisdom during creation as well?

In Love,
Tom

 

[sojourner]

I believe the problem here is the word "always." I believe there is legitimacy in attributing prophetic fulfillment to Jesus.

However I believe that Jesus is God in the flesh so that the wisdom of God of which Solomon speaks is present in Jesus.

There is merit in attributing prophetic fulfillment to Jesus in a theological and doctrinal context, but not in an exegetical context. IOW, you can say, "I believe Jesus is the fulfillment of OT prophecy." But you can't take an OT passage and use it as a proof, saying, "See! They're talking about Jesus there!" Because they aren't talking about Jesus. Only hindsight is 20/20.